Greg Cosell: With Cassel at QB, Pats have below-average offense

[Deus Irae]

How about you understand the word "at the start of training camp" He should have gotten somebody like Sage Rosenfeld, Tim Rattay, or that guy who playd for te Browns and Bills..I forget his name, but he is servicable. The mistake by Belichick was not having a guy already on the roster in April-June.

How about you learn what a backup quarterback's role is supposed to be? Then, how about you peruse all the games played so far this season with backup quarterbacks (except the Patriots games) at the helm and tell us what the record is for the team with the backup. Feel free to include the game that the mighty Sage gas-piped.

 

[Nunchucks]

What did "at the start of training camp" have to do with what I said?
Hello????

Gotta luv your absolutely horrific example of Rosenkrantz as our backup, a doofus who single handedly LOST a game that was won by his team, the absolute antithethis of BB's successful winning game management approach.

Well, you were talking about trading for Garcia...I didn't even mention that, but thanks for putting words in my post. I see, the guy plays well for most of the game then makes a bonehead play and he is crap? You can coach a guy to hold onto the ball and slide......

So, you are against my specific critisim because Rosenfield, a single example of jag quarterbacks I brought up made a bonehead play?


interesting rebuttel to be sure.

 

[Nunchucks]

How about you learn what a backup quarterback's role is supposed to be? Then, how about you peruse all the games played so far this season with backup quarterbacks (except the Patriots games) at the helm and tell us what the record is for the team with the backup. Feel free to include the game that the mighty Sage gas-piped.

I realize that teams are supposed to suck if the backup comes in, I just didn't realize that we ha to all accept that suckage with a smile.

Dallas backup - Tony Romo, Bengals backup Jon Kitna (remember when he backed up Palmer?), Green Bay backup (Matt Hasselbeck)....JT O'Sulivan isn't awful, Trent Edwards in Buffalo.......

I think the point is that you can have a servicable backup that can win games if the rest of the team is stacked.....the pats offense has the tools, just nobody to put them to use....at least the craftsman hasn't been doing a very good job.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Well, you were talking about trading for Garcia...I didn't even mention that, but thanks for putting words in my post. I see, the guy plays well for most of the game then makes a bonehead play and he is crap? You can coach a guy to hold onto the ball and slide......

So, you are against my specific critisim because Rosenfield, a single example of jag quarterbacks I brought up made a bonehead play?


interesting rebuttel to be sure.

The Garcia etc. example (PRIOR to training camp - HELLO!!!!) was a repost from earlier in the thread, which obviously you did not read. Why let data affect your fixed opinion, eh?

As to Rosenfeld, you need to watch football games, TWO bonehead plays not "one bonehead play". Exactly my point. Obviously lost on you.

finally see Deus' points on how well those vaunted vets actually DID on the football field. In case you've been away, Cassel is 3-2 with an OL that has become unable to protect ANY QB.

 

[Clonamery]

I realize that teams are supposed to suck if the backup comes in, I just didn't realize that we ha to all accept that suckage with a smile.

Dallas backup - Tony Romo, Bengals backup Jon Kitna (remember when he backed up Palmer?), Green Bay backup (Matt Hasselbeck)....JT O'Sulivan isn't awful, Trent Edwards in Buffalo.......

I think the point is that you can have a servicable backup that can win games if the rest of the team is stacked.....the pats offense has the tools, just nobody to put them to use....at least the craftsman hasn't been doing a very good job.

Please stop....your ignorance is bringing down the whole board. Where the heck is maryjane?

 

[Nunchucks]

The Garcia etc. example (PRIOR to training camp - HELLO!!!!) was a repost from earlier in the thread, which obviously you did not read. Why let data affect your fixed opinion, eh?

As to Rosenfeld, you need to watch football games, TWO bonehead plays not "one bonehead play". Exactly my point. Obviously lost on you.

finally see Deus' points on how well those vaunted vets actually DID on the football field. In case you've been away, Cassel is 3-2 with an OL that has become unable to protect ANY QB.

Actually, I watched most of the Texans-Colts game..thought he played very well for most of it. I didn't realize I had to go back and read posts that I did not participate in, why the hostility? Relax man, chill out.

The OL is better than Cassel makes them look IMO.

Teams the Patriots beat

KC
Jets
49ers

I understand that every team in the NFL is tough, but lets not get carried away.

 

[Nunchucks]

Please stop....your ignorance is bringing down the whole board. Where the heck is maryjane?

