"Draft Redux" - Don Banks

[SEA_Pat]

I suggest you read my conversation with fellow posters from the beginning. It wasn't about "hey, we haven't won the SB in 5 years, we must suck." I'm not gonna flame because I'm assuming you haven't followed the conversation.

You may be right and I may have confused you or lumped you in with Geddie whatever. Apologies.

On the other hand, I don't agree that we've drafted that badly, a few rougher years but some other very good ones, pretty much par for the course as it is such a crapshoot.

I think the NFL is the hardest league to keep on top in, a few breaks here and there going one way or the other make a big difference. That we're still in the hunt and have been every year since 2001 is to me a demonstration of organizational excellence. When you add in the loss of coordinators and inevitable retirement/aging of the older defensive leaders, I am very pleased with where we are right now. All I ask is a competitive team, everything else is gravy.

 

[Wretch]

It's no secret why this team hasn't won a super bowl in the last 5 years? They haven't been able to replace the players they lose. It's that simple. Their secondary has been a mess for years and their LB's have been almost as bad since 2005. Why is that? Why is taking the Pats so long to fill their most glaring needs? With the core group of players that they have, their needs should've been taken care of by now. It's been 5 years and their defense still isn't very good. Now take into account that their offense is struggling shows their team is regressing. It's a shame because the Pats had something special.

Though the loss of key players has had a role in the current issues with the Pats. I think the larger culprit is the brain drain out of the coaching and front office staffs. in the past 5 years we have lost:

Weiss
Crennel
Mangini (plus the lower level assistants he poached)
Demitroff
McDaniels
Pioli

Say what you will about Mangini as a head coach but he was a talented assistant.

Because of the loss of the highly qualified coaches and front office personnel BB has promoted from within and some of those replacements are still getting OJT.

The Pats have for the most part replaced talent with talent in regards to the player transaction, though there has been a loss of locker room leadership on defense. This is mostly due to the relative youth of the D and players like Chung may grow to replace players like Rodney eventually. The exception to this is obviously in the pass rush.

I would also like to remind everyone that winning the Super Bowl is not a birthright and our 5 year "drought," 2 years removed from a near perfect season, is a situation the Buffalo Bills, Miami Dolphins, New York Jets, Baltimore Ravens, Cincinnati Bengals, Cleveland Browns, Houston Texans, Jacksonville Jaguars, Tennessee Titans, Denver Broncos, Kansas City Chiefs, Oakland Raiders, San Diego Chargers, Dallas Cowboys, Philadelphia Eagles, Washington Redskins, Chicago Bears, Detroit Lions, Green Bay Packers, Minnesota Vikings, Atlanta Falcons, Carolina Panthers, New Orleans Saints, Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Arizona Cardinals, San Francisco 49ers, Seattle Seahawks and St. Louis Rams fans would love to be in.

We are lucky fans and should enjoy this ride because it will seem all too short once it is over, just ask Dallas and SF fans.

 

[mayoclinic]

We are lucky fans and should enjoy this ride because it will seem all too short once it is over, just ask Dallas and SF fans.

Perspective is everything. The Oakland Raiders were once considered an elite franchise, too.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

These types of "discussions" can never be brought to a conclusion because there will always be one side that:

Can't take a holisitc approach to evaluating the circumstances

Have a perverted sense of history.

In 01-04, the Pats had a core of defensive players in their prime. Inevitably, these players became the "old and slow" crowd (Brushi in 2006 AFCCG/ Does 03-04 Rodney make the Tyree play or the Boss play?)

Right now the defense is being rebuilt with "young and fast". As such, these players will not be in their prime because the maturation process needs to take it's course.

I also love the "clutch" defense arguement toward winning the Super Bowls. In SB 36, the defense gave up 2 4th qtr touchdowns. Likewise, in SB 38, the defense was gashed for 29 points and a late game tying TD.

 

[Wretch]

Perspective is everything. The Oakland Raiders were once considered an elite franchise, too.

