"Draft Redux" - Don Banks

[mayoclinic]

Geesh not this guy again.

As long as you respond to him, he'll keep coming back. He just wants attention, like a spoiled 2 year old. Best thing to do is to ignore him.

 

[DaBruinz]

Originally Posted by DaBruinz
Glad to know that you think dealing in facts is crap. But then, with the garbage you've spewed over the past 2 years, Eskimos might actually believe they live in the tropics..

What fact am I disputing? That the Patriots are 8-5 and have lost all of our road games (London doesn't count). What fact did you throw out that I am disputing?

Please show me where I said you were disputing facts. Never said that. I said it was glad to know that dealing in facts is crap. It would seem that you have an issue with actually reading what is said.. Could explain a LOT..

The Pats are 8-5 for a variety of reasons, and PART of it is the cumulative personnel decisions (no such word as accumulative). But there is such thing as player execution (which has nothing to do with talent) and coaching (which has nothing to do with player talent). And injuries (which has nothing to do with talent).

Player execution is not part of player talents? Isn't a player's brain part of the whole package in evaluating a players talents? You need a brain to learn your assignments, and apply them in game situations. And as far as injuries, our 03 and 04 teams that won SBs started a lot more different players because of injuries than this year's team. What does that tell you? We had depth back then, which we don't have now.

Nope. Player execution has nothing to do with talent. All the draft busts, such as Ryan Leaf, Chad Jackson, etc etc prove that.

A player's brain is part of the package, but that is not talent. That is cognitive SKILLS. There is a difference.

The injuries to players were different and resulted in different players taking the field at different positions. One could reason that lack of depth is a function of talent.

Like I said, maybe you should WATCH the games for a change and you should look at what Pryor is doing when he's on the field instead of making asinine statements like you do. OH WAIT. You can't do that. Then you couldn't keep pretending that you know more than BB and that you are some friggin god when it comes to personnel decisions....

When have I ever said I know more than BB or I had all the right answers? So now I can't have a discussion with other posters on the board regarding our teams' moves? It's only when YOU come in with all your anger, hurt feelings and aggressive posts does a discussion turn into a pissing contest. Dude you really have issues.

You're whole attitude has been that you know more than BB and that you'd have done a better job than him. It's been that way the entire time you've posted.. Just like Captain Stone. Two peas in a pod.

You can have discussions all you want. What you seem to forget is that this is a public forum and other people can call out your schtick. I am as entitled to call out your BS and support it with facts as you are to post it..

There is no anger or hurt feelings on my part. Nor is it a "pissing contest".

Condon, you clearly have yourself deluded into thinking that you know more than everyone else on this board and that you know more than Bill Belichick. At best, you are actually that dumbarse Tom Condon who absolutely hates the Patriots because of being fired by Ben Watson. At worst, your someone who knows next to nothing about football and just tries to pretend you know more than Belichick. Whichever it may be, you've shown that You're perceptions are surface ones at best and offer up nothing in terms of actual depth of the game.

Again, this is more applicable to you man. I don't lecture people like you and I NEVER dismiss anyone's opinion (other than yours because your a douche). I never attack people and make crazy assumptions like you do with all your posts.

In bold....

You've regularly dismissed people's opinions and act holier than thou. It's what got me on your case to begin with..

What "crazy assumptions" do I make?

 

[PaulThePat]

As long as you respond to him, he'll keep coming back. He just wants attention

Need to be more precise. That description sounds like at least two 1000+ posters I can think of

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

As long as you respond to him, he'll keep coming back. He just wants attention, like a spoiled 2 year old. Best thing to do is to ignore him.

mayo

You are correct. Derision seems to have zero effect.

 

[mayoclinic]

Need to be more precise. That description sounds like at least two 10000+ posters I can think of

Fixed it for you.

 

[condon84]

You've regularly dismissed people's opinions and act holier than thou. It's what got me on your case to begin with..

What "crazy assumptions" do I make?

So being smart is not part of being talented now? I'll disagree with you there.

Your contention that my posts suggest I know more than BB is dumbfounding. I am one of the few that can be critical of Bill, and you may be confusing that with the notion that I think I know more than Bill. I've always stated that Bill is the best in the business and wouldn't want any other coach for the Pats. However, he is not outside of criticism. I call it as it is and that offends people like you.

