First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washington not.

[Mack Herron]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washington

What I understood in the Amendola situation was that he had already done the doctor's work for them by tearing the tendon from the bone, so he would need to still undergo the required month or so of rehab (which he apparently did).

The rehab period would have been the same whether he had surgery or not, so I don't believe that he will need surgery in the future due to the fact that he had already tore the tendon from the bone.

This is not meant as disrespect to Mack, who may end up being correct after all; I am just stating that Rob's view is exactly what I understood it to be myself.

Just to be clear Sup, it is incorrect to state DA did the doctor's work for them (that the treatment for a partial tear would have been to snip it from the bone). This is simply a misunderstanding perpetuated by bad reporting about what is done sometimes for chronic groin pain. It is not standard medical practice to detach tendons from bones in football players who have partial tears. The significance of mentioning the procedure to the reporter was to provide evidence that the tendon does not need to be repaired. It has been shown that players can return to the field without repairing the rupture.

When DA suffered a complete rupture they had a choice. Surgery: they could repair the rupture by stapling the tendon back onto the bone, wait about 12 weeks for the repair to heal, and back onto the field. The alternative was not to fix it at all, just wait for the pain to subside (about 6 weeks) and play through the injury (without the use of the muscle). So they had a choice: return the player to full health and the field in about 12 weeks, or don't fix it and return the player to the field in about 6 weeks. Faced with a choice of returning the player to full health, or returning the player to the field sooner, they chose playing sooner. Given the discussion about Gronk playing with one arm last year, I suspect the misunderstanding about DA is fairly widespread.

The question we fans would like to know the answer to is how close will he be to the player he was before? The answer is that nobody knows. While players, including 1 WR, have returned to the field, there is insufficient data on muscle strength and performance before and after the injury to say how effective they were. No doctor has said that DA is 100%. DA is playing with an anatomical injury, and he may or may not be as effective or as resistant to further injury as he was before the injury (or if he had surgery to repair it).

 

[RIpats88]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washington

The thing is mack what you are reporting is contrary to every article that I have read on amendola...what was reported was that generally surgery for a torn groin is to snip it off the bone. Amendola already did that so he can't risk further injury by playing.

The only question of whether he needed surgery or not was that one doctor believed he may have a sports hernia which he didn't.

At this point its a pain tolerance thing with amendola. Either way, well see on Sunday. It should be the first time all season we see Brady with his top 3 receivers on the field together in edelman, amendola and gronk...I'm expecting a lot of double coverage on gronk so amendola/edelman should get a lot of one on one coverage

 

[borg]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washington

For what it's worth....Listening to Toucher and Rich this AM. ...Fred Toucher is saying that Brady's hand is badly swollen, according to his people who have seen Brady away from Gillette. Considering the in house media at Gillette that comes in contact with Brady daily has yet to make similar statements, likely a non story.
Just passing it along

 

[Rob0729]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washington

Just to be clear Sup, it is incorrect to state DA did the doctor's work for them (that the treatment for a partial tear would have been to snip it from the bone). This is simply a misunderstanding perpetuated by bad reporting about what is done sometimes for chronic groin pain. It is not standard medical practice to detach tendons from bones in football players who have partial tears. The significance of mentioning the procedure to the reporter was to provide evidence that the tendon does not need to be repaired. It has been shown that players can return to the field without repairing the rupture.

When DA suffered a complete rupture they had a choice. Surgery: they could repair the rupture by stapling the tendon back onto the bone, wait about 12 weeks for the repair to heal, and back onto the field. The alternative was not to fix it at all, just wait for the pain to subside (about 6 weeks) and play through the injury (without the use of the muscle). So they had a choice: return the player to full health and the field in about 12 weeks, or don't fix it and return the player to the field in about 6 weeks. Faced with a choice of returning the player to full health, or returning the player to the field sooner, they chose playing sooner. Given the discussion about Gronk playing with one arm last year, I suspect the misunderstanding about DA is fairly widespread.

The question we fans would like to know the answer to is how close will he be to the player he was before? The answer is that nobody knows. While players, including 1 WR, have returned to the field, there is insufficient data on muscle strength and performance before and after the injury to say how effective they were. No doctor has said that DA is 100%. DA is playing with an anatomical injury, and he may or may not be as effective or as resistant to further injury as he was before the injury (or if he had surgery to repair it).

Reporters are reporting what they are getting directly or indirectly from the Patriots medical staff. What they reported is what was described to them by their sources, not just making it up or looking it up on Wikipedia. So what is reported is what the Pats' medical staff believes.

Can ask you how you know virtually everyone is wrong on this subject and you are right? Where did you get your facts? Are you a doctor or have any medical degree?

