Idle thoughts - the you can't win edition.

[sambam94]

On point 7: Was I the only one that thought the Enunwa TD was incorrectly reversed. I was positive that his right elbow hit out of bounds at the same time as his butt landed in bounds. Physically when you fall backwards you use your elbows, when you can, to cushion the fall. Yes he had a ball in this hands that restricted their use somewhat, but he landed more on his right side, emphasizing the likelihood of elbow grounding at same time as backside. Even if the film was inconclusive on that point, it should have raised enough uncertainty to declare insufficient evidence to overturn the play.

I am less convinced but still in slight doubt about the overturn of White's 2-pt conversion as it appeared that his foot hit out of bounds at the same time as the nose of the ball penetrated the end-zone line. Again it was hard to tell for sure since the angle is from above rather than side, so knowing when the foot stepped out is hard to determine. Again I am tempted to suggest that here again there was insufficient evidence to overturn the call, though less so than in the previous case.

Still we won, and I should reserve my complaints for more egregious calls. I would like to celebrate, however, the return of the takeaway. Great plays by both Butler and Long, and a welcome break of an unwanted streak.

I watched reply in slow-mo and I did think his butt hit first..

 

[rochrist]

--Disagree that the running game "wasn't much at all." The Pats have had trouble closing out games in recent years, great to see the defense make a play and the offense close it out. That's what's supposed to happen.

--The Pats have been "lucky" healthwise this year (knock wood), in the sense that there's not a lot of guys on IR. But damn if the offense isn't gimpy right now. Great that Mitchell has stepped up, I'm in his fan club like most others here, and can't wait to see the guy in Year 2, 3, and beyond. But for now, Brady, Gronk, Bennett, Edelman, Hogan, are all hobbling to one degree or another. If playing doesn't make their injuries worse (and of course in a sense of course resting is better) then I suppose they'll keep plugging along, but I sure as hell hope this is a healthy team in the playoffs. Really want to see that.

--Derby isn't hindsight, I think most didn't like the deal at the time. Watching the Denver game, every time I heard "Derby" was irritating.

--Pass rush. Like Ghost, I think we're just going to have to cross our fingers and hope it does its job when the time comes. Yesterday Long made a play. Keep hope alive.

--OT Tip for the NFL: get rid of the commercial break after kickoffs. It's painful. Fold those commercials into other breaks throughout the game.

Yeah, Derby is looking very good for them.

 

[PF_SU]

I was impressed by Chris Long's poise on the strip-sack. He showed his experience and veteran status right there. A younger, less experienced, player might have tried to light up Fitzpatrick for a big hit, but Long waited until Fitzpatrick fully exposed the ball when ****ing it back and then hit the arm. Reminded me of the strip-sack Terrell Suggs had a few weeks ago where he likewise in a split-second decided to wait for the hit until the QB exposed the ball.

 

[PatsDeb]

On this point, I don't think the problem there was that James White wasn't fast enough, shifty enough, or smart enough... I thought the problem was that Solder was out in front and basically whiffed on the block that would have made it a walk in. I know I'm probably asking too much of a guy his size, but that was the whole design of the play. He gets even a half more hand on the defender and any one of us could have walked that in too.

Yes. Solder completely missed his block, forcing White to cut more to the outside than was intended. I was pretty surprised they overturned the deuce as it looked like the ball went over the pylon as his feet went out of bounds, but that bare miss was on Solder, not White.

 

[PatsDeb]

On point 7: Was I the only one that thought the Enunwa TD was incorrectly reversed. I was positive that his right elbow hit out of bounds at the same time as his butt landed in bounds. Physically when you fall backwards you use your elbows, when you can, to cushion the fall. Yes he had a ball in this hands that restricted their use somewhat, but he landed more on his right side, emphasizing the likelihood of elbow grounding at same time as backside. Even if the film was inconclusive on that point, it should have raised enough uncertainty to declare insufficient evidence to overturn the play.