Great point, both about perspective and Oakland. I am nearly 40 and remember vividly the Sullivan family, Irvin Fryar (before he grew up), Hart Lee Dykes, Eugene Chung, Pat Harlow, Trevor Mattich, Tommy Hodson, Marc Wilson, Zeke Mowatt, Lisa Olsen, Victor Kiam, James Orthwein Busch, the Ken Sims bowl, Rod Rust as a DC and HC, Bobby Grier, and **** McPherson. The more I think about it the better I feel about 8-5 and leading the division by 1 game with 3 to play.

 

[mayoclinic]

Great point, both about perspective and Oakland. I am nearly 40 and remember vividly the Sullivan family, Irvin Fryar (before he grew up), Hart Lee Dykes, Eugene Chung, Pat Harlow, Trevor Mattich, Tommy Hodson, Marc Wilson, Zeke Mowatt, Lisa Olsen, Victor Kiam, James Orthwein Busch, the Ken Sims bowl, Rod Rust as a DC and HC, Bobby Grier, and **** McPherson. The more I think about it the better I feel about 8-5 and leading the division by 1 game with 3 to play.

The only team to manage to sustain continued excellence despite turning over the majority of their roster that I can think of is the San Francisco 49ers, who won 5 Super Bowls and 10 or more games 17 times in 18 seasons from 1981 to 1998. The only time they didn't was the strike shortened season of 1982 when they went 3-6. They won 10 or more 16 years in a row despite turning over virtually every player on the team, and won 12 or more in 9 of those 16 seasons. They changed coaches twice during that period (Walsh -> Seifert -> Mariucci), changed QBs (Montana -> Young), and turned over their entire roster. However, they didn't have to deal with the salary cap and free agency for much of their run.

Every other team that I can think of which has managed to recapture glory has gone through a period of losing records in between - the Steelers, Cowboys, Raiders and Redskins come to mind. And they are the wildly successful ones, as most teams don't get one shot, much less two with essentially different teams, at winning it all.

The Pats are on a 9 year run in which their worst record has been 9-7. Tom Brady, Bill Belichick and Robert Kraft are really the only constants over those 9 years. They have made the AFCCG or better in 7 of those 9 years, finished 12-4 or better in 4 of those 9 and 11-5 or better in 6 of those years (7 if we win out this year), and won 3 Super Bowls. It would be hubris to think that we could go through as much personnel turnover as we have without hitting some bumps on the way.

Could we have drafted better? Absolutely. As far as I'm concerned, take Troy Polamalu over Ty Warren in 2003 and Karlos Dansby over Ben Watson in 2004 and we would have won at least 2 more Super Bowls, possibly more. But that doesn't detract from what has been accomplished, which is virtually unprecedented. Add in that it was done in the salary cap era with yearly turnover that was unheard of when the 49ers had their glory years, and the accomplishment is even greater.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Though the loss of key players has had a role in the current issues with the Pats. I think the larger culprit is the brain drain out of the coaching and front office staffs. in the past 5 years we have lost:

Weiss
Crennel
Mangini (plus the lower level assistants he poached)
Demitroff
McDaniels
Pioli

Say what you will about Mangini as a head coach but he was a talented assistant.

If you mean "defensive back coach" or whatever his position was, maybe. DC, not really: the D might have mutinied in 2005 if Belichick hadn't taken away his play calling duties.

 

[FinNasty23]

Vontae Davis only has 3 INT's this year and 2 of them came off of two ugly throws by brady forceing the ball in to double coverage

moss had 8 rec for 213 yerds and 2 TD's averageing 30 yerd a catch vs Vontae Davis in 2 games he is not a shutdown corner just yet

i do think they should have picked Matthews with there first round pick

or at lest James Laurinaitis in the 2th round i think they picked chung to high

2006 we all know chad jackson sucks he was a bad pick but maroney dose not get the ball a nuff to get yerds he only has 5 games in he's career with 20 or more att and he is averageing 90 yerd's in dose games


2007 they picked Merriweather. yes they could of had Jon Beason but BB dose not draft LB's that small it's not going to happen if he would have been a good player for the pats or not. we will never know,

2008 he picked mayo he did win DROY the only player that may have been better at he's spot is ryan clady,

but mayo is a good player he is just not patrick willis, and he never will be

but i do think that the tuna is better at drafting then BB but that dose not meen that BB is bad at darfting

just cause one team can do something better then the patriots dose not meen the pats are bad at that one thing

Not one of those INTs were in double coverage. They all were in single coverage... 1v1 Davis vs. Moss, and 1v1 with T.O. He also had an INT 1v1 with Braylon Edwards in the endzone on a 2pt conversion this year... but INTs on 2pt conversions dont gget recorded.

