Filling holes

[supafly]

I hope that Bill reconsiders his irrational antipathy towards Tom Condon, and signs Mark Herzlich.

Besides Matt Roth, and maybe Travis LaBoy & Mark Anderson, there just isn't anybody available for us in the vet UFA market at OLB. Where have you gone, Afailus Thomas?

Now that statement I can certainly agree with. I am also somewhat surprised that we did not take a flyer on either Romeus or Herzlich, considering what the potential 'gamble' was there. All I can think is that he really saw something about the CB and LB in the later rds that caused him to pull the trigger. Then again, maybe we're overreacting to the LB situation as a whole? Or more specifically, the OLB situation, I should say. Maybe he does have more optimism with Ninkovich or Moore + targeting a possible FA? That would certainly make sense if true. There certainly has to be a very reasonable explanation--right or wrong.

As far as FA--how about Kiwanuka? Supposedly Perry Fewell (D.C. of the NYG) had very high hopes of utilizing his versatility at both end + LB, in different formations/schemes etc. It may be worth a shot at least.

Lawson from SF is a bit of a mystery too, but then again, you never know what good coaching can do. Personally, I think you're on to something with a guy like Roth, someone with a lesser known 'name.' (Of course Roth seems to be getting more media attn lately than he's probably worth too though). If the situation is addressed, I don't think it'll be a bigger name guy--just an opinion though of course.

 

[Oswlek]

However, the problem with this is that it is much easier to find a RB or two to add to BJGE and Woodhead. There are always plenty of sleeper free agent RB's who want to leave their current team for more money or a bigger role. You can almost always find a mid to late round RB that can come in and have an instant impact. The pool of players is so large to choose from, and it seems every year that some guy is available that is somewhat attractive (like Leon Washington last year).

OLB has been much more difficult for Bill to fill and with his specifications the pool is much slimmer. There have been failed trades and signings like Burgess and Adalius. He has never really drafted and developed an OLB. The closest you can come to finding one is Banta Cain. Crable busted out. Cunningham is the highest OLB he's ever taken. Hopefully he works out.

How long have we been saying that they need to plan for life after Willie Mac and Vrabel? How long have we been saying that this pass rush is not the force it has been? Guys like Seymour, McGinest, Vrabel, etc don't just walk through the door. Seymour and McGinest were high first round picks.

To replenish the defense with that type of elite talent, you have to pay a price, whether it's Julius Peppers in free agency, giving Seymour a long term deal instead of trading him, or moving up into the top 10 in the draft to grab a guy like Orakpo.

The Pats have not done that and it's evident. The third down defense was absolutely abysmal last year and the pass rush was a key reason. We beat this dead horse every off-season. When you're running out Ninkovich and Banta-Cain as your pass rushers and you're not a pressure/overload defense that creatively blitzes a lot, you're going to be in trouble.

I understand where you are coming from, but I have to admit that I disagree with virtually everything you say here.

1) The "you can find a late round RB" is largely a myth based on a select few RBs that people can point to (Benny/Foster/etc). The problem is that the vast majority of those late rounders wash out while you are much more likely to get guaranteed contributions from a higher pick. On top of that, NE's actions speak loudly that they didn't just want fillers on the backend of the RB roster, they agressively targetted the position to improve the top end.

2) I agree that NE has never really developed an OLB. I also agree that NE started way too late to start turning over the OLB roster from Vrabel/Willle to now. Considering all the swings and misses in the later rounds, NE certainly could have grabbed a couple OLBs during the 2006-2008 period.

That said, investing a top pick on a guy who has never done the job is very, very risky. Ultimately, there have only been a couple guys since 2007 who have actually been the pass rushers people hoped they would - Matthews, Orakpo and Woodley. For every stud there are 8 Aaron Maybins.

Fans would have been appeased had NE selected Sergio Kindle or Jerry Hughes last year, but would the roster have been better? I think the answer to that is obvious.

3) I've said this before, but it seems those who desire an OLB can't quite grasp it. OLB struggles were way down on the list of causes for NE's atrocious 3rd down defense last year. ILB coverage issues was by far the primary reason. The number of plays where TBC or Warren were bearing down on a QB only to see him calmly toss to a receiver completely uncovered right in front of him vastly outnumbered those where the coverage was solid but the QB had all day to wait for someone to come open.

Second on the list is NB coverage. When Butler struggled and then Wilhite got hurt, NE had to turn to an injured Chung to cover guys in the slot. I can see the reasoning for it, tons of depth in the safeties not much in the CBs, but it still wasn't ideal. Indy's march up and down the field at the end was largely on the back of Blair White, who was matched up against Pat. Selecting Dowling was very much a "need" pick and, hopefully with Bodden's return this issue is addressed.

Third on the list was the #2 outside CB. I am firmly in Arrington's corner and was one of the few in the preseason saying he was a lock to make the roster and that I actually thought he was a decent cover guy. But I meant "decent" as in nickle or dime, not starting outside. Again, reinforcements were sorely needed.