I am less convinced but still in slight doubt about the overturn of White's 2-pt conversion as it appeared that his foot hit out of bounds at the same time as the nose of the ball penetrated the end-zone line. Again it was hard to tell for sure since the angle is from above rather than side, so knowing when the foot stepped out is hard to determine. Again I am tempted to suggest that here again there was insufficient evidence to overturn the call, though less so than in the previous case.

Still we won, and I should reserve my complaints for more egregious calls. I would like to celebrate, however, the return of the takeaway. Great plays by both Butler and Long, and a welcome break of an unwanted streak.

I thought the TD was good, but so was the 2 pt. conversion.

 

[Buchanty]

I watched reply in slow-mo and I did think his butt hit first..

Fair enough - and thanks Hammer for the video. The point of contact occurs between 1:06 and 1:07, so maybe they saw something in the game film not available in the video. But butt and elbow are in the air at .06 and both on the ground at .07 - again very hard to say which happened first, which goes back to my case of "lacking indisputable evidence then the call stands". If they had called it a TD to begin with, I would have agreed that there wasn't enough evidence to overturn, but it should work both ways.

 

[rochrist]

Just remember what our buddy Dean Blandino said about this just 8 days prior to the yesterday's game:
Blandino: Replay is only intended to fix obvious mistakes

Here is the Enunwa TD. Keep an eye on his rear and his right elbow. Does it look clear to you that his butt hit before his elbow? It's not looking that way to me. I thought this was a poor reversal.



I was sold on the White overturn on the last replay CBS showed. I haven't been able to find that one online yet, though.

Yes, it looked clear to me.
Also, on the White play, it looked to me as though the ball was outside the pylon when he went out. He needed to switch hands.

 

[everlong]

I don't have the actual numbers to verify this perception but it seems like the trend the last four or five games is the Patriots offense is trying early on to establish the short stuff and teams are finally wise to it. anything 10 yards or less and especially 5 yards or less is heavily contested. Once they start hitting stuff in the 10-15 yard range for the point of the reception things open up. I'd like them to come out with Mitchell, Hogan and Gronk and establish those routes earlier and once the LBers back off then hit the underneath.

I didn't think the refs should have overturned that last TD by the Bills. I'm still not sure what hit first his butt in bounds or his right elbow out of bounds. I thought the call on the field should have held either way. Conversely that first spot the Jets challenged was a no brainer. He was clearly short.

 

[Sicilian]

Conversely that first spot the Jets challenged was a no brainer. He was clearly short.

I thought so too, and thought it in real time. I was actually surprised the Patriots didn't think so as well, and not only weren't in a hurry to snap the next play, but ended up having to take a timeout they dallied so long. In general, the offense felt out of sync and out of character early on in this game. I think Brady's injury and missed practice time threw things off more than we'd like to admit.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

I was sold on the White overturn on the last replay CBS showed

The key is his foot went out of bounds prior to the ball crossing the plane of the goal line. Nothing to do with whether the ball was inside or outside of the pylon (as some on twitter are discussing) - for a runner it doesn't matter.

There's a good still here:

Quick calls: Week 12

 

[rochrist]

The key is his foot went out of bounds prior to the ball crossing the plane of the goal line. Nothing to do with whether the ball was inside or outside of the pylon (as some on twitter are discussing) - for a runner it doesn't matter.

There's a good still here:

Quick calls: Week 12

Yes, it does have to do with whether the ball crossed the pylon. If it had been over, or inside the pylon before his foot went out of bounds, then by definition, it has crossed the plane of the goaline.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Yes, it looked clear to me.
Also, on the White play, it looked to me as though the ball was outside the pylon when he went out. He needed to switch hands.

I probably need to check my eyes then. I finally wound up going frame-by-frame and saw a shot at the 0:21 second mark where his butt is on the ground and I can see space between the elbow and the ground. So I'm good with the overturn on that now; I am impressed you could see that in real time.