Let's go back to the original argument. We are 8-5. We are still a very good team, but we are no longer elite. What happened? IMO, lack of playmakers and talent to be elite, but still have enough to be very good. How did we get here? Look at our drafts and FA pickups. Those guys were next in line after guys moved on (Rodney, Vrabel, Bruschi, Seymour, Asante, Colvin) but it is apparent that the replacements are not up to par. Could they develop into better players? Sure. I never argued that they never would. But they are not there right now.

 

[wilfork is beastin']

With the idea that the new guys aren't up to par with the "stars" of the Dynasty years, you have to remember that all of the key guys on defense didn't become studs overnight. Vrabel was a bust with the Steelers and was a JAG when he got here, Willie Mac was inconsistent early on, while Bruschi and Ty took several years to develop. BB waited a year or 2 too late to start addressing the defense, but with guys like Meriweather and Mayo coming into the mix he's rebuilding the defense, and hopefully with the abundance of picks we have this year he'll keep it going.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

So being smart is not part of being talented now? I'll disagree with you there.

Your contention that my posts suggest I know more than BB is dumbfounding. I am one of the few that can be critical of Bill, and you may be confusing that with the notion that I think I know more than Bill. I've always stated that Bill is the best in the business and wouldn't want any other coach for the Pats. However, he is not outside of criticism. I call it as it is and that offends people like you.

Let's go back to the original argument. We are 8-5. We are still a very good team, but we are no longer elite. What happened? IMO, lack of playmakers and talent to be elite, but still have enough to be very good. How did we get here? Look at our drafts and FA pickups. Those guys were next in line after guys moved on (Rodney, Vrabel, Bruschi, Seymour, Asante, Colvin) but it is apparent that the replacements are not up to par. Could they develop into better players? Sure. I never argued that they never would. But they are not there right now.

Hey mayo

Here's another needing some serious ignore.

Rodney, Vrabel, Bruschi, Seymour, Asante, Colvin.... Hey wait a minute aren't these the guys that "folded" in 2006/2007?

Did the definition of "developing" change? I mean if a player is "developing", is it no longer by definition mean that they should be "not there right now"?

It used to be that "developed" players are "there right now"?

 

[captain stone]

To having gotten the corner and OT the team wanted and needed at 41 and 58 is f***ing amazing. As you said in another thread, Mayock had us taking Butler at 23. Most everyone had Belichick wanting Butler as one his top choices. Most understood that we needed an OT. Some are still pi$$ing and moaning that we didn't take a tackle at 23 instead of 58. Belichick also got one of the top safeties and landed us the best deep snapper in the country. All the rest was playing with house money.

We needed a Pass Rusher - again - but didn't get one - again. Throwing away a 4th & 6th just to move up 7 spots to take Brace instead of a Pass Rusher like Barwin or Sintim was not playing with house money; quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[captain stone]

While I generally think it takes 3 years at least to evaluate a draft, I will say that we seem to have quite likely missed a golden opportunity with 4 picks between 62 and 94 in the 2008 draft. After drafting Mayo and losing our #31 pick to the Commish, we took:

62 - Terrance Wheatley, CB. Considered a reach. Has been injured, and hasn't seen the field with any consistency, mostly as a dime CB.

69 - traded to San Diego for a 2009 2nd round pick which turned out to be #47, which we traded up to Oakland for #40 to draft DT Ron Brace, who has barely seen the field this year and has been passed up on the depth chart by late round and PS guys.

78 - Shawn Crable, OLB - hasn't made it to the field once in 2 full regular seasons.

94 - Kevin O'Connell, QB - cut in training camp this year.

That's ridiculously low productivity from 4 relatively high picks, with almost 7 seasons combined so far. Admittedly, the 2008 3rd round wasn't one of the better ones and there were other busts (such as DE/OLB Bruce Davis, taken by the Steelers and cut this year in training camp), but I can't remember 4 picks so high producing so little. Brace could still turn out to be a good pick in the long run, but O'Connell was a wasted pick, and Wheatley and Crable are long shots to be major contributors at this point.

Throw in Lil' Johnny the Jokester Wilhite, the waste of oxygen Matt (They traded UP in the 5th round for whom?) Slater, and Bo the Worst 6th-round Pick of All Time Ruud, and what you have is a complete, unmitigated disaster - again. Kinda like the 2007 draft. And the 2004 draft (excl. Wilfork). Is it any wonder why this team can no longer finish games?

