Does McDaniels hold this team back?

[nickw308810]

So you make Brady and the rest of the offense less effective to accomodate Stallworth? Sorry, there are 53 men on the team and it is every man's responsibilities to learn the plays. There is only so much a coach can do. That is why Belichick runs tests on opponents and if you don't pass, you don't play. Belichick expects a lot out of his players. Besides, who said it was McDaniels' decision or at least his sole decision. Belichick could have made this decision to demote him in favor of Gaffney.

Of course you don't limit the rest of the offense, but Stallworth is too talented to get as little out of his role as he did. Whose fault was it, his or McDaniels? I am assuming both, but as I said, as a coach it is your job to get the most out of your players that you can and I don't feel that was done in this case. You can't say things were 100% on Donte as you did ealier. I am not very hung up on the demotion, I actually didn't even mention it.

Sorry, everyone's playbooks have presnap adjustments. All the adjustments are intertwined with each other. You can't in many cases have one player change his route without every player changing his route.

Then what is a hot route...? The point I was making though, was that you really have no idea if Moss or Welker struggled with or what changes were made in practice. You are just making blanket statements putting all the blame on Stallworth and none on McDaniels.

I disagree that McDaniels didn't make adjustments at all. You can argue he made the wrong adjustments, but he clearly made adjustments.

Both my posts on the subject said he didn't make the necessary adjustments, not that he didn't make any adjustments.

 

[Rob0729]

Of course you don't limit the rest of the offense, but Stallworth is too talented to get as little out of his role as he did. Whose fault was it, his or McDaniels? I am assuming both, but as I said, as a coach it is your job to get the most out of your players that you can and I don't feel that was done in this case. You can't say things were 100% on Donte as you did ealier. I am not very hung up on the demotion, I actually didn't even mention it.

Maybe Stallworth just didn't fit into the offense as they liked. I am sorry, but Moss and Welker are more important to the offense. It is the job of an OC to get the most out of the offense, not individual players. It is the position coach responsible for individual preparation. The OC doesn't have time to work with each individual player. So if you are going to blame a coach for not preparing him, that would fall on Nick Caserio. That may be part of the reason why he was moved back into the front office after one year at WRs coach. He did only leave the front office for this one year.

Then what is a hot route...? The point I was making though, was that you really have no idea if Moss or Welker struggled with or what changes were made in practice. You are just making blanket statements putting all the blame on Stallworth and none on McDaniels.

A hot route is a single play. I am talking about the overall playbook. Hence why I said you can't make "many" cases when only one player adjusts his route alone. I know it happens, but only a percentage of the plays.

JoeSixPack seems to blaming McDaniels' 100%. I do give McDaniels' very little percentage because as I said above it isn't the coordinator's job to work with individual players.

Both my posts on the subject said he didn't make the necessary adjustments, not that he didn't make any adjustments.

I still blame execution over scheming, but I do believe McDaniels deserves his share of the blame for the Super Bowl.

 

[BionicPatriot]

This thread went to 11 pages in a day. Get a life people

I just made this thought because I just think McDaniels isn't always the best at adjusting. Funny, I thought all of 2007 he adjusted well outside of the biggest game of the season. there was absolutely no change in game plans from either half. Compare that to the Philly/Baltimore games where McDaniels does adjust and they come back. So maybe McDaniels just craps the bed in the 2nd half? This post season and last season the offense was outplayed in the second half in the post season.

Not to sound nitpicky, but lets be real. Your not a genius coach in a season. Your a good coach when you win in the post season. It's about adjusting, winning the big games. McDaniels has a good resume in terms of stats for an OC, but in big games his offense was dead in the second half. Is Belichick considered a genius because of his all-time W-L, or his post season performance? Think about it.

 

[Rob0729]

This thread went to 11 pages in a day. Get a life people

I just made this thought because I just think McDaniels isn't always the best at adjusting. Funny, I thought all of 2007 he adjusted well outside of the biggest game of the season. there was absolutely no change in game plans from either half. Compare that to the Philly/Baltimore games where McDaniels does adjust and they come back. So maybe McDaniels just craps the bed in the 2nd half? This post season and last season the offense was outplayed in the second half in the post season.

Not to sound nitpicky, but lets be real. Your not a genius coach in a season. Your a good coach when you win in the post season. It's about adjusting, winning the big games. McDaniels has a good resume in terms of stats for an OC, but in big games his offense was dead in the second half. Is Belichick considered a genius because of his all-time W-L, or his post season performance? Think about it.

