Does McDaniels hold this team back?

[JoeSixPat]

Occasionally, we have posters who believe that they can coach better than professional coaches who have dedicated decades to the game, and especially better than our offensive coordinators. Perhaps we can again post the url of NEM's site. I'm sure he'd be glad to have you aboard. And Weiss was disliked and criticized on this site much more than McDaniels.

As we used to tell NEM, now we tell you: Send in your resume to Bill and Scotty. I'm sure if you are knowledgable as you say and as good at analyzing game situation, that surely there is a job for you in the patriots organization, perhaps even replacing Josh at OC.

Great. So no more criticisms - constructive or otherwise - of the team folks - otherwise you'll be banned from PatsFans and sentenced to post with NEM.

Man - talk about taking the fun out of a message board. Good job!

 

[mgteich]

Constructive? I think you can't be referring to this thread. We all criticize. No one has even been banned for criticizing anyone. Personally, I have never banned anyone.

If you like the constructive criticism like "I'm arrogant and I'm right", that's fine. As you well know, we have had threads with extensive cirticisms of everyone on the team, even the sainted Brady and Belichick. And silly criticism is fine. Personally, I believe that the style and content of the poster I was addressing would fit better on NEM's board. That's just my opinion. As I have said, I would never have banned Mike (NEM).

Great. So no more criticisms - constructive or otherwise - of the team folks - otherwise you'll be banned from PatsFans and sentenced to post with NEM.

Man - talk about taking the fun out of a message board. Good job!

 

[IcyPatriot]

16-0

#1 scoring offense in NFL history


Next question

Also ... sure to get better this year ... same offense for the most part.

 

[Rob0729]

You might have just proven that McDaniels was misusing Stallworth! Congratulations.

Aside from that you'll never be able to prove that Defensive Coordinators consider Jabar Gaffney, Wes Welker, Kevin Faulk, or Kelly Washington as a deep threat.

Additionally you're counting yards after the catch. Maroney's 50 yard run after a catch doesn't mean DC's are covering him like Moss.

Sorry - that's just the way it is

Even if McDaniels misused Stallworth (a point I am far conceeding). If the worst thing an OC was misuse a #3/4 WR, he's doing a good job. Stallworth was a back up WR. You make your argument on this subject as if he misused Moss or Welker or Brady.

I disagree that he misused Stallworth. There are so many deep balls you can throw before it gets to be detrimental and word was Stallworth was struggling with the presnap adjustments which would make him useless anyway if true. But it isn't a huge deal if he did. Stallworth was on the field for about 50% of the snaps and that dwindled as the year went along and Gaffney got more of his snaps.

So if McDaniels used his correctly as you state, what would he have gotten two or three more deep balls? You are kidding yourself if you think it is significantly more than that.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Even if McDaniels misused Stallworth (a point I am far conceeding). If the worst thing an OC was misuse a #3/4 WR, he's doing a good job. Stallworth was a back up WR. You make your argument on this subject as if he misused Moss or Welker or Brady.

I disagree that he misused Stallworth. There are so many deep balls you can throw before it gets to be detrimental and word was Stallworth was struggling with the presnap adjustments which would make him useless anyway if true. But it isn't a huge deal if he did. Stallworth was on the field for about 50% of the snaps and that dwindled as the year went along and Gaffney got more of his snaps.

So if McDaniels used his correctly as you state, what would he have gotten two or three more deep balls? You are kidding yourself if you think it is significantly more than that.

Ask yourself the following questions and answer honestly.

1. With Moss consistently double teamed, would it have helped the offense to have another deep threat WR lining up on the other side of the field?

2. Was Donte Stallworth a legitimate deep threat for the Eagles and for the Saints - the two teams he played for before coming here?

If you answered yes to both of those questions (as anyone should have) then you need to ask the offensive coordinator why he didn't use a player, proven as a deep threat on other teams, as a deep WR here.

Did Stallworth suddenly lose his skills and talent? Or did McDaniels decide we didn't need another deep threat? Or couldn't McDaniels find any deep plays that Stallworth could understand when his previous OCs could?

Take your choice. But I guess we'll find out this season and see if Stallworth is really washed up or not.

The fact that you view Stallworth as a #4 WR is a symptom of him being misused as well as a misunderstanding of how WRs are "numbered" which is a whole other thread topic. (I assume you're talking in terms of numbers of catches - which would put Stallworth ahead of Gaffney and Moss behind of Welker - as opposed to looking at the guys lining up outside as a #1 and #2 WR - but I digress).

