Dont'a Hightower at DE?

[pencilneckgeek]

The thing I keep harping on is with so many players able to play so many positions, it makes it very difficult for OC's to predict what the Pats will be doing based on personnel packages. For example. Think about this scenario. You have Easly and Kelly playing an off set 4-2 with Hightower and Collins stacking behind the DT's presenting the OL with a 4 on 3 potential.

The Pats can bring 2, 3, or all 4 in various combinations of straight gap or stem blitzes. This would put enormous pressure on the middle of the pass protection and almost assures the QB having to make a quick throw right into what could be a 4 or 5 man under defense designed to attack just those kinds of throw. Then using the exact same personnel have Hightower and Collins attacking the edge or being in some kind of coverage

The philosophy is one that Rex Ryan used back when the Jets had a top 3 D every year. Its not necessarily blitzing all the time, its creating the POSSIBILITY of that blitz every time. If the QB THINKS he's going to get immediate pressure, he's going to want to get the ball out quick. Defenders knowing the ball is coming out quick have an advantage, which allows them to be more aggressive.

It also forces both the QB AND the receivers all make the correct reads together since the windows will be smaller. So the QB has to hope what he is seeing is what he's going to get, hope his receivers are seeing the same thing he is, PLUS he needs to be more accurate because he's throwing into tight windows. That's a lot of "hoping" going on. Plus the fact, even if the play is successful, the completions are usually being made in the 6-10 yd range. So you have to be successful a lot to complete a scoring drive.

The Pats now have the personnel to do things like zone blitzes and overload blitzes. These are things we've never seen done by a BB team prior to this year. But if you look at the personnel he's assembling, he can do it now. All the LB can cover (some better than others). 2 of the LB's have the measurables to also be decent edge rushers, and all of them can be on the field when the ball is run.

My mind is having a hard time contemplating the myriad possibilities. I can't wait.

Exactly. I was just thinking that we now have the personnel to run **** LeBeau's scheme on any given play - an immovable object in the middle (Wilfork, Kelly, Siliga), dynamic penetrating 3-4 DEs (Easley, Jones, Armstead, Jones), strong capable press corners, powerful edge rushers who can drop into coverage (Nink, Hightower, Collins, Jones, Anderson), and ILBs who can drop or come forward on any play (Mayo, Hightower, Anderson). Ok, maybe our ILB depth doesn't point to a 3-4, but as you suggested we can definitely run a zone blitz or max coverage on any play. This is exactly the sort of scheme that could give Peyton (or another diagnose and adjust QB) fits. We might give up a big play (or 3 against Peyton), but there are going to be numerous drives that die on the vine. In this day and age, where most drives lead to points for the best offenses, forcing a handful of drives to go horribly wrong is a formula for success.

 

[Rob0729]

I thought Hightower was going to be MLB? I could see him moving around and rushing, but I'm guessing it's as much from an ILB position as a DE.

At our peak in 2003-4 we got a rush from all over, though that was a 3-4 usually.

My bad. I don't know why I said OLB. Maybe because that was what he played much of the year last year when Mayo went down.

 

[Brady6]

I read somewhere this offseason that the Pats are considering using Hightower at DE at times in sub packages this coming season. With the addition of Anderson, he is even more of the odd man out at LB in sub packages.

He has played with his hand in the dirt for Bama at times and been successful at it (see videos below). I mean if the Pats are looking to get faster on defense, a sub package of Jones and Hightower at DE, Easley and Chris Jones inside, and Collins and Anderson at LBs would definitely achieve that goal.

He gets a sack at DE here


At the :18 market he plays DE in two plays in a row. Gets a pressure on the first and bats down the ball in the second. At the 2:20 mark he plays OLB and makes a good rush off the edge and pressures the QB. At the 3:04 mark, he rushes from the outside and gets a QB hit.