Finally we get to OLB. I wholeheartedly agree that NE needs a superior player added to this position. I also agree that NE should have been looking to address this issue a whole lot sooner - I wanted Woodley over Meriweather in 2007, for example. I just disagree where they come from. BB has shown more than enough willingness to take on a hefty contract if the right player becomes available. But your mention of Peppers is wildly off base. He is an older player who has zero experience at the position. On top of that, he was paid a ridiculous amount of money meaning you'd have to say goodbye to someone like Wilfork to add Peppers. It's a zero sum game, after all.

Lastly, fans overrate the impact OLBs have on the pass rush in general. NE's pass rush isn't based on OLBs killing their man every play, it is based on a multi-faceted attack that caused confusion and breakdown in protection. Every time I write that, someone starts talking about "ILB blitzing" which isn't precisely what I am saying. I'm saying that back in the day any of the 4-5 LBs on the field were just as much of a threat to rush or drop into coverage. Because of this, you'd see guys coming free regularly. What happened in 2005 when the ILB group was gutted? All of a sudden, those OLB studs looked decidely human.

Now, I'm not saying that Willie, Vrabel and Colvin weren't better players than the 2010 group. I'm just saying that a pass rush is a total team effort, and that none of those guys were the studs they became in their first year starting, as both Nink and Jermaine were last year.

I personally love the overall LB group that NE has right now, lots of complimentary talent and guys who fill necessary roles. In time they are going to be a very good, and possibly great unit. NE waited too long to start reconstructing the group, but now they're back on track, we just need to be patient and let the kids develop.

(and hope Carter becomes a hall-of-famer, of course. )

 

[Shelterdog]

That said, investing a top pick on a guy who has never done the job is very, very risky. Ultimately, there have only been a couple guys since 2007 who have actually been the pass rushers people hoped they would - Matthews, Orakpo and Woodley. For every stud there are 8 Aaron Maybins.

Fans would have been appeased had NE selected Sergio Kindle or Jerry Hughes last year, but would the roster have been better? I think the answer to that is obvious.

One thing that really stands about the 2011 draft in hindsight is how few players were drafted to play OLB in 3-4 systems. Only about four players like that were drafted in the first three round: Aldon Smith, Kerrigan, Brooks Reed, and Houston (reports are that Mouton and Carter, college OLBs, are going to be ILBs in 3-4 in the pros). Guys like Sheard/Ayers/Von Miller/Moch/Beal went to predominantly 4-3 teams while Acho/Carter slid pretty late.

The draftniks thought it was a great year for 3-4 OLBs but the teams don't really agree.

 

[sbpatfan]

One thing that really stands about the 2011 draft in hindsight is how few players were drafted to play OLB in 3-4 systems. Only about four players like that were drafted in the first three round: Aldon Smith, Kerrigan, Brooks Reed, and Houston (reports are that Mouton and Carter, college OLBs, are going to be ILBs in 3-4 in the pros). Guys like Sheard/Ayers/Von Miller/Moch/Beal went to predominantly 4-3 teams while Acho/Carter slid pretty late.

The draftniks thought it was a great year for 3-4 OLBs but the teams don't really agree.

The draftniks were wrong again? Shocker.

 

[Shelterdog]

The draftniks were wrong again? Shocker.

They overrate draft picks immensely and they really overrate draft picks with big names from big schools.

I was just listening to a very popular fantasy football podcast and they were going on about how there are no standout defensive rookies but Aldon Smith and Ryan Kerrigan are both going to be "ok" as rookies and they'd probably both get about 10 sack and 45 or 50 tackle guys, and Justin Houston and Bowers were both also going to be ok-about 10 sacks each-but probably more like 30 tackles for each of them.

So they think there aren't any particularly good rookies but they also think four guys put up Lamar Woodley numbers as rookies, including a third round pick.

It's madness

 

[patchick]

One thing that really stands about the 2011 draft in hindsight is how few players were drafted to play OLB in 3-4 systems. Only about four players like that were drafted in the first three round: Aldon Smith, Kerrigan, Brooks Reed, and Houston (reports are that Mouton and Carter, college OLBs, are going to be ILBs in 3-4 in the pros). Guys like Sheard/Ayers/Von Miller/Moch/Beal went to predominantly 4-3 teams while Acho/Carter slid pretty late.

The draftniks thought it was a great year for 3-4 OLBs but the teams don't really agree.

Which draftniks were those, exactly?
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ou-want-come-draft-day-page2.html#post2528191

Honestly, you do make a good point -- and I'm not at all surprised that the Pats didn't draft one of those guys. I still am surprised, though, that they didn't bite at the 3-4 DEs. That's the position I thought was stacked, not OLB.

 

[Shelterdog]

Which draftniks were those, exactly?
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ou-want-come-draft-day-page2.html#post2528191

Honestly, you do make a good point -- and I'm not at all surprised that the Pats didn't draft one of those guys. I still am surprised, though, that they didn't bite at the 3-4 DEs. That's the position I thought was stacked, not OLB.