I feel VERY strongly that having a legitimate deep threat (and no Deus, Kevin Faulk is not viewed as a Deep threat by opposing DCs) would have been a tremendous HELP to Moss and the entire offense.

I don't see how anyone COULDN'T agree that would have been a huge help.

So we're left wondering whether Stallworth's proven talent elsewhere suddently evaporated here, or whether McDaniels misused him.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

the entire coaching staff had a braincramp in the superbowl

 

[mgteich]

yup, even with no additional help at all

Also ... sure to get better this year ... same offense for the most part.

 

[Rob0729]

Ask yourself the following questions and answer honestly.

1. With Moss consistently double teamed, would it have helped the offense to have another deep threat WR lining up on the other side of the field?

2. Was Donte Stallworth a legitimate deep threat for the Eagles and for the Saints - the two teams he played for before coming here?

If you answered yes to both of those questions (as anyone should have) then you need to ask the offensive coordinator why he didn't use a player, proven as a deep threat on other teams, as a deep WR here.

Did Stallworth suddenly lose his skills and talent? Or did McDaniels decide we didn't need another deep threat? Or couldn't McDaniels find any deep plays that Stallworth could understand when his previous OCs could?

Take your choice. But I guess we'll find out this season and see if Stallworth is really washed up or not.

The fact that you view Stallworth as a #4 WR is a symptom of him being misused as well as a misunderstanding of how WRs are "numbered" which is a whole other thread topic. (I assume you're talking in terms of numbers of catches - which would put Stallworth ahead of Gaffney and Moss behind of Welker - as opposed to looking at the guys lining up outside as a #1 and #2 WR - but I digress).

I feel VERY strongly that having a legitimate deep threat (and no Deus, Kevin Faulk is not viewed as a Deep threat by opposing DCs) would have been a tremendous HELP to Moss and the entire offense.

I don't see how anyone COULDN'T agree that would have been a huge help.

So we're left wondering whether Stallworth's proven talent elsewhere suddently evaporated here, or whether McDaniels misused him.

First, it looked like Stallworth struggled with the playbook and presnap adjustments. If this is the case, no matter what McDaniels did was not going to help other than dumb down the offense for a #3/4 WR. As to why he was demoted, you have no and I have no idea, but if it was because he didn't know the adjustments than McDaniels didn't misuse him.

Second, the Pats have done fine in the past with only one consistent deep threat or no deep threat at all. Never have we had a deep threat nearly as good as Moss. Moss getting double teamed means it opens things up for Welker and Gaffney in the short or intermediate routes. Why do we have to be so concerned about going vertical all the time.

Third, until you get a stat that shows all of Stallworth's dropped balls and passes thrown in his direction including the ones not on target, you don't have a solid basis to judge your theory. Say that 10 balls thrown in his direction were either off the mark or dropped and 8 of them were for over 20 yards, does your theory hold water.

Fourth, how many plays were designed to go to Stallworth deep and either Brady made an audible on the line, checked off him because he wasn't open, or just saw someone else he decided to go to someone else. All three happen all the time. None of them are McDaniels' fault.

You are basing your whole theory based on the number of catches Stallworth actually made over 20 yards, but you can't use only those to tell the whole story. Until you get more information, it is impossible to prove your theory.

As far as I am concerned, when a #3/4 WR gets 46 catches (27 for first down), 697 yards, and 3 TDs, you are doing something right. We did have one receiver have 98 catches for 1493 yards and 23 TDs and another have 112 catches for 1175 yards and 8 TDs. We had six receivers get 36 or more catches and four of them had 46 or more. I still don't see the problem with the passing offense.

 

[bigdgp]

When did Dallas Clark get the nickname "The Clock". Pretty cool nickname if you ask me. But why was it McDaniels' fault that the Pats couldn't manage him in the AFCCG?

Quite the constructive way to disagree with my perspective. D-Bag. Where was Dallas Clark in the Superbowl this past year? The fact of the matter is we were in a position to win both of these games. We had opportunities on the next to last drive in both of these games to take more time off the clock before the opposing teams' final drives and make it more difficult for them to score. In both drives there were passing plays that could have been running plays that could have forced add'l timeouts or taken more time off the clock. So instead of being an ahole why not just acknowledge my points and counter them or admit that you haven't focused on that aspect of the game in your review and that you'll have to go back and watch the end of both games to do so.