I am all for working Hightower into the mix as sub pass rusher but I cannot see a reason that I would remove Rob Ninkovich who led the team with 86 QB pressures in 2013 from the field. I also cannot see a reason to take Jerod Mayo who is one of the best three down LBs in the NFL off the field ever unless he is exhausted.

If you wanted to include Hightower, more you could run these sets –

3-3-5
LE – Rob Ninkovich
DT – Dominique Easley
RE – Chandler Jones
SLB – Donta Hightower
MLB – Jerod Mayo
WLB – Jamie Collins

2-4-5
LOLB – Donta Hightower
DT – Dominique Easley
DT – Chandler Jones
ROLB – Rob Ninkovich
SILB – Jerod Mayo
WILB – Jamie Collins

Odd LB Dogs
LE – Rob Ninkovich
DT – Dominique Easley
Odd LB – Donta Hightower
RE – Chandler Jones
SLB – Jerod Mayo
WLB – Jamie Collins

 

[mgteich]

Armstead also. Unless if he's on the bubble?

Armstead is on the bubble.

If Smith is healthy, we have had a major improvement in DE depth, adding Smith. In addition, as mentioned, both Easley and Hightower might be DE's in certain situations.

IMHO, Armstead may make the team, but only if one of the veterans coming back from injuries isn't on the 53. Of course, this is quite possible.

 

[Rob0729]

I am all for working Hightower into the mix as sub pass rusher but I cannot see a reason that I would remove Rob Ninkovich who led the team with 86 QB pressures in 2013 from the field. I also cannot see a reason to take Jerod Mayo who is one of the best three down LBs in the NFL off the field ever unless he is exhausted.

If you wanted to include Hightower, more you could run these sets –

3-3-5
LE – Rob Ninkovich
DT – Dominique Easley
RE – Chandler Jones
SLB – Donta Hightower
MLB – Jerod Mayo
WLB – Jamie Collins

2-4-5
LOLB – Donta Hightower
DT – Dominique Easley
DT – Chandler Jones
ROLB – Rob Ninkovich
SILB – Jerod Mayo
WILB – Jamie Collins

Odd LB Dogs
LE – Rob Ninkovich
DT – Dominique Easley
Odd LB – Donta Hightower
RE – Chandler Jones
SLB – Jerod Mayo
WLB – Jamie Collins

Because Nink shouldn't be on the field 95% of the time especially now that he hit the 30 year old mark. People forget that back in the dynasty years, they platooned McGinest, Vrabel, and Colvin a lot (at least in 2004). If they can take McGinest and Vrabel in their primes off the field at times, they certainly can take Ninkovich off the field.

And Mayo is not great in coverage. He improved incredibly last year from previous years, but he was just average to above average. There will be times where you are going to want to go with a light and fast LBing corp on sub packages. You don't want Mayo being covering a quick slot receiver or a move TE all that much. You can get Anderson to cover them though.

 

[mgteich]

Perhaps, Ninkovich can play less on 1st down. I agree that we should not be sitting him in sub package.

BTW, we are demonstrating how important it was to add a quality linebacker. Adding Anderson helps the entire front seven. Obviously, adding Easley and Smith also helped.

DE: Ninkovich, Jones, Smith, Buchanan
DT: Wilfork, Kelly, Siliga, Jones
DE/DT: Easley
DE/LB: Hightower
LB: Mayo, Collins, Anderson, Beauharnais
15th front 7 player: most likely a LB or a LB/STer, or could be a 10th DL (especially with an injury)

Armstead may be valuable enough to keep, or not. He would need to be more valuable than one of the players above AND be more valuable than Vellano, Forston, Moore, Bequette, Fleming, Hull, White, Davis and the UDFA linebackers. IMHO, this is a tall order if everyone is healthy.

I am all for working Hightower into the mix as sub pass rusher but I cannot see a reason that I would remove Rob Ninkovich who led the team with 86 QB pressures in 2013 from the field. I also cannot see a reason to take Jerod Mayo who is one of the best three down LBs in the NFL off the field ever unless he is exhausted.