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

We needed a Pass Rusher - again - but didn't get one - again. Throwing away a 4th & 6th just to move up 7 spots to take Brace instead of a Pass Rusher like Barwin or Sintim was not playing with house money; quite the opposite, in fact.

Yeah, their COMBINED 18 tackle/ 3 sack YTD performance has done wonders for the Texan/ Giants defense. With similiar input we would be as good as those two teams.

Your talent evaluation is good. You need to be on "Friday Night Lights".

 

[bigfandan]

Throw in Lil' Johnny the Jokester Wilhite, the waste of oxygen Matt (They traded UP in the 5th round for whom?) Slater, and Bo the Worst 6th-round Pick of All Time Ruud, and what you have is a complete, unmitigated disaster - again. Kinda like the 2007 draft. And the 2004 draft (excl. Wilfork). Is it any wonder why this team can no longer finish games?

Like Bill himself said, it is what it is. Besides the forfeited pick, so many draft day screw-ups in these years, we have paid and are continuing to pay for in spades. Heart breaking loss after heart breaking loss against good teams. Struggling to win against weaklings. This season, almost everything is playing out as I thought it would. I don't share the optisim all lot of you have. The biggest down fall in Bill career so far is the league changing rules favoring offense and putting severe restrictions on corner plays. Bill is teaching a prevent defense and patiently waits for opposition to make mistakes, not taking the intiative to attack first. But referees are taught to throw PI flags much more frequently now since CBs are bound to have contacts with WRs (even accidential bumps and run-ins, and or on completely legal pass defense plays). The league has basically given the referees complete liberty to call pass interferences at any time from anywhere on any given pass play. 80 to 90% of PI calls are incorrect (or maybe better word is unjust), either worse PIs missed, or ticky/bogus PIs being called. (Like in NBA referee cheating scandal, this is a league ripe for gambling and cheating; we should set up anothe post for that discussion. That is why I am a fan of let'em play; because that way it is harder for gamblers to control the game's outcome via referees; there are referees being compromised by either money, sex, or secrets uncovered; it's well known that Colts own most of the referees and they expect gift calls during a game. (Gift PIs are most common). Referees know they must stay on the good side of Lord Polian. (Maybe Polian has some people's sex/gay sex tapes somewhere).

For those who try to play fair, the real effective way to deal with this is to make QB throw before the WRs have time to complete the route. The throw will be so far off target that the referee has 0% creditbility throwing a PI flag. To do this we should invest heavily on front 7, particularly the DE and OLB positions; we need to have strong pass rushers like Dallas, Colts, Chargers have. Because the only place league allows violent physical play is at the front 7. That is where Bill needs to work it. Forget about the dime package, or only rush 3, it is suicidal. Send 5 or 6 rushers and kill the QB on every play. He may get off a couple of good pass plays in the first quarter, but by hitting him hard every time, he won't finish the game. That should be our motto.

In the meanwhile, the Krafts should learn how to play the real games behind the scene (in the league office and with referees). money, drugs, sex, whatever Colts do, we can do too . You will find the game becomes a lot easier. We are way behind curve on this one.

 

[bigfandan]

5th - As has been pointed out to you previously and you continue to refuse to acknowledge, the Pats clearly felt that the other Pass Rushers in the draft were too one dimensional and didn't bring anything else. Such as the ability to set the edge.

You are so certain as if you were in the Pats draftday war-room yet you admitted that youo have <15% of data?
I would love to have Clay Mathews as pats' pass rusher, whom I asked for on draft day but Billmaster passed on.
The general optimism you have constantly shown in Bill's ability has not been validated by team's performance on the field last 2 years, or by players' developments in these two seasons. Many players that I hoped to step up by now on defensive side (like Woods, Crable, Gayton, Rudd, Redd, Burgess) had more than adquate time to develop but just have not worked out. Mostly it's because we drafted the wrong player (maybe Guyton is still serviable). I hope Bill stop making these mistakes on LBs. And you don't make the same arguements year after year. The book is closed on Rudd, Redd, and almost closed on Crable and Woods. My prediction is Mackenzie is a bust also. Because that's been Bill's track record. (besides one solid LB in Mayo who is more avearge starter than a star, pretty much everyone else is average backup to total busto). I am sure we will be back drafting LBs. There is a good chance is that this team will continue to suffer from lack of playmaking LBs and defense will suck in 2010 and 2011 if Bill doesnt wake up and take on a different path. I hope some folks will stop turning over more stones for excuses to defend him.