 

[Rob0729]

Quite the constructive way to disagree with my perspective. D-Bag. Where was Dallas Clark in the Superbowl this past year? The fact of the matter is we were in a position to win both of these games. We had opportunities on the next to last drive in both of these games to take more time off the clock before the opposing teams' final drives and make it more difficult for them to score. In both drives there were passing plays that could have been running plays that could have forced add'l timeouts or taken more time off the clock. So instead of being an ahole why not just acknowledge my points and counter them or admit that you haven't focused on that aspect of the game in your review and that you'll have to go back and watch the end of both games to do so.

Well, what does this year have to do with the AFCCG. You blamed McDaniels for both losses. As you said I creatively threw a monkeywrench into your theory. The Pats offense scored 27 points in that game and the defense gave up 32 points in the second half. Who was more responsible for that loss?

As for the Super Bowl, yes McDaniels called very questionable calls on the last drive, but he still did have to go 74 yards in 35 seconds to win the game or about 50 yards in 34 or less seconds. Even still, the defense had three perfect opportunities to make that last drive irrelevant and blew it. If they did, then we would have been talking about the Brady mystique with his game winning drive the drive before the Giants took the final lead.

As for the final drive in the AFCCG, I don't blame him at all. Caldwell dropped a pass he was open on (and I am not one to blame Caldwell for a loss) and Brady stared down Troy brown on the next play to get intercepted.

Hey look I was even able to counter your argument without resort to imature name calling like you did. Good for me!

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

you seriously have to ask yourself....

why didn't welker have 20 catches in the SB?

how come maroney didn't have more carries?

how come moss wasn't used on the inside slant more?

 

[Deus Irae]

You might have just proven that McDaniels was misusing Stallworth! Congratulations.

Aside from that you'll never be able to prove that Defensive Coordinators consider Jabar Gaffney, Wes Welker, Kevin Faulk, or Kelly Washington as a deep threat.

Additionally you're counting yards after the catch. Maroney's 50 yard run after a catch doesn't mean DC's are covering him like Moss.

Sorry - that's just the way it is

Sorry, but I counted both yards after catch and yardage in the air for separate data. It's available on ESPN.com. You're wrong now, and you were wrong before. No matter how many times you spew out the same faulty arguments, the numbers will continue proving you to be wrong.


P.S. Note that you were the one referring to Gaffney's YPC:

You think that Gaffney at 12.5 yards a catch is viewed as a deep threat. I do not. DC's do not. (He caught 5 passes thrown 20 yards or more compared to Stallworth's 4.)

You can't even put forth an argument without undercutting your own argument.

Also, Gaffney had fewer starts and fewer receptions yet still had more catches where the ball went more than 20 yards in the air than Stallworth.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Sorry, but I counted both yards after catch and yardage in the air for separate data. It's available on ESPN.com. You're wrong now, and you were wrong before. No matter how many times you spew out the same faulty arguments, the numbers will continue proving you to be wrong.


P.S. Note that you were the one referring to Gaffney's YPC:



You can't even put forth an argument without undercutting your own argument.

Also, Gaffney had fewer starts and fewer receptions yet still had more catches where the ball went more than 20 yards in the air than Stallworth.

OK - good to know that 12.5 yards per catch makes him a deep threat.

And I'm not asserting that 5 deep throws over a season makes him more of a deep threat than Stallworth was with 4... or Reche Caldwell with 4 for that matter.

Trust me - it would be news to a lot of Patriots fans and Defensive Coordinators to hear that you've proven that Reche Caldwell is much of a deep threat as Donte Stallworth (or Jabbar Gaffney for that matter). But indeed, you've got your facts to prove it

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

You are so wrong it brings me to the brink of aneurysm, if you were right, I'm pretty sure you'd have a job as the OC for some NFL team, even if it wasn't the Pats. Instead you're a keyboard cowboy blowhard with a self inflated ego and a grandiose sense of value that I'm pretty sure exists only in your own mind. Monday morning Quarterbacks (or in your case, OCs) are the biggest joke in fanville. Get over yourself, after reading a number of your "breakdowns" I'm unconvinced you could successfully call a JV game.

eat a dic k...