11 pages? If certain people(person) who will remain nameless was around, this thread would go for 30 plus pages.

Sorry, stuck doing work this weekend and using this thread to make me think I am actually enjoying myself as I give up my entire Sunday afternoon and evening for my job.

Tired of arguing about it now though.

 

[bigdgp]

You are complaining about throwing the ball on 3rd and 4 when the Pats already lost Faulk and Dillon for the game and Maroney was no all that effective (or do you call 8 carries for 13 yards a good game)? Apparently you forget that two of our three best running option were already out of the game in that situation.

Besides, you run the ball in that situation and you don't get it, the Colts would still get the ball back with over 2 minutes with three time outs left. If you think 30 seconds in that situation would have made the difference in the game, you don't know what you are talking about.

Weak argument. McDaniels made the right call there to throw in that case because the Pats didn't have a RB who was likely to get them 4 yards in that situation. On 3rd and 4 when your opponent has the two minute warning and three time outs left, you make the third down and then you worry about running out the clock.

As for 1st and goal when you are down by more than 3 and there is less than 3 minutes left, you go for a TD. What if the Pats got a holding penalty? Kicking the field goal and running down the clock wouldn't have helped now would it.

Again, the Giants also had the 2 minute warning and three time outs left in their arsenal. If the Pats ran the ball those two plays, the worst case scenario they would have been looking at would have been the ball with about 1:45 left on the clock and 3 time outs. Yes, it would have been a worse situation than they ended up having. But since they scored 2:07 in the last last drive, you are not talking about insurmountable odds here. It would have been impossible for the Pats offense to run down the clock enough not to give the Giants over a minute and a half to work with and at least 2 time outs.

If you really think that was the difference in those games, you are clueless. It might have made some difference in the Super Bowl, but not enough to stop the Giants from making a drive if they did it right. What are you going to argue next? The time on the 40 second clock when Brady snapped the ball. Sorry, your arguments are weak.

I'm an idiot for believing that managing the clock better in those games would have more likely resulted in us winning? Let's see, in both of those games our offense failed to score and win the game because the limited time on the clock forced us into situations that didn't allow us to execute our offenses very well. But if we had managed the clock better and the opposing team had less time to score during their winning drives it wouldn't have put them into worse situations and given our defense better opportunities to capitlize on. The Giants almost coughed up the game with the time they had left! You don't think having 30-60 less seconds on the clock wouldn't have put that much more pressure on them and made it more likely our defense would have capitalized? Put the keyboard down, stop following football, I think there is a checkers league you can start following next week...

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

eat a dic k...

Wow, a great play caller and a snappy comebacker! Your parents must be proud beyond words.

"I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing." Socrates

 

[aabtec]

16-0

#1 scoring offense in NFL history


Next question

They lost the SB...very good question....

 

[Rob0729]

I'm an idiot for believing that managing the clock better in those games would have more likely resulted in us winning? Let's see, in both of those games our offense failed to score and win the game because the limited time on the clock forced us into situations that didn't allow us to execute our offenses very well. But if we had managed the clock better and the opposing team had less time to score during their winning drives it wouldn't have put them into worse situations and given our defense better opportunities to capitlize on. The Giants almost coughed up the game with the time they had left! You don't think having 30-60 less seconds on the clock wouldn't have put that much more pressure on them and made it more likely our defense would have capitalized? Put the keyboard down, stop following football, I think there is a checkers league you can start following next week...

Yes! Because better clock management wouldn't have prevented either the Colts or the Giants to have enough time on the board to mount game winning drives. There is no scenario you can come up with that the Patriots could have ran down the clock to have less time on the board and burn enough time outs that would have prevented the Colts from scoring in the same amount of time as they did.

It is stupidity and a complete lack of understanding of football to blame McDaniels for him choosing to use the play he thought was best to convert the down in the AFCCG. Since you have a complete lack of understanding of football, I guess you didn't realize that if the Pats completed the pass the clock would have kept the clock running and if they ran the ball and didn't make the first down that they would have give the ball back to the Colts with only 40 less seconds. That means that under your scenario, the Colts would have gotten the ball back with a little over 2 minutes with the two minute warning and three time outs. Clearly not enough time for a scrub like Manning to mount a drive.