Now, Moss has scorched Vontae a couple of times this year... as a HoFer should do to a rookie... but he battled Moss pretty well for a rook, dont you think?

 

[DaBruinz]

Nevermind how he parlayed the earlier picks into many seconds this coming year. '09 will be one of his best classes. You know how high I am on Vollmer, bud, and I think that he is going to be the best tackle of the draft (and a better than 50% chance to become the best player of the draft). I also think Chung is going to be the best SS of the draft, and the future defensive leader. A true micro-harrison. Nevermind Butler et all.

One note about LB's that I think is worth noting. I see many people wanting to draft a pass rushing LB this year. The issue with that is the time it will take an OLB to develop within the scheme. I think that the immediate solution is to go get Peppers, draft a guy in the 2nd, and groom him as the replacement. In my mind, it's three years too late to take a 1st round OLB.

I honestly don't see the Pats going with Peppers.. Not at his price tag.. I think you'll see them look at other options around the league. And there are a few out there. Ryan Denney. Ray Edwards. Just to name two..

 

[Wretch]

If you mean "defensive back coach" or whatever his position was, maybe. DC, not really: the D might have mutinied in 2005 if Belichick hadn't taken away his play calling duties.

That is why I commented as an assistant not necessarily as a coordinator.

 

[DaBruinz]

You are so delusional but I expected a reply like this from the number homer on this site, which says a WHOLE lot considering the rampant homerism that goes on on these boards.

You have excuses for everything, but the bottom line is......we haven't won a Super Bowl since 04 and our talent has gone down.

And the fact that you've gone on to even acuse the league of going out of their way for Peyton?? Dude, do you realize all the calls that have gone our way?

*yawn* Yes, I am delusional. I called the bogus Pass Interference calla against Butler. I called the one in the Houston game... But in your deluded world, I don't know what I am talking about.

The talent on this team hasn't gone down. It's changed. Much of it is significantly younger and LEARNING. But you don't seem to be bright enough to understand that.

BTW, There aren't that many calls that have gone the Pats way. It's over-exaggerated by the clueless who parrot the mediots..

Yo

u can write all the essays you want, but that doesn't skew the reality everyone outside of the homers like you live in. The Pats are an 8-5 team because of the accumulative personnel decisions the past couple of years.

So go ahead, reply with some BS that you've obviously convinced yourself, you are my personal entertainment whenever you post because the crap you write are wildly entertaining.

Glad to know that you think dealing in facts is crap. But then, with the garbage you've spewed over the past 2 years, Eskimos might actually believe they live in the tropics..

The Pats are 8-5 for a variety of reasons, and PART of it is the cumulative personnel decisions (no such word as accumulative). But there is such thing as player execution (which has nothing to do with talent) and coaching (which has nothing to do with player talent). And injuries (which has nothing to do with talent).

Frankly, I'm still tyring to figure out if this is a schtick or if you are really as delusional as your posts would suggest. Either way, you are entertaining especially when someone is unaware of your gimmick and gets sucked in. LOL.

BTW, LMAO at you convicing yourself that Pryor is a standout. What's next? Ron Brace is our secret weapon and we're just waiting for the playoffs to unveil him?

Like I said, maybe you should WATCH the games for a change and you should look at what Pryor is doing when he's on the field instead of making asinine statements like you do. OH WAIT. You can't do that. Then you couldn't keep pretending that you know more than BB and that you are some friggin god when it comes to personnel decisions....

Condon, you clearly have yourself deluded into thinking that you know more than everyone else on this board and that you know more than Bill Belichick. At best, you are actually that dumbarse Tom Condon who absolutely hates the Patriots because of being fired by Ben Watson. At worst, your someone who knows next to nothing about football and just tries to pretend you know more than Belichick. Whichever it may be, you've shown that You're perceptions are surface ones at best and offer up nothing in terms of actual depth of the game.