Good teams (the Chargers, Jets and Steelers) agreed with you about 3-4 DEs. Remember Belichick's cryptic pre-draft comments about how the teams that will do well in this draft are the teams that evaluate the DL well: I think he determined that the 3-4 DEs aren't going to be very good but he knows he's out on a limb on that one and either he's correct and the dline talent isn't all that special or he's wrong and Wilkerson and Heyward are going to kick our ass for the next decade.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

I understand where you are coming from, but I have to admit that I disagree with virtually everything you say here.

1) The "you can find a late round RB" is largely a myth based on a select few RBs that people can point to (Benny/Foster/etc). The problem is that the vast majority of those late rounders wash out while you are much more likely to get guaranteed contributions from a higher pick. On top of that, NE's actions speak loudly that they didn't just want fillers on the backend of the RB roster, they agressively targetted the position to improve the top end.

I disagree that it is a "myth." If you look around the league, the RB position has plenty of guys from the 3rd round or later that are quite successful. Ray Rice, Jamal Charles, and Shonn Greene were all 3rd round picks. Arian Foster and BJGE were undrafted free agents. Ahmad Bradshaw was drafted in the 7th round. Michael Turner was drafted in the 5th round. Blount, Woodhead, Fred Jackson were all undrafted. Frank Gore was a 3rd rounder. Marion Barber was a 4th rounder. Ryan Grant was undrafted. James Starks was drafted in the 6th round. Pierre Thomas was undrafted. Brandon Jacobs was drafted in the 4th round.

Of course you're going to have some top flight guys like Chris Johnson, Adrian Peterson, Mendenhall who were all drafted in the first round and are top performers at their position. But what other position in the league has so many mid/late round or undrafted guys that are successful? None. Every year there are running backs that seemingly come out of nowhere and produce.

2010 in Cleveland. Their 2nd round pick, Montario Hardesty, tears his knee up in training camp. Peyton Hillis, a guy that only touched the ball about 15 times in 2009 with Denver and many people only thought of as a fullback/H-back posts 1100 yards and 11 TD's.

2010 in San Diego. Their first round pick, Ryan Mathews battles through an injury plagued season. Mike Tolbert, an undrafted guy from Coastal Carolina, comes in and puts up 700+ yards and 11 TD's.

2010 in Carolina. Deangelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart both don't play in Weeks 10 and 11. 2009 4th round pick aka third stringer Mike Goodson gets the call and posts back to back 100 yard games vs Tampa Bay and Baltimore.

2010 in New England. Former first round pick Maroney is shipped to Denver for a 4th round pick. The Patriots two best RB's all year long are two UDFA's in BJGE and Woodhead.

2010 in Houston. Arian Foster came on strong in the last few games of 09 for Houston after being undrafted free agent. Arguably best RB in the league (stat-wise at least) in 2010.

2010 in Green Bay. James Stark, sixth round pick who was on the PUP and was inactive for most of the year is key in Packers' playoff run, exploding for over 100 yards against the Eagles, and giving the Packers a somewhat respectable ground game.

2010 in Buffalo. Fred Jackson, former UDFA, is Bills best RB with 900+ yards and 5 TD's, while top ten pick from 2010, CJ Spiller, rushes for only 280 yards and 0 TD's.

2010 in NY. Ahmad Bradshaw, 7th round pick, takes over starting job and posts 1200+ yards and 8 TD's. Outplays Brandon Jacobs, who, even himself, was only a 4th round pick.

Those are 8 scenarios in 2010 ALONE where off-the radar guys or mid to late round RB's or undrafted guys came in and were big time difference makers and/or out-performed higher drafted guys.

Guys like Addai, Maroney, Moreno, Beanie Wells, Cadillac Williams, Marshawn Lynch, etc have all "washed out" and were first round picks. Guys like Deangelo Williams have been labeled busts early on and then all of a sudden break out for one huge season.

Even if you are more likely to get consistent production from a top pick (AP, CJ, etc), it comes down to the "value" that BB talks about. Is it really good value to be taking RB's that high when so many of them are up and down from year to year, when so many of them are mid to late round guys or are even undrafted guys? For every Peterson and Chris Johnson, there are guys like Maroney who lose out to UDFA's like BJGE.

I don't know how much more evidence you need to see before you agree that RB is probably the easiest position to replace. There are always plenty of guys available, plenty of guys who come out of nowhere.

2) I agree that NE has never really developed an OLB. I also agree that NE started way too late to start turning over the OLB roster from Vrabel/Willle to now. Considering all the swings and misses in the later rounds, NE certainly could have grabbed a couple OLBs during the 2006-2008 period.

That said, investing a top pick on a guy who has never done the job is very, very risky. Ultimately, there have only been a couple guys since 2007 who have actually been the pass rushers people hoped they would - Matthews, Orakpo and Woodley. For every stud there are 8 Aaron Maybins.

Fans would have been appeased had NE selected Sergio Kindle or Jerry Hughes last year, but would the roster have been better? I think the answer to that is obvious.