 

[jays52]

I hope some folks will stop turning over more stones for excuses to defend him.

I hope some folks can find actual validity for the detraction. The only thing the contrarians have in their defense is "me no like picks, picks no good at feetball, Belichick don't draft good". I'm still waiting for someone to make a single convincing football evaluation in support of the negative.

 

[bigfandan]

And for the rest of ya's. By the time Bill has this on straightened out, Brady will be gone, and he's why they won 3 Super Bowls.
.

That's the pissy part of it; instead of drafting highly regarded studs to improve the team, Bill prefers to rely on low round so called "value" picks, he trades out to lower rounds, he chooses quantity over quality, he watches other team take runs at geat LB prospects year after year; there seems to be no sense of urgency while Brady is getting hurt and gettig older.

It's almost as if picking Brady 199th has gone to his head and he wants to replicate that feat on LBs. Sure, hitting on a low round adds to your legacy; but he passed on some stud backers that were staring squarely at us, the likes of Woodley, Harris, Maualuga, Cushing, and Mathews, instead he drafted Woods and Crable and Mackenzie and Redd (value picks, guys no one wanted anyway) and have a couple of extra picks in 2010; you saved a few picks and a little money; but you never really address the issue with lower picks (as expected); you are back to board looking for LBs again next year; you repeat this year after year. It's time you stop trying to trade out and stack up future picks. It's time to trade up and get the one of the first LBs, value Quality over quantity. Future picks are nice but that can't be done at the expense of current team. The league gives you a full compliment of picks (1-7) each year anyway. The picks grow on trees; stars do not come out every year. It's just nuts beyond description why he wants to stockpile picks while we have NO LB play makers and while Brady/Moss/Welker are getting older. He should worry about winning SB more than his draft day legacy (once every 5 yrs he finds a 7 rd gem, so what?! who gives a damn to that stuff?). Sure finding Brady in 6th round is brilliant and that's part of your legacy; but there is no shame in drafting a stud LB with a high pick; especially after you have failed time and again drafting LBs in 3-7 rounds. So stop making the same errors. Maybe you should study the top of the board a little harder and not be so afraid of picking a LB in day one. Have a little more confidence in your ability and in others' abilities. To me, constantly trading down is almost lack of self belief, a little cowardly. You surely avoid big busts; but you let that your fear of big busts prevent you from addressing immediately needs of your team. Your old friend, Bill Parcells

 

[HEY BRO! WHAT UP?]

3rd - Yes, I think that this past draft was a good one. I think that they added a lot of dynamic players and that they scored on some players that they took a chance on. And, in the long run, that will help the team be better.

Dynamic huh? That's funny.

4th - The Pass rush wasn't neglected, contrary to your belief. They added Tyrone McKenzie in the draft. They aslo added Myron Pryor and Ron Brace and Derrick Burgess. Is BB supposed to be clairvoyant and know that McKenzie is going to tear his ACL in rookie camp and that Brace is going to take longer to develop than hoped? Pryor has been better than LeKevin Smtih ever was and has been a regular in the Defensive Line rotation. Burgess might be coming around, though he's been relatively unimpressive this year. And well, we all know about Brace not seeing the field. What we don't know is why.

Tyrone McKenzie? According to BB standards, I highly doubt he will be playing OLB for the Pats. They improved their pass rush with Ron Brace? You've got to be kidding me?
If you rely on your pass rush to come from your D-line, you're in serious trouble. Get used to seeing the Pats get picked apart on a regular basis.

6th - The linebackers took a huge hit in 2005 after Ted Johnson had to retire abruptly, Tedy Bruschi had his stroke and Jeremy Mincey came in with a lax attitude. On top of that, Monty Beisel and Chad Brown didn't pan out. How was BB supposed to know that Ted Johnson would have to retire the day before TC started? How was BB supposed to know that Phifer wasn't going to be ready and come back to the Patriots? How was he supposed to know that Beisel would be thrust into a starting role from day 1 of camp because of Johnson's retirement?