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

Occasionally, we have posters who believe that they can coach better than professional coaches who have dedicated decades to the game, and especially better than our offensive coordinators. Perhaps we can again post the url of NEM's site. I'm sure he'd be glad to have you aboard. And Weiss was disliked and criticized on this site much more than McDaniels.

As we used to tell NEM, now we tell you: Send in your resume to Bill and Scotty. I'm sure if you are knowledgable as you say and as good at analyzing game situation, that surely there is a job for you in the patriots organization, perhaps even replacing Josh at OC.

Sending my resume to Belichick is like sending my name in to run for president.

It's who you know.

You already know this as well.

DUH...

Part of my rant is sarcasm also...

please don't take me seriously ALL of the time.

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

Occasionally, we have posters who believe that they can coach better than professional coaches who have dedicated decades to the game, and especially better than our offensive coordinators. Perhaps we can again post the url of NEM's site. I'm sure he'd be glad to have you aboard. And Weiss was disliked and criticized on this site much more than McDaniels.

As we used to tell NEM, now we tell you: Send in your resume to Bill and Scotty. I'm sure if you are knowledgable as you say and as good at analyzing game situation, that surely there is a job for you in the patriots organization, perhaps even replacing Josh at OC.

So Mickey D has decades of of dedication?

I seriously doubt that assumption.

 

[JoeSixPat]

First, it looked like Stallworth struggled with the playbook and presnap adjustments. If this is the case, no matter what McDaniels did was not going to help other than dumb down the offense for a #3/4 WR. As to why he was demoted, you have no and I have no idea, but if it was because he didn't know the adjustments than McDaniels didn't misuse him.

Second, the Pats have done fine in the past with only one consistent deep threat or no deep threat at all. Never have we had a deep threat nearly as good as Moss. Moss getting double teamed means it opens things up for Welker and Gaffney in the short or intermediate routes. Why do we have to be so concerned about going vertical all the time.

Third, until you get a stat that shows all of Stallworth's dropped balls and passes thrown in his direction including the ones not on target, you don't have a solid basis to judge your theory. Say that 10 balls thrown in his direction were either off the mark or dropped and 8 of them were for over 20 yards, does your theory hold water.

Fourth, how many plays were designed to go to Stallworth deep and either Brady made an audible on the line, checked off him because he wasn't open, or just saw someone else he decided to go to someone else. All three happen all the time. None of them are McDaniels' fault.

You are basing your whole theory based on the number of catches Stallworth actually made over 20 yards, but you can't use only those to tell the whole story. Until you get more information, it is impossible to prove your theory.

As far as I am concerned, when a #3/4 WR gets 46 catches (27 for first down), 697 yards, and 3 TDs, you are doing something right. We did have one receiver have 98 catches for 1493 yards and 23 TDs and another have 112 catches for 1175 yards and 8 TDs. We had six receivers get 36 or more catches and four of them had 46 or more. I still don't see the problem with the passing offense.

I'm always intrigued when fans say "it looked like he struggled with the playbook" when they had no access to the playbook themselves. How did it look like he struggled?

I'm not saying he didn't - I just see people say that but don't have any details. Part of my point here is that I'm suggesting that Stallworth should have been used as a deep threat - i.e. run fast, run deep, catch the ball.

We're not talking a lot of complicated plays. There's timing issues sure - but overall, the fact that McDaniels somehow needed to have Stallworth running majorly complicated plays rather than taking advantage of the skills and talent he had available to him, seems to make my point for me.

Asserting that Stallworth was a #4 WR is also slightly confusing to me - are you "numbering" them based on the number of catches? Making Welker #1 and Moss #2?

But regardless my assertion is given Stallworth's abilities and talent he should not have been called upon to be running plays that he might have had difficulty with, if indeed he was. He should have been used as a simple, deep route threat down the sidelines, taking advantage of the coverage Moss was drawing and making defenses "pay" - thereby drawing coverage off of Moss in the long term.

Is that really such a crazy idea to everyone? Apparently it is - although I'm dealing with some posters here who have "proven" that Reche Caldwell was as much of a deep threat as Stallworth and Gaffney.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm always intrigued when fans say "it looked like he struggled with the playbook" when they had no access to the playbook themselves.

But regardless, how did it look like he struggled?

Part of my point here is that I'm suggesting that Stallworth should have been used as a deep threat - i.e. run fast, run deep, catch the ball.

We're not talking a lot of complicated plays. There's timing issues sure - but overall, the fact that McDaniels somehow needed to have Stallworth running majorly complicated plays rather than taking advantage of the skills and talent he had available to him, seems to make my point for me.