I agree that it is a more "risky" type of pick, but with Belichick's "genius" and the way he is lauded for his scouting ability, shouldn't we be very confident in his ability to scout and develop an OLB? You look at Parcells, and he always spent high picks on top flight pass rushers, whether it be Demarcus Ware in Dallas or John Abraham with the Jets.

We heard the same things about the Pats and why they couldn't draft an ILB for years. Finally, they drafted Mayo, and he's been very good. This team greatly needs a pass rushing presence at OLB and spending third round picks on Shawn Crable isn't going to cut it. Most top flight pass rushers are first rounders, whether it be Matthews, Suggs, Merriman (before the injuries), Ware, Orakpo, Mario Williams, Julius Peppers, etc.

I was not a huge fan of either Kindle or Hughes pre-draft in 2010, but I want to give them both a fair shake. I was more of a Hardy/Dunlap/Worilds guy due to their power/size/athleticism.

We have never seen Sergio Kindle on the field in the NFL, so how can we judge what he would have done for the Pats? The kid fractured his skull by falling down the stairs. It's not like he's in prison for murder or anything. Give the guy a chance to heal and we will see what he can do on the field.

Jerry Hughes was stuck behind Freeney and Mathis on the depth chart. Probably one of the best bookend DE tandems currently in the league. Let's see what he does if one of those guys goes down.

3) I've said this before, but it seems those who desire an OLB can't quite grasp it. OLB struggles were way down on the list of causes for NE's atrocious 3rd down defense last year. ILB coverage issues was by far the primary reason. The number of plays where TBC or Warren were bearing down on a QB only to see him calmly toss to a receiver completely uncovered right in front of him vastly outnumbered those where the coverage was solid but the QB had all day to wait for someone to come open.

I disagree with this. While Guyton is not as good in coverage as he's given credit for by many, the pass rush was much more of a problem than the coverage. You're going to have miscommunications and messed up coverages when you've got a lot of young guys on defense, but there were some games where the Pats did not even come close to touching the QB. Mike Wright led the team in sacks and didn't play again for the rest of the season after the Colts game.

Was Mark Sanchez under any pressure in the playoff game? Part of the reason some of the coverage looked so bad and the 3rd down defense was so bad was because of the time QB's had to survey the field. The 4 man rush was simply anemic. Eventually the QB is going to find someone that is open because coverage inevitably breaks down -- you need your DL/LB's to help collapse the pocket and force a throw before the coverage breaks down. The Pats have not been able to that for 3-4 years now.

TBC was a non-factor for a great portion of the year and lost snaps to Ninkovich and Cunningham. Besides the Steelers game, where the Pats blitzed an injury ravaged Steelers OL into oblivion, which game did you really feel the Pats pass rush imposed its will on the opponent? Not often. Even on Thanksgiving, they couldn't get to Shaun Hill and just decided to go with a three man rush and play max coverage. It was a serious problem.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Second on the list is NB coverage. When Butler struggled and then Wilhite got hurt, NE had to turn to an injured Chung to cover guys in the slot. I can see the reasoning for it, tons of depth in the safeties not much in the CBs, but it still wasn't ideal. Indy's march up and down the field at the end was largely on the back of Blair White, who was matched up against Pat. Selecting Dowling was very much a "need" pick and, hopefully with Bodden's return this issue is addressed.

Third on the list was the #2 outside CB. I am firmly in Arrington's corner and was one of the few in the preseason saying he was a lock to make the roster and that I actually thought he was a decent cover guy. But I meant "decent" as in nickle or dime, not starting outside. Again, reinforcements were sorely needed.

I love the Dowling pick, so you will get no complaints there from me. I've been saying for years that I want a big CB to matchup with all the big WR's we play (Braylon, Marshall, Andre, Calvin, Fitzgerald, V-Jax, etc) and all the "move" TE's we play like Dallas Clark or Antonio Gates. I love a big, physical press corner who is athletic/fast enough to play with a guy like Vincent Jackson and is also big/physical enough to cover a TE in the Aaron Hernandez mold. I was a big fan of Sean Smith a few years ago in the draft, so I absolutely loved the Dowling pick.

I also agree that Chung in the slot was absolutely not ideal. He's much better as an in the box safety. I'd much rather see Chung used as a blitzer a la Polamalu in passing situations. He is not a guy I want to see covering slot WR's again in 2011.

The question is, who plays the slot? McCourty was much more effective on the outside, where he could jam at the line and use the sideline to help him. He struggled a bit when asked to cover a guy like Percy Harvin or Mike Wallace in the slot and over the middle. Dowling is a prototype CB to play outside the numbers with his size/physicality and lack of great fluidity in his hips.

Can Bodden play the slot? Guess we will see, because he seems more likely to end up there than Dowling or McCourty in my opinion. Maybe Butler or Wilhite can step up and make an impact. It seems like the slot is a better place for Butler. He wasn't real physical at the line of scrimmage and seems to rely more on athleticism than physicality. And then you still have Arrington who figures to be in the mix as a nickel or dime corner. I agree we are well-stocked there. Can never have enough CB's.