 

[mayoclinic]

While I generally think it takes 3 years at least to evaluate a draft, I will say that we seem to have quite likely missed a golden opportunity with 4 picks between 62 and 94 in the 2008 draft. After drafting Mayo and losing our #31 pick to the Commish, we took:

62 - Terrance Wheatley, CB. Considered a reach. Has been injured, and hasn't seen the field with any consistency, mostly as a dime CB.

69 - traded to San Diego for a 2009 2nd round pick which turned out to be #47, which we traded up to Oakland for #40 to draft DT Ron Brace, who has barely seen the field this year and has been passed up on the depth chart by late round and PS guys.

78 - Shawn Crable, OLB - hasn't made it to the field once in 2 full regular seasons.

94 - Kevin O'Connell, QB - cut in training camp this year.

That's ridiculously low productivity from 4 relatively high picks, with almost 7 seasons combined so far. Admittedly, the 2008 3rd round wasn't one of the better ones and there were other busts (such as DE/OLB Bruce Davis, taken by the Steelers and cut this year in training camp), but I can't remember 4 picks so high producing so little. Brace could still turn out to be a good pick in the long run, but O'Connell was a wasted pick, and Wheatley and Crable are long shots to be major contributors at this point.

 

[DaBruinz]

Well, it's about time you responded to my posts. I thought you put me on ignore?

It's no surprise that you are impressed with the Pats draft or anything they do in general. However, I'm not impressed with their picks despite all the ammo they had going in to the draft. Their most glaring need was neglected once again - pass rush. I don't think they accomplished much, if anything last off season. I'm clearly in the minority in thinking their team has actually regressed. Their 8-5 record gives me enough evidence for now.

It's no secret why this team hasn't won a super bowl in the last 5 years? They haven't been able to replace the players they lose. It's that simple. Their secondary has been a mess for years and their LB's have been almost as bad since 2005. Why is that? Why is taking the Pats so long to fill their most glaring needs? With the core group of players that they have, their needs should've been taken care of by now. It's been 5 years and their defense still isn't very good. Now take into account that their offense is struggling shows their team is regressing. It's a shame because the Pats had something special.

How did you like your edited name in your quote just like you edited mine for no reason?

1st off - You are still on ignore. I copied what you said from another poster quoting you.

2ndly - I didn't intentionally edit your name. I don't care enough to remember it properly. So if its screwed up, oh well..

3rd - Yes, I think that this past draft was a good one. I think that they added a lot of dynamic players and that they scored on some players that they took a chance on. And, in the long run, that will help the team be better.

4th - The Pass rush wasn't neglected, contrary to your belief. They added Tyrone McKenzie in the draft. They aslo added Myron Pryor and Ron Brace and Derrick Burgess. Is BB supposed to be clairvoyant and know that McKenzie is going to tear his ACL in rookie camp and that Brace is going to take longer to develop than hoped? Pryor has been better than LeKevin Smtih ever was and has been a regular in the Defensive Line rotation. Burgess might be comign around, though he's been relatively unimpressive this year. And well, we all know about Brace not seeing the field. What we don't know is why.

5th - As has been pointed out to you previously and you continue to refuse to acknowledge, the Pats clearly felt that the other Pass Rushers in the draft were too one dimensional and didn't bring anything else. Such as the ability to set the edge.

6th - The linebackers took a huge hit in 2005 after Ted Johnson had to retire abruptly, Tedy Bruschi had his stroke and Jeremy Mincey came in with a lax attitude. On top of that, Monty Beisel and Chad Brown didn't pan out. How was BB supposed to know that Ted Johnson would have to retire the day before TC started? How was BB supposed to know that Phifer wasn't going to be ready and come back to the Patriots? How was he supposed to know that Beisel would be thrust into a starting role from day 1 of camp because of Johnson's retirement?

7th - The defense has been one of the best in the league this year. Prior to the New Orleans game, they were giving up under 14 points a game. They are still only giving up 18 points a game and are 7th in the league, yet you think that means they are BAD???