I provided a medical journal article that contradicts your asserting and I doubt the American Journal of Sports Medicine would publish an article that is a bunch of bad information. In that article, they point to other studies that found an adductor muscle is not "vital" for mobility of a wide receiver to cut or run.

No offense, I have been providing evidence to support my belief. You have only quoted one of my pieces of evidence that you seem to have misread or misunderstood what you quoted. Please provide some evidence that supports your assertion other than you saying everyone else is wrong.

Not trying to be a ****, but you really don't have much a leg to stand on in this argument unless you back up your assertions because the facts seems to be against you. Just dismissing the overall evidence against you by just saying "reporters got it wrong" or something like that without any evidence to support your claim is not exactly putting forth a strong argument.

If the reports and I am wrong, provide some proof to at least educate me (most reporters are doomed anyway).

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

Re: Per Twitter: Talib, Amendola at practice; Washington, Kelly still out

Since the upside is the 25 yard line, the average is the 18 or 19 yard line, and the downside is a devastating fumble, it is truly baffling why he is not instructed to take a knee every time.

Plus it seems like a good 10-20% of kick/punt returns end up with a penalty for blocking from the back or holding.

I think there was a situation against the Jets where Blount brought it out and got to about the 20, only to have a penalty take it back to around the 10... just take a knee, please. :eat2:

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Re: Per Twitter: Talib, Amendola at practice; Washington, Kelly still out

Plus it seems like a good 10-20% of kick/punt returns end up with a penalty for blocking from the back or holding.

I think there was a situation against the Jets where Blount brought it out and got to about the 20, only to have a penalty take it back to around the 10... just take a knee, please. :eat2:

Yes, please. BB needs to have an intern contact someone in math stats at a local college to do a revised risk/reward assessment of KO returns factoring in the "new" rule, the downside impact of a penalty field position and its associated probability and the inherent capabilities of the specific KR, Blount et. al. Were they to do that they'll come out with an expected value below 20 or so insignificantly higher that the sane strategy for now is take a knee, every time.

They can run the #s again if/when Washington is healthy.

 

[Mack Herron]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washington

Reporters are reporting what they are getting directly or indirectly from the Patriots medical staff. What they reported is what was described to them by their sources, not just making it up or looking it up on Wikipedia. So what is reported is what the Pats' medical staff believes.

Can ask you how you know virtually everyone is wrong on this subject and you are right? Where did you get your facts? Are you a doctor or have any medical degree?

I provided a medical journal article that contradicts your asserting and I doubt the American Journal of Sports Medicine would publish an article that is a bunch of bad information. In that article, they point to other studies that found an adductor muscle is not "vital" for mobility of a wide receiver to cut or run.

No offense, I have been providing evidence to support my belief. You have only quoted one of my pieces of evidence that you seem to have misread or misunderstood what you quoted. Please provide some evidence that supports your assertion other than you saying everyone else is wrong.

Not trying to be a ****, but you really don't have much a leg to stand on in this argument unless you back up your assertions because the facts seems to be against you. Just dismissing the overall evidence against you by just saying "reporters got it wrong" or something like that without any evidence to support your claim is not exactly putting forth a strong argument.

If the reports and I am wrong, provide some proof to at least educate me (most reporters are doomed anyway).

I have no idea what I said that you disagree with. In referring to DA not playing you claimed that he would be 100% (or closer to it). I merely pointed out that physically speaking, this statement is inaccurate because he chose to play with rather than repair the injury. They decided to come back sooner rather than to repair the injury. Returning to the field does not mean the player is 100%. This should come as no surprise as it is done all the time in the NFL. I have tried to be specific, and explain my position. I can find nothing in your posts where you disagree with anything I have said. If you do, please explain to me what our disagreement is and I'd be happy to reply.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washington

I have no idea what I said that you disagree with. In referring to DA not playing you claimed that he would be 100% (or closer to it). I merely pointed out that physically speaking, this statement is inaccurate because he chose to play with rather than repair the injury. They decided to come back sooner rather than to repair the injury. Returning to the field does not mean the player is 100%. This should come as no surprise as it is done all the time in the NFL. I have tried to be specific, and explain my position. I can find nothing in your posts where you disagree with anything I have said. If you do, please explain to me what our disagreement is and I'd be happy to reply.

Our disagreement is pretty clear. I said Amendola is one step closer to being 100% and surgery is not necessary in this case to return to 100% or close to it. You said he will not be 100% until he has surgery. I have supported my position with facts. You have not provided anything to support your position.

Again, where are you getting the surgery is even necessary? All the evidence says he is more likely to get back to 100% FASTER now that he decided not to get the surgery. I provided evidence to support this.