If you wanted to include Hightower, more you could run these sets –

3-3-5
LE – Rob Ninkovich
DT – Dominique Easley
RE – Chandler Jones
SLB – Donta Hightower
MLB – Jerod Mayo
WLB – Jamie Collins

2-4-5
LOLB – Donta Hightower
DT – Dominique Easley
DT – Chandler Jones
ROLB – Rob Ninkovich
SILB – Jerod Mayo
WILB – Jamie Collins

Odd LB Dogs
LE – Rob Ninkovich
DT – Dominique Easley
Odd LB – Donta Hightower
RE – Chandler Jones
SLB – Jerod Mayo
WLB – Jamie Collins

 

[RayClay]

Armstead is on the bubble.

If Smith is healthy, we have had a major improvement in DE depth, adding Smith. In addition, as mentioned, both Easley and Hightower might be DE's in certain situations.

IMHO, Armstead may make the team, but only if one of the veterans coming back from injuries isn't on the 53. Of course, this is quite possible.

How can we say Armstead is on the bubble, when we have no idea what he's ready to do? He could, conceivably, be more ready than any of our DT prospects, with three coming back from injuries and three UDFAs available to anyone.

Armstead has shown the ability to deliver the type of play we're looking for, but his health and readiness are a mystery. On the bubble means a player is known to have a marginal chance and we don't know that about Armstead at all.

 

[Ring 6]

Are we assuming Will smith will be cut?

Smith is more of a 1st and 2nd down DE than a sub package DE.
Putting Hightower in the mix to get reps as a sub DE (and by the way, I don't think it is likely to happen anyway, the thread is based on 'i think i read somewhere') doesn't require cutting the next best DE behind the starters.

 

[Ring 6]

Perhaps, Ninkovich can play less on 1st down. I agree that we should not be sitting him in sub package.

BTW, we are demonstrating how important it was to add a quality linebacker. Adding Anderson helps the entire front seven. Obviously, adding Easley and Smith also helped.

DE: Ninkovich, Jones, Smith, Buchanan
DT: Wilfork, Kelly, Siliga, Jones
DE/DT: Easley
DE/LB: Hightower
LB: Mayo, Collins, Anderson, Beauharnais
15th front 7 player: most likely a LB or a LB/STer, or could be a 10th DL (especially with an injury)

Armstead may be valuable enough to keep, or not. He would need to be more valuable than one of the players above AND be more valuable than Vellano, Forston, Moore, Bequette, Fleming, Hull, White, Davis and the UDFA linebackers. IMHO, this is a tall order if everyone is healthy.

Wow, based on unsupported comments in this thread you have changed 2 players positions.
Easley is not a DE in the system we have have used for 2 years.
Hightower is not a DE/LB. He is a LB that someone suggested they would like to see tried as a reserve sub package DE, something he has not done at all in his 2 years here.

Also, it would be fantastic if we could sit Ninkovich in sub packages, but we don't have anyone yet to play there that can be more effective than his mediocre play.

 

[Ring 6]

I thought Hightower was going to be MLB? I could see him moving around and rushing, but I'm guessing it's as much from an ILB position as a DE.

At our peak in 2003-4 we got a rush from all over, though that was a 3-4 usually.

We can do everything from a 43 we ever did from a 34. The principles are all the same, its just a minor alignment difference, especially in pass defense.

 

[goheels22002]

The defensive line is crowded with talented players. Nice problem to have this year.

With the addition of Anderson at LB, the only spot on defense begging for someone to claim it is Strong Safety. There are no free agents out there that I could find who are worth looking at. It's too bad Ed Reed is washed up. How cool would it be to see Revis and Ed Reed lined up on the same side of the field?

 

[Kontradiction]

The defensive line is crowded with talented players. Nice problem to have this year.