Please tell me exactly what I am ignorant of, banket statements with nothing to back it up are quite amusing, but generally don't convey many actual facts.

 

[Deus Irae]

I realize that teams are supposed to suck if the backup comes in, I just didn't realize that we ha to all accept that suckage with a smile.

Dallas backup - Tony Romo, Bengals backup Jon Kitna (remember when he backed up Palmer?), Green Bay backup (Matt Hasselbeck)....JT O'Sulivan isn't awful, Trent Edwards in Buffalo.......

I think the point is that you can have a servicable backup that can win games if the rest of the team is stacked.....the pats offense has the tools, just nobody to put them to use....at least the craftsman hasn't been doing a very good job.

1.) O'Sullivan is the starter in SF, not the backup. He's got his team at 2-4, largely because he keeps giving out interceptions to the opponents as if they were candies on halloween. His career passer rating is 72.6, with 8 tds and 10 ints.

2.) Kitna was a "backup" because the Bengals drafted Carson Palmer with the #1 overall pick while Kitna was still under contract. Not surprisingly, Kitna moved on and became a starter again elsewhere.

3.) Trent Edwards was a 3rd round DRAFT PICK in Buffalo last season. He got into the games largely due to injury to Losman. Losman got his job back again in the same season for a little while, because Edwards wasn't ready. In other words, Edwards was the equivalent to O'Connell. Edwards, for the record, has thrown 11 tds and 10 ints in his career, and has a passer rating of 77.7.

I could go on, but these 3 pretty much show why your point misses the mark, unless your suggestion is that Belioli should have found a way to draft Matt Ryan (in which case, you've got a host of other issues to deal with). However, citing the multi-concussed Green as a viable alternative, particularly given his performance in the one game he played this season, did give me a chuckle, so thanks for that one.

 

[fumbrunner]

What did "at the start of training camp" have to do with what I said?
Hello????

Gotta luv your absolutely horrific example of Rosenkrantz as our backup, a doofus who single handedly LOST a game that was won by his team, the absolute antithethis of BB's successful winning game management approach.

Sage's blowup notwithstanding, the guy had a good year last year coming in for Shaub.

 

[Nunchucks]

1.) O'Sullivan is the starter in SF, not the backup. He's got his team at 2-4, largely because he keeps giving out interceptions to the opponents as if they were candies on halloween. His career passer rating is 72.6, with 8 tds and 10 ints.

2.) Kitna was a "backup" because the Bengals drafted Carson Palmer with the #1 overall pick while Kitna was still under contract. Not surprisingly, Kitna moved on and became a starter again elsewhere.

3.) Trent Edwards was a 3rd round DRAFT PICK in Buffalo last season. He got into the games largely due to injury to Losman. Losman got his job back again in the same season for a little while, because Edwards wasn't ready. In other words, Edwards was the equivalent to O'Connell. Edwards, for the record, has thrown 11 tds and 10 ints in his career, and has a passer rating of 77.7.

I could go on, but these 3 pretty much show why your point misses the mark, unless your suggestion is that Belioli should have found a way to draft Matt Ryan (in which case, you've got a host of other issues to deal with). However, citing the multi-concussed Green as a viable alternative, particularly given his performance in the one game he played this season, did give me a chuckle, so thanks for that one.

Those are examples, there were guys on the street that could play QB for a talented team and win. I wonder what round O'Connel was drafted in.

I also think that you miss the point that all those teams don't have Belichick as the head coach, Randy Moss as the number 1 WR and Wes Welker in the slot.

Just to be clear, you don't think Belichick should have brought in a Jouneyman QB at the start of TC to compete for the backup job?

Because none of those guys would be better than Cassel is atm?

 

[BelizePats]