Finally we get to OLB. I wholeheartedly agree that NE needs a superior player added to this position. I also agree that NE should have been looking to address this issue a whole lot sooner - I wanted Woodley over Meriweather in 2007, for example. I just disagree where they come from. BB has shown more than enough willingness to take on a hefty contract if the right player becomes available. But your mention of Peppers is wildly off base. He is an older player who has zero experience at the position. On top of that, he was paid a ridiculous amount of money meaning you'd have to say goodbye to someone like Wilfork to add Peppers. It's a zero sum game, after all.

Lastly, fans overrate the impact OLBs have on the pass rush in general. NE's pass rush isn't based on OLBs killing their man every play, it is based on a multi-faceted attack that caused confusion and breakdown in protection. Every time I write that, someone starts talking about "ILB blitzing" which isn't precisely what I am saying. I'm saying that back in the day any of the 4-5 LBs on the field were just as much of a threat to rush or drop into coverage. Because of this, you'd see guys coming free regularly. What happened in 2005 when the ILB group was gutted? All of a sudden, those OLB studs looked decidely human.

Now, I'm not saying that Willie, Vrabel and Colvin weren't better players than the 2010 group. I'm just saying that a pass rush is a total team effort, and that none of those guys were the studs they became in their first year starting, as both Nink and Jermaine were last year.

I personally love the overall LB group that NE has right now, lots of complimentary talent and guys who fill necessary roles. In time they are going to be a very good, and possibly great unit. NE waited too long to start reconstructing the group, but now they're back on track, we just need to be patient and let the kids develop.

(and hope Carter becomes a hall-of-famer, of course. )

I understand what you are saying about the "team effort pass rush" that the Patriots employ, but you have to realize the talent level of that front seven. Seymour and Warren in their prime. Bruschi at ILB. Colvin, McGinest, Vrabel at OLB. That talent level simply dwarfs what the Pats had last year.

There has been no replacement at RDE for Seymour. A combination of Deaderick and Brace doesn't cut it. Warren was on IR and who knows if he will ever truly regain his form from his prime? McGinest has been gone for over 5 years and still hasn't adequately been replaced. That's simply unacceptable.

I wasn't stating that the Pats should have signed Peppers. I was just saying that you've often got to pony up the cash if you want to get a top flight pass rusher in free agency, and the Pats are a team that doesn't like to do that. Yes, they did it with Adalius, but how many guys have the let walk/traded over the years due to money? Quite a few. However, if the Pats did sign Peppers, I don't think you'd hear many people complaining if he performed, regardless of his salary.

Teams like the Steelers and Packers also rely on confusion with their blitz schemes to break down protection, but they also have elite talent in Clay Matthews, Woodley, Harrison. Rex Ryan is one hell of a creative blitzer, but he had Suggs in Baltimore.

Belichick's creative/confusing schemes can only carry the team so far if the personnel lacks the talent to execute it effectively. Look at the type of havoc Lawrence Taylor wreaked on opposing protection schemes in Belichick's defense.

We have not really seen anything from Ninkovich or Cunningham that shows they will become the new age Vrabel or Colvin/McGinest. I'm not saying that Cunningham is a bust, I actually liked the pick, but he doesn't stand out like an Orakpo did in his rookie year when I watched him play. Hopefully, he develops into a pass rushing force, but it remains to be seen.

I'm not as excited about the Patriots LB corps as you are. Years ago, we were excited about Crable and he busted out. I like what they have in Mayo, and I think Cunningham has the upside to be a nice Rosie Colvin-type of OLB, but I don't see a McGinest successor any where on the roster. Ninkovich is a nice story, but you're better off with him as a reserve LB. TBC is not a starting OLB in this league. He's a situational rusher at best. I'm not a huge fan of Guyton and think his coverage ability is overrated. I love the physicality Spikes bring to the run D but he's stiff as hell in coverage.

Which one of those LB's besides Mayo would even crack the lineups that consisted of Bruschi/Johnson/Vrabel/Colvin/McGinest/Seau/Phifer? Probably none.

 

[AzPatsFan]

PatChick is right in saying that OLB was more "filled" than RB since all the 2010 guys are scheduled to return, with Moore likely being re-signed as well, and basically all the RB's being free agents.

However, the problem with this is that it is much easier to find a RB or two to add to BJGE and Woodhead. There are always plenty of sleeper free agent RB's who want to leave their current team for more money or a bigger role. You can almost always find a mid to late round RB that can come in and have an instant impact. The pool of players is so large to choose from, and it seems every year that some guy is available that is somewhat attractive (like Leon Washington last year).

OLB has been much more difficult for Bill to fill and with his specifications the pool is much slimmer. There have been failed trades and signings like Burgess and Adalius. He has never really drafted and developed an OLB. The closest you can come to finding one is Banta Cain. Crable busted out. Cunningham is the highest OLB he's ever taken. Hopefully he works out.