Why is it taking so long to replace the talent they lost? Because each player is unique and had a particular skill set. Because the Patriots defense is one of the most complex defenses around and it takes a player with dedication or savant like abilities to learn it. Because injuries happen and the players you put in aren't are different than the player you lost. Either they aren't as good as the players they replace or they lack experience. Because players get greedy and put the team in a lose lose situation when it comes to the contract.

People like you are so short-sighted, you can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[DaBruinz]

While I generally think it takes 3 years at least to evaluate a draft, I will say that we seem to have quite likely missed a golden opportunity with 4 picks between 62 and 94 in the 2008 draft. After drafting Mayo and losing our #31 pick to the Commish, we took:

62 - Terrance Wheatley, CB. Considered a reach. Has been injured, and hasn't seen the field with any consistency, mostly as a dime CB.

69 - traded to San Diego for a 2009 2nd round pick which turned out to be #47, which we traded up to Oakland for #40 to draft DT Ron Brace, who has barely seen the field this year and has been passed up on the depth chart by late round and PS guys.

78 - Shawn Crable, OLB - hasn't made it to the field once in 2 full regular seasons.

94 - Kevin O'Connell, QB - cut in training camp this year.

That's ridiculously low productivity from 4 relatively high picks, with almost 7 seasons combined so far. Admittedly, the 2008 3rd round wasn't one of the better ones and there were other busts (such as DE/OLB Bruce Davis, taken by the Steelers and cut this year in training camp), but I can't remember 4 picks so high producing so little. Brace could still turn out to be a good pick in the long run, but O'Connell was a wasted pick, and Wheatley and Crable are long shots to be major contributors at this point.

Mayo- Is BB supposed to be clairvoyant and able to see injuries? That is what you are saying about Wheatley and Crable. While they haven't produced, how is BB supposed to know that Wheatley would break his LEFT WRIST and that Crable would be out for basically 2 years?

As for O'Connell, that was a perplexing pick at the time. While he wasn't really a reach, BB must hace seen something there. Only BB knows why O'Connell was cut this year.. My guess is attitude..

I thought that the Brace pick was great at the time. Considering that he's a rookie and that the Pats are in a 4-3 (Brace is more of a 3-4 NT), its not hard to understand why he's not getting playing time. The pats could also be working with him on weight, strength and agility to help improve him, but that's just speculation on my part. With Warren and Wilfork both out, potentially, this game will be a tell tale for us..

 

[mayoclinic]

Mayo- Is BB supposed to be clairvoyant and able to see injuries? That is what you are saying about Wheatley and Crable. While they haven't produced, how is BB supposed to know that Wheatley would break his LEFT WRIST and that Crable would be out for basically 2 years?

As for O'Connell, that was a perplexing pick at the time. While he wasn't really a reach, BB must hace seen something there. Only BB knows why O'Connell was cut this year.. My guess is attitude..

I thought that the Brace pick was great at the time. Considering that he's a rookie and that the Pats are in a 4-3 (Brace is more of a 3-4 NT), its not hard to understand why he's not getting playing time. The pats could also be working with him on weight, strength and agility to help improve him, but that's just speculation on my part. With Warren and Wilfork both out, potentially, this game will be a tell tale for us..

I'm not saying he should be clairvoyant, and hindsight is always 20/20. Just saying it's horrible productivity from 4 high picks so far (I'm deferring judgment on how they turn out, especially the Brace pick which I still think could be a very good one), and a missed opportunity. I think with 4 picks between 62 and 94 it would have been reasonable to expect some productivity by now from at least one of them, and we've gotten very little.

I'm not blaming BB, but in retrospect, it wasn't our best drafting.

 

[wilfork is beastin']

I wonder what a Raiders "draft redux" thread would look like

 

[ctpatsfan77]

I wonder what a Raiders "draft redux" thread would look like

YouTube - NY Jets Draft Blunders

 

[DaBruinz]

Da Bruinz do YOU read your own post. The LB crew took a hit in 2005? You know its 2009? You know that right. They had 3 years to draft linebackers, they didn't. Then you said is Belichick supposed to know if Brace is going to take a while to develop. The answer is YES. And if you're the Patriots and depth has been depleted you have to draft impact players. You can be patient with Brace if you keep Richard Seymour. And let's face it, they hoped Brace could step in so they don't have to pay Wilfolk. Another move by this organization to take the cheap route.