With the addition of Anderson at LB, the only spot on defense begging for someone to claim it is Strong Safety. There are no free agents out there that I could find who are worth looking at. It's too bad Ed Reed is washed up. How cool would it be to see Revis and Ed Reed lined up on the same side of the field?

I think that battle is going to be between Ryan and Harmon. Ryan being there would make the back end one of the toughest to throw against, but the team better pray that the front seven is able to stop the run because that's a safety duo that can get run over my a more physical, downhill runner with linemen out in front of him.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

On the bubble means a player is known to have a marginal chance and we don't know that about Armstead at all.

Is that what it means? I need a dictionary of lazy sportswriters' colloquialisms. We have training camp fodder, players on the bubble, and players on the team. What's the term for the handful of guys every year who might or might not make the roster, depending on decisions on details that are beyond our knowledge-base as fans sitting outside the locker room?

 

[Marqui]

I think that battle is going to be between Ryan and Harmon. Ryan being there would make the back end one of the toughest to throw against, but the team better pray that the front seven is able to stop the run because that's a safety duo that can get run over my a more physical, downhill runner with linemen out in front of him.

If an RB got past your Dline with Olinmen in front of him, your run D already got ran over.

 

[captain stone]

I think that battle is going to be between Ryan and Harmon. Ryan being there would make the back end one of the toughest to throw against, but the team better pray that the front seven is able to stop the run because that's a safety duo that can get run over my a more physical, downhill runner with linemen out in front of him.

That's why I would like to see somebody like Reed Doughty (whom I would've signed before Patrick Chunks) brought here for a workout.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I think the quality and ability to suppress the run by the MLBs is going to be a big issue this next season Big and talented Hightower and proven Mayo will have to do yeoman efforts, in back of a changing DL. Hightower to DE is a non-issue until the possible susceptability to the run is stopped.

 

[Marqui]

And Mayo is not great in coverage. He improved incredibly last year from previous years, but he was just average to above average. There will be times where you are going to want to go with a light and fast LBing corp on sub packages. You don't want Mayo being covering a quick slot receiver or a move TE all that much. You can get Anderson to cover them though.

Mayo is the brains of the defense a 100% of the snaps player. If he's not hurt he won't come off the field under any circumstances.

 

[Kontradiction]

If an RB got past your Dline with Olinmen in front of him, your run D already got ran over.

Not necessarily. If you have a bigger SS type that can both cover and come up to take on the run, you're not in trouble if the RB breaches your front seven. The Pats don't have that and it's the reason why so many of us were pounding the table for guys like KPL or Exum.

 

[Rob0729]

Mayo is the brains of the defense a 100% of the snaps player. If he's not hurt he won't come off the field under any circumstances.

It is doubtful Mayo will play 100% of the plays. He never has. And depending on the opponent, virtually anyone can see their role minimized at least a bit except maybe Revis.

Mayo sat 50 plays in 2012. Not a huge amount, but that was when the Pats were painfully thin at LB. I could see that increase to 75-100 with more depth at LB for at least sub packages.

Mayo isn't going to sit for long stretches, but he could easily be taken out of the gameplan quite a bit for a single game if the Pats are facing a small fast offense that demands a lot more coverage by the LBers.

 

[pencilneckgeek]

It is doubtful Mayo will play 100% of the plays. He never has. And depending on the opponent, virtually anyone can see their role minimized at least a bit except maybe Revis.

Mayo sat 50 plays in 2012. Not a huge amount, but that was when the Pats were painfully thin at LB. I could see that increase to 75-100 with more depth at LB for at least sub packages.

Mayo isn't going to sit for long stretches, but he could easily be taken out of the gameplan quite a bit for a single game if the Pats are facing a small fast offense that demands a lot more coverage by the LBers.

And he may get the occasional drive off when the other team is trying to play catch-up by throwing the ball. However, this won't happen much until later in the year when we have someone else who can run the defense and provide value in coverage. This could be Anderson or it could be our SS or maybe Collins, but I don't know if he will be ready to step into that role.