How long have we been saying that they need to plan for life after Willie Mac and Vrabel? How long have we been saying that this pass rush is not the force it has been? Guys like Seymour, McGinest, Vrabel, etc don't just walk through the door. Seymour and McGinest were high first round picks.

To replenish the defense with that type of elite talent, you have to pay a price, whether it's Julius Peppers in free agency, giving Seymour a long term deal instead of trading him, or moving up into the top 10 in the draft to grab a guy like Orakpo.

The Pats have not done that and it's evident. The third down defense was absolutely abysmal last year and the pass rush was a key reason. We beat this dead horse every off-season. When you're running out Ninkovich and Banta-Cain as your pass rushers and you're not a pressure/overload defense that creatively blitzes a lot, you're going to be in trouble.

Hopefully Bill has something up sleeve in terms of free agency or a trade. I wouldn't mind going after Ray Edwards or maybe Matt Roth.

I'm just tired of the same thing in the draft every year. We all talk about how we need a replacement at RDE and OLB, but we never get it. We hear how it's not worth the risk or how they don't fit the system. It's BS.

Guys like Gerard Warren and Marcus Stroud are not starters. They're more like complementary/situational guys who can give you some snaps here and there but shouldn't be starting for you. We lack elite playmaking in our front 7. Those great Belichick defenses were built on great front 7 talent.

Belichick definitely filled some holes on the OL and added some young legs at RB which we needed, but the defense was really the concern all season long even if the offense is the one that crapped the bed in the playoffs.

To go into the draft almost every year with the ammo Bill has, only to seem him trade down and out or use valuable picks on two RB's and a QB that won't even see the field for another three years is just extremely disappointing.

I'd much rather have seen Bill pick up a DE and an OLB in addition to Dowling, and pick up some RB's later on. Take Cameron Jordan or trade up for Quinn. Take a shot on Bowers. You can get a RB like Kendall Hunter, who had similar value to Vereen, in the 4th or 5th round. You can get Taiwan Jones, Allen Bradford, Da'Rel Scott, Jordan Todman, etc later in the draft. To spend three picks in a row on two RB's and a backup QB is just baffling considering the state of the defense.

The reason the Pats went 14-2 is because Brady had an unbelievable season. The offense had a record-setting year in terms of not turning the ball over. All year long we were asking ourselves could the Pats win IN SPITE of a bottom of the league, Belichick-coached defense. I know the team was fairly young, but still, did you ever think we'd be uttering those words? There's only so much BB's "genius" can do. You need talent to win it all.

So you would have been happy if he had drafted Gholston, and Aaron Maybin and Larry English and Jerry Hughes with his high picks the past four years?

 

[Metaphors]

So you would have been happy if he had drafted Gholston, and Aaron Maybin and Larry English and Jerry Hughes with his high picks the past four years?

That really isn't fair. Belichick had enough draft picks to double-down at rush LB and mitigate any busts. He also could have drafted Quentin Groves, David Veikune and Sergio Kindle.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

Well, I'd say that Moore at least challenges TBC for the sub-package OLB/edge-rusher role, but he's also 30 yrs old and only 6 months younger than TBC, so it's not like he's a long term solution either.

All of that smoke you see is being blown up Belichick's ass!

Our pass rus isn't very good and relying on a second year guy and a bunch of guys who never have done it is a mistake. I hope I am wrong, I hope I have to eat my words, but without a serious upgrade our pass rush will look live our 2006 recieving core, and will probably have the same effect as they did when the playoffs start.

 

[E Belichick Unum]

Finally we get to OLB. I wholeheartedly agree that NE needs a superior player added to this position. I also agree that NE should have been looking to address this issue a whole lot sooner - I wanted Woodley over Meriweather in 2007, for example. I just disagree where they come from. BB has shown more than enough willingness to take on a hefty contract if the right player becomes available. But your mention of Peppers is wildly off base. He is an older player who has zero experience at the position. On top of that, he was paid a ridiculous amount of money meaning you'd have to say goodbye to someone like Wilfork to add Peppers. It's a zero sum game, after all.

Lastly, fans overrate the impact OLBs have on the pass rush in general. NE's pass rush isn't based on OLBs killing their man every play, it is based on a multi-faceted attack that caused confusion and breakdown in protection. Every time I write that, someone starts talking about "ILB blitzing" which isn't precisely what I am saying. I'm saying that back in the day any of the 4-5 LBs on the field were just as much of a threat to rush or drop into coverage. Because of this, you'd see guys coming free regularly. What happened in 2005 when the ILB group was gutted? All of a sudden, those OLB studs looked decidely human.

What is there to like, really Their inside people are good, and if Spikes makes progress they will turn into very good. Their outside people suck, and the only hope, Cunningham, is a second round guy who had 1 sack last year. TBC is a figment of our imagination and Ninkovitch is a back up/ special teams type of player. It shows just how bad out ouside linebackers are when we start looking for things to turn TBC into a good OLB.