I'm sorry that simple logic and actual football strategy in my thought process. Why blame the fact that the Pats gave up 34 points in second half for the AFCCG loss when you can blame McDaniels for not using the clock better to give the Colts plenty of time, but less time to score the game winner.

If McDaniels did what you wanted him to, the outcome would have probably been that the Colts still win and the Pats only have about 20 seconds to try to try a comback drive. I think that is a huge difference.

You can argue the 1st and goal to a point, but it is clearly not why they lost. You really can't blame him too much when the Giants in a best case scenario would have had nearly 2 minutes and 2 times outs to score. So he can get part of the blame, but clearly wasn't responsible because of that drive.

As for coughing up the ball argument, the reason they didn't cough up the ball were because of errors by the Patriots. Samuel and Meriweather dropped interceptions and we had Manning dead to rights for a sack and they couldn't have brought them down combined with an impossible pass reception by Tyree. If the Giants had less times, I don't think those errors would have been corrected.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

To me, the bottom line is that we can raise any questions we want about game plans or in-game adaptations towards the end, but McDaniels was the OC for the most prolific passing offense in NFL history, which won 18 games.

We can argue until we're blue in the face that he was working with a future HOF QB, with one of the two or three best WR's in NFL history plus Wes Welker, but the W's are still on the books.

IMO, this year represents McDaniel's real test. Other teams now feel, rightly or wrongly, that they have a "blueprint" for stopping the Patriots' Offense. It is reasonable to argue that responsibility for adapting to that (certainly better than in the SB) will reside to a great extent with the OC. Let's all give him that chance and see how he does.

 

[JoeSixPat]

To me, the bottom line is that we can raise any questions we want about game plans or in-game adaptations towards the end, but McDaniels was the OC for the most prolific passing offense in NFL history, which won 18 games.

We can argue until we're blue in the face that he was working with a future HOF QB, with one of the two or three best WR's in NFL history plus Wes Welker, but the W's are still on the books.

IMO, this year represents McDaniel's real test. Other teams now feel, rightly or wrongly, that they have a "blueprint" for stopping the Patriots' Offense. It is reasonable to argue that responsibility for adapting to that (certainly better than in the SB) will reside to a great extent with the OC. Let's all give him that chance and see how he does.

I guess you have to ask yourself how much credit you give to Brady and Moss and how much to McDaniels.

Its also worth asking yourself if you noticed Defenses adapting and limiting the damage done by Moss in particular as the season wore on. Not that anyone could truly "stop" Moss - but would you say the offense was as dominant at the end of the season as it was at the beginning?

I don't think it was. Part of that in my assessment is that with Stallworth and Moss both lining up on either side, Defenses were forced to "pick their poison." Devote too much coverage to Moss and Brady/McDaniels will burn them with Stallworth deep.

But when that never happened on a consistent basis Defenses were able to devote more coverage to Moss knowing that McDaniels - for whatever the reason - wasn't going to send Stallworth long.

Most teams don't have that luxury of course - we did but didn't use it and now we're asking ourselves "why". Maybe we'll find out that the production Stallworth had with the Eagles the year before and the Saints before that are a thing of the past - that he lost his skills and found that plays which involved him running fast and deep were "too complicated".

His production with the Browns should be telling. If he again becomes a significant deep threat we'll have to ask why Stallworth can serve that role everywhere else but not here.

I think we'd all be in agreement that if we did have another deep threat opposite Moss, it would have taken pressure off of Moss and been a help to the offense overall.

 

[tedylb]

To me, the bottom line is that we can raise any questions we want about game plans or in-game adaptations towards the end, but McDaniels was the OC for the most prolific passing offense in NFL history, which won 18 games.

We can argue until we're blue in the face that he was working with a future HOF QB, with one of the two or three best WR's in NFL history plus Wes Welker, but the W's are still on the books.

IMO, this year represents McDaniel's real test. Other teams now feel, rightly or wrongly, that they have a "blueprint" for stopping the Patriots' Offense. It is reasonable to argue that responsibility for adapting to that (certainly better than in the SB) will reside to a great extent with the OC. Let's all give him that chance and see how he does.

Excellent post. Now let's move on.

 

[richpats]

IMO, this year represents McDaniel's real test. Other teams now feel, rightly or wrongly, that they have a "blueprint" for stopping the Patriots' Offense. It is reasonable to argue that responsibility for adapting to that (certainly better than in the SB) will reside to a great extent with the OC. Let's all give him that chance and see how he does.