Yes, SFBs, I read my own posts. You clearly didn't read the post because I was responding to another poster.

1) Yes, I know its 2009. I also know that there have been other issues besides LB that the Pats have addressed, such as RB, CB, WR, OL, DL.

2) The Pats have attempted to address LB with the additions of Mayo, Crable, Mincey, Claridge, McKenzie, Ruud, Lua, signing Thomas, Signing Seau, re-signing TBC and trading for Burgess. BB couldn't have predicted the injuries to Crable, Claridge, McKenzie, Ruud and Lua. Just like he couldn't have predicted Claridge being so affected by the death of his brother.

3) What great 3-4 2 Gap LB could they have added besides Mayo? People love to mention all these other players, but they forget that those players are playing in different systems.. Most of them are One Gap sysems.

4) Brace and Seymour play different positions. One doesn't affect the other...

 

[condon84]

Glad to know that you think dealing in facts is crap. But then, with the garbage you've spewed over the past 2 years, Eskimos might actually believe they live in the tropics..

What fact am I disputing? That the Patriots are 8-5 and have lost all of our road games (London doesn't count). What fact did you throw out that I am disputing?

The Pats are 8-5 for a variety of reasons, and PART of it is the cumulative personnel decisions (no such word as accumulative). But there is such thing as player execution (which has nothing to do with talent) and coaching (which has nothing to do with player talent). And injuries (which has nothing to do with talent).

Player execution is not part of player talents? Isn't a player's brain part of the whole package in evaluating a players talents? You need a brain to learn your assignments, and apply them in game situations. And as far as injuries, our 03 and 04 teams that won SBs started a lot more different players because of injuries than this year's team. What does that tell you? We had depth back then, which we don't have now.


Like I said, maybe you should WATCH the games for a change and you should look at what Pryor is doing when he's on the field instead of making asinine statements like you do. OH WAIT. You can't do that. Then you couldn't keep pretending that you know more than BB and that you are some friggin god when it comes to personnel decisions....

When have I ever said I know more than BB or I had all the right answers? So now I can't have a discussion with other posters on the board regarding our teams' moves? It's only when YOU come in with all your anger, hurt feelings and aggressive posts does a discussion turn into a pissing contest. Dude you really have issues.

Condon, you clearly have yourself deluded into thinking that you know more than everyone else on this board and that you know more than Bill Belichick. At best, you are actually that dumbarse Tom Condon who absolutely hates the Patriots because of being fired by Ben Watson. At worst, your someone who knows next to nothing about football and just tries to pretend you know more than Belichick. Whichever it may be, you've shown that You're perceptions are surface ones at best and offer up nothing in terms of actual depth of the game.

Again, this is more applicable to you man. I don't lecture people like you and I NEVER dismiss anyone's opinion (other than yours because your a douche). I never attack people and make crazy assumptions like you do with all your posts.

In bold....

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Da Bruinz do YOU read your own post. The LB crew took a hit in 2005? You know its 2009? You know that right. They had 3 years to draft linebackers, they didn't. Then you said is Belichick supposed to know if Brace is going to take a while to develop. The answer is YES. And if you're the Patriots and depth has been depleted you have to draft impact players. You can be patient with Brace if you keep Richard Seymour. And let's face it, they hoped Brace could step in so they don't have to pay Wilfolk. Another move by this organization to take the cheap route.

Geesh not this guy again.

Uhhh, you do realize that the defense was ranked 3rd in 2006/ 4th in 2007/ 10th last year.

Furthermore, the defense is 7th this year in scoring with NO/Dolts as part of the mix. Most likely, they will end up top in scoring and 7-10 in total defense and top 5 in scoring.

The DL is the deepest in years, that why BB can actually be patient. What reality do you exist in where the D is being run over because of Brace?


I guess Thomas/Mayo/Guyton/Burrgess/Woods/Banta Cain isn't "replenishment" along the way.

Why not apply for work at "Friday Night Lights"?