In the BB scheme, the OLB is responsible for most, if not all of the pressure from the edge. With the people we have there now we cannot compete, hell we made Sanchez look like a superstar, and he sucks! When the game was on the line, the outside pressure disappeared. That pass to the sideline late in the game was the play that decided the game, and there was no pressure. There were recievers running all over the field and Sanchez wasn't sacked once.

You can apply all of the IBBWT man love you want to the situation, looking at this team from any angle the glaring weakness is outside pass rush. We ain't got any and we can't win another title without it.

I personally love the overall LB group that NE has right now, lots of complimentary talent and guys who fill necessary roles. In time they are going to be a very good, and possibly great unit. NE waited too long to start reconstructing the group, but now they're back on track, we just need to be patient and let the kids develop.

(and hope Carter becomes a hall-of-famer, of course. )

Personally, I don't.

 

[PatsFanStnfrd]

There is some mystery on why BB has not invested more in the OLB spot in the drafts. One can easily understand BB's reluctance in the early rounds -- expending a top pick on a conversion prospect. Nevertheless, he did draft Crable in the 3rd, Cunningham in the 2nd. But he has been oddly reluctant to invest 5th, 6th and 7th round picks -- on developmental or flyer prospects at the OLB spot (until this year when he drafted Carter in the 5th).

BB chose instead to draft OLmen like Welch and Larsen at a spot where they had a tough time making the team even though they were good enough to make the Vikings and the Bucs, once cut. What explains this?
-- Either BB does not see prospects who "measure up" at OLB in the late rounds
-- Finds better "value" or prospects at other positions such as the OL, even though they may have a tough time making the team
--Prefers to sign veterans as a "quilt" or "patchwork" OLB group-- but even here, it seems that it is only "budget" signings, not pursuit of stars

Other teams such as the Steelers or the Eagles draft multiple OLB prospects in their drafts. Of course, they have failures. But it is a position at which they believe their chance of succeeding varies directly in proportion to the number of prospects they draft. Both organizations are successful "pressure" on opposing QB teams -- with great blitz packages.

BB as we know will think of nothing in doubling down on TEs, RBs, OLmen but for some reason has shied away from doing the same at OLB.

It is what it is.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Which draftniks were those, exactly?
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ou-want-come-draft-day-page2.html#post2528191

Honestly, you do make a good point -- and I'm not at all surprised that the Pats didn't draft one of those guys. I still am surprised, though, that they didn't bite at the 3-4 DEs. That's the position I thought was stacked, not OLB.

I heartily concur, but OTOH is the Defensive line really that bereft of talent, as the offensive line could become? BB has found several D-Line players below the first round, who have carved a niche, and can play in the NFL, even if it is only substitutionally.

Mo Pryor, is an inside penetrating Defensive tackle who adds to the third down pass rush inside and allows Willfork to get a breather. Mike Wright can sub at NT, on passing downs, or outside in pass rush situations,and add a real interior pass rush. Ron Brace was chosen to be a beefy backup NT to Wilfork, but has done better as the strongside LDE and I beleive is blossoming. Brandon Deadrick is a good sized DE who has a complete game, but is not specatacularr in any one thing, except for getting in the Coach's doghouse, perhaps.

Looking at the starters Wilfork is as good a NT as there is in the League. Ty Warren is a stud LDE who can stop the strong-side run and add some bull rush in the pass rush, when healthy. There is no Richard Seymour any more, but Stroud was a three time pro-bowler, and G Warren is a more than adequate backup, and can offer Stroud a blow on occasion, along with Wright and Deaderick.

That is 8 DL players and I haven't even mentioned the others on the roster, like Love, when a team usually only carries 7. No, the table is not bare on the D-Line; and BB knew he had the luxury to continue rebuilding the Offense before it went South. There are now four young RBs, and apparently an old pro, to go with the four young WRs and an old pro. There are three good TEs, including a future all-Pro, and an old pro.

Now the Offfensive line appears to be re-stocked with talented youngsters to handle the transition from a fading SB generation. Constructing a new generation of O-Line, from building blocks like Mankins, Volmer, Solder, Cannon, and even Connelly is not starting with chicken feathers to make a chicken salad. Not when you still have SB starters like Light, Kaczur and Koppen still around.

I still think Bill Belichick is busy building his greatest Masterpiece. A Juggernaut, that will make itself felt throughout the League in the coming decade. A 14-2 record against evey piece of Iron in the League, was just the fore taste of things to come.

 

[Oswlek]

Which one of those LB's besides Mayo would even crack the lineups that consisted of Bruschi/Johnson/Vrabel/Colvin/McGinest/Seau/Phifer? Probably none.

You'll get no argument from me. As I said before, NE waited too long to begin rebuilding the OLB (and ILB) ranks.

But when you said "in their prime" you were more accurate than you realized. How long did it take those players to reach their prime?

Bruschi - 7 years
Vrabel - 7 years
Willie - 1 year (but he had become an oft injured disappointment before BB revitalized his career)
Colvin - 3 years

Seau and Phifer were solid right away, but they weren't OLBs, nor was Seau on the team during the elite years.