My greatest fear with McDaniels is that he will successfully adapt, but then he'll become complacent with his playcalls (like in 2007).

 

[VJCPatriot]

What they needed was somebody more like david givens and less like moss on the backside. A tough possession type guy whom if presented w/ a single corner wins that batle all day.

Would that be the cue for Chad Jackson to step up?

As for the playoff losses the past 2 years they all have one thing in common, the Pats were not able to run the ball effectively in either of those games. If you don't have the running game to run out the clock, that takes away a valuable option when you're leading. The Pats offense sputtered in the Superbowl against the Giants for numerous reasons. The mystery is what adjustments if any, McDaniels made in the second half. It's really hard to second guess exactly what he did wrong, but the results speak for themselves.

Hopefully McDaniels learns from his mistakes quickly. Weiss will be remembered as a genius because he called the plays for 3 SB wins, even if he never coached a team to a record # of points in the regular season. If the Pats don't win another Superbowl soon with McDaniels calling the plays... he's not going to be welcome here in NE for long.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I guess you have to ask yourself how much credit you give to Brady and Moss and how much to McDaniels....

Thoughtful post. The bottom line is that I don't feel I can know the answer to that question at this point, given how the season unfolded (and then unraveled at the very end). It's almost impossible to argue with 18 wins, but there is also evidence that there wasn't enough "adapting." That's why I say let's see what happens this year and add the data to our assessment of McDaniels."

 

[PatsFanSince74]

My greatest fear with McDaniels is that he will successfully adapt, but then he'll become complacent with his playcalls (like in 2007).

I don't think that will work this time. The half life of the Pats ability to stay ahead of opponents' adaptation will be measured in weeks, not months this season.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Excellent post. Now let's move on.

thanks. I hope Josh is as good as his most vocal advocates think he is.

 

[Deus Irae]

I guess you have to ask yourself how much credit you give to Brady and Moss and how much to McDaniels.

Why would anyone have to do that when they could just look at the job done getting the team to the AFCCG the year before? Perhaps if people would take note of the vastly different offensive styles utilized from one year to the next, they would understand that McDaniels was actually doing his job, and doing it well. There's clearly plenty of credit to be given, and more than enough to go around. I didn't even love offensive system this season, because I'd have preferred more inside slants and more plays with the outside receivers in motion. Nonetheless, credit is due. It may not have been what I wanted to see, but it was the most effective offense in NFL history.

Its also worth asking yourself if you noticed Defenses adapting and limiting the damage done by Moss in particular as the season wore on. Not that anyone could truly "stop" Moss - but would you say the offense was as dominant at the end of the season as it was at the beginning?

The offense was "dominant" in the middle of the season. New England's regular season was comprised of 3 'parts' on offense: Weeks 1-5, weeks 6-10 and weeks 11-16. Weeks 1-5 saw the team playing poor defenses, playing well and scoring in the 30's. Weeks 6-10 saw the offense explode for games in the 40's and 50's, but also saw the Colts game where the team only scored 24. Weeks 11-16 saw a return to a more normal offense, with bad weather and better defenses (and the "chuck one up for Randy" offense in the second half of the Dolphins game) limiting the scoring.

Maybe we'll find out that the production Stallworth had with the Eagles the year before and the Saints before that are a thing of the past - that he lost his skills and found that plays which involved him running fast and deep were "too complicated".

His production with the Browns should be telling. If he again becomes a significant deep threat we'll have to ask why Stallworth can serve that role everywhere else but not here.

I think we'd all be in agreement that if we did have another deep threat opposite Moss, it would have taken pressure off of Moss and been a help to the offense overall.

In 6 seasons in the NFL, last season's 4 "long" catches places third highest in his career, despite his role being reduced as the season went on. The only two seasons with more "long" catches were years in which he was his team's primary deep threat. This is what you consistently overlook. In New England, Randy Moss was the team's #1 receiver and #1 deep threat. Stallworth has been on 3 teams with good coaching and pass oriented offenses, and all 3 have sent him packing or allowed him to leave, depending on how you wish to phrase it.

And, again, New England's receivers caught plenty of "long" passes, and did fine getting deep. You just keep ignoring that and belittling the job that players like Gaffney did.

 

[Rob0729]

thanks. I hope Josh is as good as his most vocal advocates think he is.