Asserting that Stallworth was a #4 WR is also slightly confusing to me - are you "numbering" them based on the number of catches? Making Welker #1 and Moss #2?

But regardless my assertion is given Stallworth's abilities and talent he should not have been called upon to be running plays that he might have had difficulty with, if indeed he was. He should have been used as a simple, deep route threat down the sidelines, taking advantage of the coverage Moss was drawing and making defenses "pay" - thereby drawing coverage off of Moss in the long term.

Is that really such a crazy idea to everyone? Apparently it is - although I'm dealing with some posters here who have "proven" that Reche Caldwell was as much of a deep threat as Stallworth and Gaffney.

It was stated somewhere. Could have been by Mike Reiss that Gaffney supplanted Stallworth because his familiarity with the playbook. I am not making this up. Stallworth even alluded to it himself that he was slow to pick up the playbook in camp.

I've had this argument with you before. It isn't the OC's job to dumb down the playbook with one player. The Patriots had someone on the roster who knew the playbook better and was more than capable to contribute. Sorry, it is the player's responsibility to know the playbook and if he doesn't he doesn't play.

If this is the reason why Stallworth wasn't "properly utilized" and got demoted to #4 WR, it is totally 100% his own fault he wasn't properly utilized. Moss and Welker got the same exact playbook and didn't seem to struggle with it. There are no excuses for Stallworth assuming this is the case.

Sorry, this was the best offense ever. They set the record for most passing TDs, most total TDs, points scored, TDs by a WR, came close to breaking the passing yards record, etc. And the worst complaint you can levy on McDaniels is that he didn't utilize the # 3 WR well enough? A claim you seem to not have convinced at least several of us in this thread.

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

It was stated somewhere. Could have been by Mike Reiss that Gaffney supplanted Stallworth because his familiarity with the playbook. I am not making this up. Stallworth even alluded to it himself that he was slow to pick up the playbook in camp.

I've had this argument with you before. It isn't the OC's job to dumb down the playbook with one player. The Patriots had someone on the roster who knew the playbook better and was more than capable to contribute. Sorry, it is the player's responsibility to know the playbook and if he doesn't he doesn't play.

If this is the reason why Stallworth wasn't "properly utilized" and got demoted to #4 WR, it is totally 100% his own fault he wasn't properly utilized. Moss and Welker got the same exact playbook and didn't seem to struggle with it. There are no excuses for Stallworth assuming this is the case.

Sorry, this was the best offense ever. They set the record for most passing TDs, most total TDs, points scored, TDs by a WR, came close to breaking the passing yards record, etc. And the worst complaint you can levy on McDaniels is that he didn't utilize the # 3 WR well enough? A claim you seem to not have convinced at least several of us in this thread.

It's possible...

I mean, Stallworth IS more talented than Gaffney.

It doesn't mean alot when you cannot pick it up.

But, I don't have access to the playbook either.

It does make sense though.

And I wasn't knocking Gaffney, because I happen to like him.

 

[bigdgp]

Well, what does this year have to do with the AFCCG. You blamed McDaniels for both losses. As you said I creatively threw a monkeywrench into your theory. The Pats offense scored 27 points in that game and the defense gave up 32 points in the second half. Who was more responsible for that loss?

As for the Super Bowl, yes McDaniels called very questionable calls on the last drive, but he still did have to go 74 yards in 35 seconds to win the game or about 50 yards in 34 or less seconds. Even still, the defense had three perfect opportunities to make that last drive irrelevant and blew it. If they did, then we would have been talking about the Brady mystique with his game winning drive the drive before the Giants took the final lead.

As for the final drive in the AFCCG, I don't blame him at all. Caldwell dropped a pass he was open on (and I am not one to blame Caldwell for a loss) and Brady stared down Troy brown on the next play to get intercepted.

Hey look I was even able to counter your argument without resort to imature name calling like you did. Good for me!

You don't even address my argument. I specifically refer to the Patriots NEXT-TO LAST drives in both games. Nothing I'm talking about has anything to do with the last drive of either game. My point is very specifically the defense wouldn't have been put in the postion that it was to be scored on in either game and the Patriots wouldn't have been worried about having to score to win in either game-if McDaniels had managed the clock better on offense. I believe he did this poorly in both games I referred to and that his inability to do so in these big games holds us back.