Its not always so black and white and for many of the posters here, and their perceptions of what should be done or should have been done, they have the benefit of hingsight in shaping their opinions. The coaching staff does not.
I feel that BB and SP did make a mistake in having someone with so little experience positioned as Brady's back up. But I also recongize that in many respects, their hands were tied.
It's noy like there are a lot of quality back ups just floating around like so many of you think. Before yesterdays game, Brad Johnson was being held up as the holy grail of back up QB's. How did that work out fot the Cowboys in St Louis? What do you think happens to the Colts if Manning misses any sustantial time? Is Sorgi going to cut it? Probably not! And who of the quality back ups, if there are any, want to sign here when, given Bradys history, that they will get virtually no playing time because he hadn't been hurt very often? Todd Collins did very well getting the Redskins into the playoffs last year as the back up to Jason Campbell. What happened to him? Did he even get near the open market? NO! The Skins paid him handsomely (3 years and 9 million) to stay in Washington.
There just aren't alot of good QB's in the NFL and there are even less good back ups. To think that a journeyman can just come here and pick up a new system and then excel in it when Brady goes down is just crazy!
Cassel has been in the system for 4 years and he's done ok. His Oline sure hasn't helped him. His running game has not really helped him and McDaniels play calling hasn't exactly helped him a whole hell of a lot either! His defence hasn't given him many short fields to work with by forcing tunrovers, or getting off the field on 3rd down.
Am I thriilled with his play? NO!
But, Cassel is doing about as well as can be expected. I had hoped the rest of the team would have played better and helped him out more. And the notion that KO should come in and play is merely illustrating that there are a lot of ignorant arm chair quarterbacks out there who simply don't uderstand the pro game. KO is not ready. If he was, he might be out there playing. This is a young guy who, while having the tools, is still so green that the game is going by at a million miles an hour for him. How thoroughly does he know his playbook? Are his progressions in practice the right ones? Is he focused and developing in the Patriots offensive system? And yet there are people on this board who don't know the answers to these three questions who are sreaming for him to play on sundays? How is this even possible?
4 years in the NFL, practicing, learning how to be a professional quarterback, studying film, being tutored by one of the best to ever play the game or a first year guy from a relatively small school who has never thrown a ball in the NFL, other than some limited pre season games?
Its not a hard chioce for the coach!

 

[DW Toys]

Re: Greg Cosell:With Cassel at QB, Pats have below-average offense

Happy to spell it out for you-

Cassell, no pocket presence, immobile, not sharp, wilts under pressure, average arm combined with a crappy Oline this is disaster


KO- quick, can move around, good pocket presence, rocket arm, exciting



shouldn't the rest of this year be spent developing KO and give the fans some excitement and something to cheer for

Good post . Agreed. Cassel is not going to get any better. He is gone after this year. Why waste time? Lets give KO a shot. Why waste a third rounder? Does he have to wait until TB hurts himself to get a shot in the future?

Cassel has the best receivers in the NFL. His sacks were on him for at least 10 of the twenty. It's his vision that is telling. I have bagged this season. A wild card for this team is the Super Bowl.

I think the "D" has tanked it too because they lack confidence in the "O". Wilfork, Seymour and Warren have been mediocre. Not grabbing a top vet Safety is killing them. Sanders has been lousy, Harrison is lacking consistency, Merriweather is the best but still learning. A guy like Gabril Wilson looked decent for the Raiders yesterday. He is not the next coming of Ed Reed but he would have helped. Vrabel has looked out of position alot and Thomas has looked slow.

How big is Freeney? How big Tuck? Why can't Crable get a shot at about 256 lbs. We need a pass rusher desperately.

DW Toys

 

[Deus Irae]

Those are examples, there were guys on the street that could play QB for a talented team and win. I wonder what round O'Connel was drafted in.

You chose the examples, not me. They undercut your own argument.

I also think that you miss the point that all those teams don't have Belichick as the head coach, Randy Moss as the number 1 WR and Wes Welker in the slot.

I'm not missing that point at all. Actually, you're the one who's criticizing Belichick by claiming he made a mistake, yet you're now citing him as a strength, which is a bit hypocritical. I fully realize everything you've said, just as I realize that the quarterback you're pissing and moaning about has the team at 3-2 going into tonight's game.

Just to be clear, you don't think Belichick should have brought in a Jouneyman QB at the start of TC to compete for the backup job?

Go take a look at the quarterbacks who were free at the start of training camp. Feel free to rate them as high as you wish. Then take a look at whether they are still unemployed and how well they are doing if they have NFL jobs.

Because none of those guys would be better than Cassel is atm?

How can I put this politely?

Many people thought that Cassel was going to be cut, with 100% certainty, at some point prior to the season. Gutz and O'Connell were clearly much better players, they insisted. Well, that didn't happen. So, why do I bring this up in the context of your question and talk about it being a polite way of putting things?

I bring it up because the majority of people who post on this messageboard still don't seem to understand how things work with the Patriots, even after all these years, and your comments indicate that you are a member of that group.

 

[Nunchucks]

Re: Greg Cosell:With Cassel at QB, Pats have below-average offense

Good post . Agreed. Cassel is not going to get any better. He is gone after this year. Why waste time? Lets give KO a shot. Why waste a third rounder? Does he have to wait until TB hurts himself to get a shot in the future?