As one of McDaniels "vocal advocates" I still think he is far from perfect is an above average OC, but still has room to grow.

The OC position has always been a lightning rod since 2000. Weis got a ton of crap for his play calling prior to 2004, not nearly as much as McDaniels.

I guess I will never get why people want to pin all the problems of one team on one player or coach. The funny thing was that last year at this time the loss of the AFCCG was Reche Caldwell's responsibility and now people want to transfer that blame over to McDaniels. Most team wins and losses are a team responsibility. No one player or coach (baring maybe Belichick or Brady) has enough power to decide a win or a loss on their own.

With McDaniels, in 2006 people trashed him because the defense was above average but not stellar and said that talent isn't an excuse. Now the offense is the most prolific in NFL history and people say anyone could have done with the talent McDaniels had. Or if Weis had this talent, imagine what he would do. So apparently talent only matters if it suits your argument.

Well short story, long. I defend McDaniels not because I think he is an offensive genius (although based on his short career so far, he may be one day), but more to contradict the piling on the guy for many things out his control. To blame him for the loss in AFCCG against the Colts or the Division round against the Broncos, as several people have, flies in the face of what really happened in those games. You can point dozens of reasons we lost those games that had nothing to do with the offensive playcalling or strategy. He deserves more of the responsibility for the Super Bowl loss, but no where all of it or a lionshare. That is why I defend the guy.

 

[stcjones]

I'm watching the Sox, I'm bored..And I'm thinking. Am I wrong suddenly thinking McDaniels hurts this team? Last year, the guy had the best passing attack ever. But then one thing bugs me..The running game. Here we have Maroney breaking into the season at the perfect time. My concern is, why does he not use Maroney like he could? If Weis was our OC, I bet he would have turned into a receiver during the super bowl.

Maroney is a very special talent, IMO. I think besides being able to be a good runner, he'd be good at taking little screens and making big plays out of them. Why didn't McDaniels barely try this when they couldn't get a pass off? I just don't understand it, it's not like teams never rushed the Patriots before, they just adjusted using screens under Weis.

I just don't want another season pissed away. IMO, if the defense is straight heading into this season, I think this Patriot team is the favorite. I DON'T want to see them ******* lose AGAIN because our OC can't make adjustments. I think having Morris stay healthy for a full season may hopefully make this offense 100% balanced. Maybe not as "dominating" at times as last season, but better balanced.

BINGO!!!!! WE HAVE BINGO!!!!!

Yes, I for one think that McDaniels was a killer in the SB this year and towards the end of the season...McD did pretty well when Moss was being covered one on one.....and it was the Moss/Welker show that racked up plenty of points ...But.....Once Moss got double teamed and taken out of the offense...and even welker was getting manhandled at the LOS.......McD made NO adjustments to get Stallworth or anyone else more involved in the O.....and did not come with any creative plays TO GET MOSS back involved somehow in our offense late in the season.........He DID UNDER-utilize Maroney in the passing game out of the backfield.......the few times he did call in passing plays to Maroney on short passes in the flat they went for big gains.....then, he stopped going to him for some reason. McD also seems like the kind of OC where if a play gets stuffed ONE Time.....he will not go back to it again for a long time.....(Well except for the Shotgun RB draw to Maroney that got stuffed almost every time but McD kept going back to it over and over again!!!) I shudder to think what Weis would have done with all this firepower this year.....One thing for SURE about Charlie....he would have made ADJUSTMENTS during the halftime at the SB this year.....and I feel pretty confident that we would have WON that damned game!!!! But the boy blunder will be back for another season.....so get used to it.....Hopefully he is doing more homework this offseason

 

[stcjones]

I'm sorry. I don't buy that McDaniels is a good OC in the regular season and the playoffs, but sucks in the Super Bowl. Hey, Weis did not call a great game in either the Super Bowls vs. the Rams and Eagles, but people aren't trashing him because the defense did their job when needed.

Rob.....Weis had what .....1/10th of the talent to work with at best that McD had>?????? Puhleese....this is apples and oranges.........McD was working with a Lamborghini........Weis was working with a Ford Pinto..........I am confident that Weis would have made the adjustments necessary to put the Gints D back on their heels and get the pressure off Brady.....Yes, Light....Kaczur and Mankins got prison raped out there by the Gint D........but surely McD did not make the adjustments or creative calls needed to stop the one dimensional NY attack.......that was pathetic......