You are giving an opinion that is not supported by the facts that Amendola will not be 100% until he gets the surgery. Unless you have actually facts to back this up, it is just your opinion.

Again, at this point, from a pure football ability standpoint, he may already be at 100%. He might be in pain still. Medical evidence shows that having his adductor muscle separated from the bone will not hinder his playing ability.

 

[Mack Herron]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washington

Our disagreement is pretty clear. I said Amendola is one step closer to being 100% and surgery is not necessary in this case to return to 100% or close to it. You said he will not be 100% until he has surgery. I have supported my position with facts. You have not provided anything to support your position.

Again, where are you getting the surgery is even necessary? All the evidence says he is more likely to get back to 100% FASTER now that he decided not to get the surgery. I provided evidence to support this.

You are giving an opinion that is not supported by the facts that Amendola will not be 100% until he gets the surgery. Unless you have actually facts to back this up, it is just your opinion.

Again, at this point, from a pure football ability standpoint, he may already be at 100%. He might be in pain still. Medical evidence shows that having his adductor muscle separated from the bone will not hinder his playing ability.

Thanks, I think I see the source of our confusion here. Partly it is that you have misconstrued what I said (it might be helpful to use quotes because I did not actually say what you claim I said). Partly it is that we each mean something different by the expression "100%". You make the following claim:

I said Amendola is one step closer to being 100% and surgery is not necessary in this case to return to 100% or close to it.

the evidence says he is more likely to get back to 100% FASTER now that he decided not to get the surgery.

I don't think you have or can provide evidence to support the italicized claims. The medical evidence shows that a player can return to play without repairing the ruptured tendon, and can do so faster than if the injury is repaired. (After all, if you don't repair it, little healing is required). However, the article never says the player will be 100% or close to it. To the contrary, here is what they say:

we chose to use return to professional-level participation as
our criteria for success

In other words, Amendola has returned to play so he is rated a "success." However, they also acknowledge:

we were unable to perform a reliable analysis of players’ performance after their return to play

In other words, they do not present any data that could assess the level of performance of players who return to play without having the injury repaired. If your scale is that returning to play equates to the player being 100%, fine. I would say there are vast degrees of potential differences in performance among those who returned to play. Are we not all aware of players who suffered injuries and returned to play but were never the same afterwards? My point is that he is playing without the functionality of the adductor that ruptured. That is the reason I would refrain from saying he is 100%. We don't know how much the loss of this functionality will affect Amendola's strength, ability to cut sharply, hip stability, or a host of other attributes that have allowed him to perform at the level he has. Surely we both hope that he will return to (at least) his previous performance level. But there is simply no data to say whether or not he will. Time will tell.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washing...

So talib doesn't look to be a go then if he is very ginger

 

[upstater1]

Re: Per Twitter: Talib, Amendola at practice; Washington, Kelly still out

Yes, please. BB needs to have an intern contact someone in math stats at a local college to do a revised risk/reward assessment of KO returns factoring in the "new" rule, the downside impact of a penalty field position and its associated probability and the inherent capabilities of the specific KR, Blount et. al. Were they to do that they'll come out with an expected value below 20 or so insignificantly higher that the sane strategy for now is take a knee, every time.

They can run the #s again if/when Washington is healthy.

I'm fine with running it out within 3 or 4 yards of the goalline, but we're seeing him run it out from 9 yards back.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washington

Thanks, I think I see the source of our confusion here. Partly it is that you have misconstrued what I said (it might be helpful to use quotes because I did not actually say what you claim I said). Partly it is that we each mean something different by the expression "100%". You make the following claim:



I don't think you have or can provide evidence to support the italicized claims. The medical evidence shows that a player can return to play without repairing the ruptured tendon, and can do so faster than if the injury is repaired. (After all, if you don't repair it, little healing is required). However, the article never says the player will be 100% or close to it. To the contrary, here is what they say:



In other words, Amendola has returned to play so he is rated a "success." However, they also acknowledge:



In other words, they do not present any data that could assess the level of performance of players who return to play without having the injury repaired. If your scale is that returning to play equates to the player being 100%, fine. I would say there are vast degrees of potential differences in performance among those who returned to play. Are we not all aware of players who suffered injuries and returned to play but were never the same afterwards? My point is that he is playing without the functionality of the adductor that ruptured. That is the reason I would refrain from saying he is 100%. We don't know how much the loss of this functionality will affect Amendola's strength, ability to cut sharply, hip stability, or a host of other attributes that have allowed him to perform at the level he has. Surely we both hope that he will return to (at least) his previous performance level. But there is simply no data to say whether or not he will. Time will tell.