None of the OLBs were like to point at as fighters of truth, justice and the Patriot Way did anything remarkable in their first years. What you look at as a roster issue is really an expectation issue. We were lucky that BB's initial years didn't involved a youth movement because he had a few guys who were hitting their stride and he made some good choices in the FA market. This is the first time we've had to live through a youthful rebuild and fans don't know how to react. Trade up! Sign this big name! Sign that one!

Big names and high draft picks are certainly part of the equation, but not the primary one. Of all the LBs on NE during the heyday, how many were big names prior to their first championship? Willie Mac?

Patience.

As for this comment:

I was just saying that you've often got to pony up the cash if you want to get a top flight pass rusher in free agency, and the Pats are a team that doesn't like to do that. Yes, they did it with Adalius, but how many guys have the let walk/traded over the years due to money? Quite a few.

Brady signed the biggest contract ever. Seymour signed the biggest contract ever for a DT at the time in 2005 (I think), Wilfork just signed one of the biggest for a NT. NE signed Colvin and AD, who were both the premier FAs in their classes.

Can we please drop the passive agressive shots at the Krafts and BBs for being cheap? NE hasn't let any more big money guys go than any other team. And they've actually signed more big money FAs than comparable organizations like Indy and Pittsburgh. Unless you'd prefer them to behave more like the Redskins?

You can apply all of the IBBWT man love you want to the situation, looking at this team from any angle the glaring weakness is outside pass rush. We ain't got any and we can't win another title without it.

I have no shame in being firmly in Bill's corner. Frankly, I think anyone doing otherwise is taking a hell of a lot more risk than I am.

You list all the issues with the LBs - all of them certainly reasonable based solely on 2010 - but ignore the biggest issue, youth! 3 of NE's LBs were true rookies, and another, Nink, was basically in his 2nd year of actually playing the position.

Again, NE waited too long to turn over the roster. It is impossible to deny this. But now that we are here, is more youth really the solution? I can see the alure of Peppers, but that kind of money for a guy who has never even played the position? No thanks, not if it means saying goodbye to someone else who has proven themselves.

You see things based on what just happened. I see them based on what can and will happen. This is going to be a solid group.

 

[supafly]

I still think Bill Belichick is busy building his greatest Masterpiece. A Juggernaut, that will make itself felt throughout the League in the coming decade. A 14-2 record against evey piece of Iron in the League, was just the fore taste of things to come.

YES!!!!! This last paragraph got me pumped..bring on the damn football already

 

[supafly]

You see things based on what just happened. I see them based on what can and will happen. This is going to be a solid group.

Yessir..yes it surely is

 

[BlueThunder]

I think AZPat hit the nail on the head....

14-2 with a bunch of rookies against the iron of the league...have to hope that they mature in year 2 and we actually have football this season....

I truly believe Patriot Nation will have alot to enjoy in the coming years...


Youth at RB should show immediate returns....


Let the games begin :rocker:

 

[E Belichick Unum]

I have no shame in being firmly in Bill's corner. Frankly, I think anyone doing otherwise is taking a hell of a lot more risk than I am.

You list all the issues with the LBs - all of them certainly reasonable based solely on 2010 - but ignore the biggest issue, youth! 3 of NE's LBs were true rookies, and another, Nink, was basically in his 2nd year of actually playing the position.

Again, NE waited too long to turn over the roster. It is impossible to deny this. But now that we are here, is more youth really the solution? I can see the alure of Peppers, but that kind of money for a guy who has never even played the position? No thanks, not if it means saying goodbye to someone else who has proven themselves.

You see things based on what just happened. I see them based on what can and will happen. This is going to be a solid group.

I actually am referencing the last three seasons, starting from the day that Brett Farve exposed the deep middle of our defense. I don't think you quite grasp just how bad our OLBs really are. TBC had 5 sacks, Ninkovitch had 4, Cunningham had 1, Guyton had 3 but he played inside most of the year. The leader was Wright a nose tackle, with 5.5. Our entire OLB core had 9 sacks total.

I hate being negative, but this hasn't been a case of the defense having a down year, our pass rush has sucked for years now. I keep hearing about how Belichick is looking for that 6'5", 270 OLB and can't find them and that may be true, but that Pats cannot win without some semblence of an outside pass rush, and making excuses for not getting one is insane.

BB had 2 firsts, two seconds and two thirds going into the last draft. He passed multiple times on the best pass rusher in the draft, he refused to trade up to get a pass rusher, and the one he took was a 6th rounder who is training camp fodder. The Pats were ranked 32 in 3rd down percentage allowed, but they were ranked 16 in overall yards per attempt. ( Cold, Hard Football Facts.com: Final 2010 Defensive Hog Index ), what that tells me is that the defense did a good job on fiorst and second downs, but sucked on third downs, when teams usually have to pass the ball and when outside pressure is vital to success.

But then again, what the hell do I know. I'm just some schmuck who works for a living.