Cassel has the best receivers in the NFL. His sacks were on him for at least 10 of the twenty. It's his vision that is telling. I have bagged this season. A wild card for this team is the Super Bowl.

I think the "D" has tanked it too because they lack confidence in the "O". Wilfork, Seymour and Warren have been mediocre. Not grabbing a top vet Safety is killing them. Sanders has been lousy, Harrison is lacking consistency, Merriweather is the best but still learning. A guy like Gabril Wilson looked decent for the Raiders yesterday. He is not the next coming of Ed Reed but he would have helped. Vrabel has looked out of position alot and Thomas has looked slow.

How big is Freeney? How big Tuck? Why can't Crable get a shot at about 256 lbs. We need a pass rusher desperately.

DW Toys

Well, at this point Belichick believes that Cassel gives the patriots the best chance to win and I am not going to think Belichick is wrong. I would rather the Patriots play with a roster that gives them the best chance to win each week than mail in the season with a QB they think isn't as good as Cassel.

 

[fumbrunner]

Folks, it is what it is. There was no free agent QB signing in training camp, there was no trade leading up to the trade deadline, O'Connell is nowhere close to being ready as a rookie. We sink or swim with Cassel, plain and simple. Hope for the best every week and hopefully by the end of the year, we have enough wins to squeek into the playoffs. Not much else to expect. Hope the O line and overall D improves, and hope that Maroney puts in a second half of the season that is comparable to last year. I know that is alot of "ifs" and "hope", but what can you do?

 

[Nunchucks]

You chose the examples, not me. They undercut your own argument.

I don't think they were awful examples, they are mediocre QBs having some success or have had some success on mediocre teams. These guys ar out there and can be had for near the vet minimum.

I'm not missing that point at all. Actually, you're the one who's criticizing Belichick by claiming he made a mistake, yet you're now citing him as a strength, which is a bit hypocritical. I fully realize everything you've said, just as I realize that the quarterback you're pissing and moaning about has the team at 3-2 going into tonight's game.

Why can't great coaches be allowed to make a mistake? Belichick rolled the heavily loaded dice and lost, we can't really blame him for that too much, but at the same time, why can't we comment? Why can't we say "this is where the mistake was made and this is how we can guard against it in the future"

Why do you people keep falling back to this same nonsense? Go take a look at the quarterbacks who were free at the start of training camp. Feel free to rate them as high as you wish. Then take a look at whether they are still unemployed and how well they are doing if they have NFL jobs.

I believe you can put mediocre players on the patriots and coach them up, I believe that a QB with marginal skills or just flat isn't good enough to start on many teams could start and have decent success with the patriots.

How can I put this politely?

Many people thought that Cassel was going to be cut, with 100% certainty, at some point prior to the season. Gutz and O'Connell were clearly much better players, they insisted. Well, that didn't happen. So, why do I bring this up in the context of your question and talk about it being a polite way of putting things?

I bring it up because the majority of people who post on this messageboard still don't seem to understand how things work with the Patriots, even after all these years, and your comments indicate that you are a member of that group.

I was shocked when Matt was picked over GUT,but believe it or not, I trust Belichick to mak the correct decisions even though he lost the dice roll on this one.

I am just providing commentary on what I think of the situation and how with hindsight this issue could have been avoided...because I am a fan and it is interesting to me.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think they were awful examples, they are mediocre QBs having some success or have had some success on mediocre teams. These guys ar out there and can be had for near the vet minimum.

Your argument was about them being backups. You ignored the obvious similarities in the paths of Romo and Cassel, ignored the #1 pick drafted in Cincinnati, and you ignored the reality that O'Sullivan is just about as raw as Cassel and has done a poorer job at getting his team wins. You ignored that Cassel has beaten out Flutie and Vinnie for the job. You ignored Sage's horrible game against the Colts, as well as the fact that he's under contract and was under contract in the offseason. You ignored the fact that Rattay is out of football, meaning 32 teams don't want him, or don't view him as sufficiently of value to add to their team. This applies to the mighty Daunte, as well.

Why can't great coaches be allowed to make a mistake? Belichick rolled the heavily loaded dice and lost, we can't really blame him for that too much, but at the same time, why can't we comment? Why can't we say "this is where the mistake was made and this is how we can guard against it in the future"

Your argument assumes you know what you're talking about. Your evidence indicates that you don't.