First, of course they are not going to give information on how a player level of performance is returned. That is not a quantifiable statistic. It is subjective evaluation. How do you quantify a player returning to pre-injury performance level? I have worked on published articles in academic journals and you cannot present subjective information. Everything needs to be quantified.

Unfortunately for a journal article, they cannot address the post injury performance level because the nature of the journal does not allow it. You would have to say that Amendola caught x # of passes for x # of yards prior to the injury and he had as many or more after the injury over the same time span to be able to publish performance level post injury. And we all know the NFL doesn't work that way on a player's performance.

Second, that say article entire premise is that surgery is not necessary for a player to return to his NFL career. They provide medical statistical information stating the adductor does not play a major role in a player's ability to run or cut. Which means your point about him not being able to return to 100% without re-attaching the adductor muscle is directly countered by medical evidence.

Again, all you have done is take your opinion and taken an article that contradicts your opinion and take the fact that they are unable to quantify if they returned to pre-injury form as proof you are right. Please provide actual evidence that the adductor muscle needs to be re-attached for a player to go back to 100% or that the adductor muscle needs to be re-attached at all.

Otherwise, we are just going around in circles.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Buchanan absent and Ninkovich limited

That injury report is from October 9.

:bricks::bricks:

 

[Ring 6]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washing...

So talib doesn't look to be a go then if he is very ginger

I don't believe that has been observed.
The only report I read was he didnt wear thigh pads, and then a bunch of people speculated what that might mean.

 

[supafly]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washing...

I don't believe that has been observed.
The only report I read was he didnt wear thigh pads, and then a bunch of people speculated what that might mean.

???

I gave you direct quotes from both Chris Price and Jeff Howe regarding how Talib looked yesterday in practice.

How is that "people speculating as to what it might mean?"




These are the quotes from yesterday regarding Talib's condition and how he looked:

Chris Price writes: "was limited in practice on Wednesday while moving gingerly through drills."

Jeff Howe wrote: "He wasn’t cutting particularly well. . . ."


I'm not seeing how this has anything to do with whether or not he was wearing thigh pads.

 

[supafly]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washing...

So talib doesn't look to be a go then if he is very ginger

I think it's hard to try and determine what extent he is moving gingerly on his own, and how much they may have told him to take it easy.

One good thing is that he's practiced now since Friday (Fri, Tues, Wed), so it's good to see him out there at least. The reports from Friday said that he couldn't even jog through warmups at all, so if he has progressed from that to simply "moving gingerly" that may be viewed as a good sign.

My guess is that they'll continue to monitor him tomorrow and possibly even Saturday, and that he'll be a gametime decision.

I don't think it is looking terribly optimistic at the moment though, but he has practiced for the past 3 sessions on a limited basis.

 

[ProductOfASystem]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washington

I'd rather continue to see Gronk and Edelman out there together than Gronk and Amendola. Edelman is better than Amendola. It's crystal clear. The only thing Amendola has on Edelman is salary.

 

[Archeryaddict12]

First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washing...

I'd rather continue to see Gronk and Edelman out there together than Gronk and Amendola. Edelman is better than Amendola. It's crystal clear. The only thing Amendola has on Edelman is salary.

And this is based on what? If Edelman was better, he would start in the slot.

 

[ProductOfASystem]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washing...

And this is based on what? If Edelman was better, he would start in the slot.

Ugh.

Let's apply that logic elsewhere:

"If Kurt Warner was better than Trent Green, he would've been the Rams' starting QB heading into the 1999 season. They never would have signed Green in the first place to be their starter."

"If Brett Favre was better than Don Majkowski, he would've been the Packers' starting QB to start 1992."

And last but not least....echem...

"If Tom Brady was better than Drew Bledsoe, he would start at QB" - You in weeks 1-2 of the 2001 season.

The Patriots made a bad decision to sign Amendola and give him all that money, when they already had Welker's replacement on the roster. Of course, Edelman was coming off injury so they were probably not willing to chance it, but now that we know he's healthy, it's time to go with the better guy, rather than make decisions based on someone's contract.

And again, Amendola hasn't proven a damn thing in the NFL. He's never been able to stay healthy, and when he was healthy, he wasn't anything great.

Edelman is bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, more elusive, and has at least equal hands to Amendola. Amendola couldn't have made that sick punt return last week if his life depended on it.

 

[Soadisthebest]

Re: First full pads practice in 3 weeks: Talib & Amendola present/Kelly & Washing...

.

Edelman is bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, more elusive, and has at least equal hands to Amendola. Amendola couldn't have made that sick punt return last week if his life depended on it.

Sounds like a comparison to Welker instead of Amendola. You certainly can't claim he's bigger, stronger, quicker and has better hands than Amendola.