There you go. With all that crap that happened to the Patriots, you'd think they'd start rebuilding their LB's. They haven't.

7th - The defense has been one of the best in the league this year. Prior to the New Orleans game, they were giving up under 14 points a game. They are still only giving up 18 points a game and are 7th in the league, yet you think that means they are BAD???

This entire statement is pure comedy. Have you ever thought about being a comedian? I hope everyone on this messageboard sees this. If you haven't noticed, all but two of their opponents had average QB's and mediocre offenses at best. New Orleans and Indianapolis showed them what they are - average at best. Stats are for losers.

Why is it taking so long to replace the talent they lost? Because each player is unique and had a particular skill set. Because the Patriots defense is one of the most complex defenses around and it takes a player with dedication or savant like abilities to learn it. Because injuries happen and the players you put in aren't are different than the player you lost. Either they aren't as good as the players they replace or they lack experience. Because players get greedy and put the team in a lose lose situation when it comes to the contract.

People like you are so short-sighted, you can't see the forest for the trees.

I see a Patriots team that is 8-5 and looking worse every week. I see a team that refuses to fix what has been their Achilles' heel since 2005. I see a team that is falling victim to their own offensive and defensive scheme. I see a team on the brink of insanity. I see a team that is regressing extremely fast.

I hope you don't get upset when the Pats miss another opportunity to win a super bowl in 2009.

 

[Deus Irae]

I hope some folks can find actual validity for the detraction. The only thing the contrarians have in their defense is "me no like picks, picks no good at feetball, Belichick don't draft good". I'm still waiting for someone to make a single convincing football evaluation in support of the negative.

Oh, I think it's fair to say that there are legitimate questions that can be asked about this past draft, even if every player pans out. Some examples (I may, or may not, consider these as preferences, but am just noting them as possibles):

Why not Oher/Vollmer?

Why not an LB in round 2?

Why Tate in round 3?

etc.....


but there's a difference between "I wish" and "BB didn't choose what I would have, so he must have been wrong". I've noted repeatedly, for example, that I'd have preferred Clady over Mayo, because of the team's offensive focus, but Mayo was the DROY, so it would be pretty tough trying to claim that BB whiffed on the pick.

 

[Wretch]

Throw in Lil' Johnny the Jokester Wilhite, the waste of oxygen Matt (They traded UP in the 5th round for whom?) Slater, and Bo the Worst 6th-round Pick of All Time Ruud, and what you have is a complete, unmitigated disaster - again. Kinda like the 2007 draft. And the 2004 draft (excl. Wilfork). Is it any wonder why this team can no longer finish games?

Calling 5th and 6th round players busts or worst 6th round pick ever are reaches when criticizing the Pats drafting.

Say what you want about Chad Jackson, or Kevin O'Connell but you are reaching when you call late round picks, 2 of whom are solid contributors on defense or special teams, busts.

 

[SyN65]

It's easy to look back and talk about what your team should have picked. No one knows for sure just exactly how a rookie is going to pan out.

Belichicks drafting in the last few years has NOT been up to the standard set by them in the earlier part of the decade. This is a fact. The 09 draft looks decent but it's too early to judge.

You can't argue though that there are a lot of great players we missed out on in the 09 draft.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Yes, SFBs, I read my own posts. You clearly didn't read the post because I was responding to another poster.

1) Yes, I know its 2009. I also know that there have been other issues besides LB that the Pats have addressed, such as RB, CB, WR, OL, DL.

2) The Pats have attempted to address LB with the additions of Mayo, Crable, Mincey, Claridge, McKenzie, Ruud, Lua, signing Thomas, Signing Seau, re-signing TBC and trading for Burgess. BB couldn't have predicted the injuries to Crable, Claridge, McKenzie, Ruud and Lua. Just like he couldn't have predicted Claridge being so affected by the death of his brother.

3) What great 3-4 2 Gap LB could they have added besides Mayo? People love to mention all these other players, but they forget that those players are playing in different systems.. Most of them are One Gap sysems.
4) Brace and Seymour play different positions. One doesn't affect the other...

People keep saying "so and so isnt a good fit for our D" and You mention Mayo as the only fit so far so what does that say to you? To me it says change the damn system to accomidate the abundance of athletes coming into the NFL instead of looking for these perfect backers.