I believe you can put mediocre players on the patriots and coach them up, I believe that a QB with marginal skills or just flat isn't good enough to start on many teams could start and have decent success with the patriots.

Yet you cite to J.T. O'Sullivan as an example?

I was shocked when Matt was picked over GUT,but believe it or not, I trust Belichick to mak the correct decisions even though he lost the dice roll on this one.

No, obviously you don't trust him, and you keep making claims that have no basis in reality. I have two words for you: Jim Sorgi

I am just providing commentary on what I think of the situation and how with hindsight this issue could have been avoided...because I am a fan and it is interesting to me.

No, you're being a whining Chicken Little, who's bleating about the play of a backup quarterback that's got the team at 3-2, and in early position to make the playoffs. Like so many others here, you're so quick to jump on the team that you don't bother to actually take a look around the league, and you've become so spoiled by this team's success that you have lost the ability to be rational about any adversity at all.

 

[Nunchucks]

Actualy, I watch a lot of football, even watch other teams play. JT O'Sullivan ain't that bad, its the actual team around him....I don't see why you keep on underrating the talent on the patriots and overrating the talent across the league. This is a team that went undefeated during the regular season. They have high expectations and because of that, they should have pepared to be competitive at every position, which is something they failed to do.

I find it interesting that you keep on telling me what I believe, what I know and how I feel. I suppose the attacks keep coming because I disagree with you in thinking that Belichick made an actual mistake. Obviously, me thinking he made a mistake means I think he is an awful coach

I will agree that I am a little bit whiney, but a chicken? Really? What about my position makes me a chicken? Is it because I don't just go along with the party line? Is it because I am having this arguement with you?

Perhaps the real chickens are the ones who sing campfire songs, pass out cheerup champ cards and tell eachother that 3-2 is a good record when you've payed the 5 worst teams in the league.

I love the patriots, but don't piss on me and tell me it is raining

 

[Deus Irae]

Actualy, I watch a lot of football, even watch other teams play. JT O'Sullivan ain't that bad, its the actual team around him....I don't see why you keep on underrating the talent on the patriots and overrating the talent across the league. This is a team that went undefeated during the regular season. They have high expectations and because of that, they should have pepared to be competitive at every position, which is something they failed to do.

Now this comment is just ignorant.

I find it interesting that you keep on telling me what I believe, what I know and how I feel. I suppose the attacks keep coming because I disagree with you in thinking that Belichick made an actual mistake. Obviously, me thinking he made a mistake means I think he is an awful coach

You should try reading what I posted. It might make your answers a little more sensible. Your argument is that BB made a mistake. You base this upon your own opinion/belief. Your examples don't work, and you use the man you claim made a mistake as a reason that we should lessen Cassel's status and magnify this theoretical mistake. Getting called on that should have been expected.

I will agree that I am a little bit whiney, but a chicken? Really? What about my position makes me a chicken? Is it because I don't just go along with the party line? Is it because I am having this arguement with you?

Perhaps the real chickens are the ones who sing campfire songs, pass out cheerup champ cards and tell eachother that 3-2 is a good record when you've payed the 5 worst teams in the league.

I love the patriots, but don't piss on me and tell me it is raining

Perhaps you should check into what is meant by "Chicken Little". And if you really think that the Patriots have played the 5 worst teams in the NFL, I don't know what to tell you, other than to say that we have a major disagreement about that as well.

 

[crowell33]

Re: Greg Cosell:With Cassel at QB, Pats have below-average offense

Good post . Agreed. Cassel is not going to get any better. He is gone after this year. Why waste time? Lets give KO a shot. Why waste a third rounder? Does he have to wait until TB hurts himself to get a shot in the future?

Cassel has the best receivers in the NFL. His sacks were on him for at least 10 of the twenty. It's his vision that is telling. I have bagged this season. A wild card for this team is the Super Bowl.

I think the "D" has tanked it too because they lack confidence in the "O". Wilfork, Seymour and Warren have been mediocre. Not grabbing a top vet Safety is killing them. Sanders has been lousy, Harrison is lacking consistency, Merriweather is the best but still learning. A guy like Gabril Wilson looked decent for the Raiders yesterday. He is not the next coming of Ed Reed but he would have helped. Vrabel has looked out of position alot and Thomas has looked slow.

How big is Freeney? How big Tuck? Why can't Crable get a shot at about 256 lbs. We need a pass rusher desperately.

DW Toys

Great Post..........agree 100%.