Agree with you on White - that's what I saw in the replay which is why I was ok with them overturning it; and thanks to SlowGettingUp for the still of that one which verifies what I remember seeing.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Yes, it does have to do with whether the ball crossed the pylon. If it had been over, or inside the pylon before his foot went out of bounds, then by definition, it has crossed the plane of the goaline.

I agree. But the confusion comes with the ball crossing the plane while still outside the pylon. For a runner that is not out of bounds, that is determined to be a touchdown. That's distinct from what happened here.

 

[everlong]

I thought so too, and thought it in real time. I was actually surprised the Patriots didn't think so as well, and not only weren't in a hurry to snap the next play, but ended up having to take a timeout they dallied so long. In general, the offense felt out of sync and out of character early on in this game. I think Brady's injury and missed practice time threw things off more than we'd like to admit.

Agreed on in real time and shocked they didn't run up to get a snap off.

 

[The Brandon Five]

I agree. But the confusion comes with the ball crossing the plane while still outside the pylon. For a runner that is not out of bounds, that is determined to be a touchdown. That's distinct from what happened here.

Wasn't White airborne when he crossed the goal-line? His right foot landed slightly out-of-bounds.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I agree. But the confusion comes with the ball crossing the plane while still outside the pylon. For a runner that is not out of bounds, that is determined to be a touchdown. That's distinct from what happened here.

But as noted, White never got the ball across the plane so inside/outside the pylon is irrelevant.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Wasn't White airborne when he crossed the goal-line? His right foot landed slightly out-of-bounds.

Yes, but the key is the ball never crossed the plane before his foot went out of bounds. Here's the still again:

 

[SEA_Pat]

Just remember what our buddy Dean Blandino said about this just 8 days prior to the yesterday's game:
Blandino: Replay is only intended to fix obvious mistakes

Here is the Enunwa TD. Keep an eye on his rear and his right elbow. Does it look clear to you that his butt hit before his elbow? It's not looking that way to me. I thought this was a poor reversal.



I was sold on the White overturn on the last replay CBS showed. I haven't been able to find that one online yet, though.

Here are two screen shots showing the frames just before he's definitely on the ground with both butt and elbow. Looks pretty conclusive to me, you can see his butt deforming upon contact with the flat field while his elbow is still in the air.





Now that I've solved that mystery, I guess I better get back to making a living so I can pay next month's rent. But wait! Someone else is wrong on the internet! I'll be right back!

 

[Canuck]

Fair enough - and thanks Hammer for the video. The point of contact occurs between 1:06 and 1:07, so maybe they saw something in the game film not available in the video. But butt and elbow are in the air at .06 and both on the ground at .07 - again very hard to say which happened first, which goes back to my case of "lacking indisputable evidence then the call stands". If they had called it a TD to begin with, I would have agreed that there wasn't enough evidence to overturn, but it should work both ways.

My initial reaction was a TD and on replay I thought for sure it was but the replays I saw focused on the butt and not on the right elbow. It was alot closer then I originally thought. One frame it looks like his butt hits and his elbow is slightly above the ground and right at the edge of the out of bounds and the next frame his elbow clearly hits out of bounds.

Just for fun I tried to duplicate the fall on my couch. My butt and elbow hit so close together it was hard to tell if my butt hit first or both at the same time but my elbow didn't hit first. On a funny end note, when I fell, I hit the couch, bounced off and hit the coffee table and ended flat on my back on the floor.

 

[rochrist]

I agree. But the confusion comes with the ball crossing the plane while still outside the pylon. For a runner that is not out of bounds, that is determined to be a touchdown. That's distinct from what happened here.

Sure, if the player were, for example, to run straight down the sideline, in bounds, he can hold the ball anywhere he wants as long as he crosses the goal line with both feet in bounds. These plays involving the pylon are a different animal. As you say.