Does McDaniels hold this team back?

[Rob0729]

Yeah-it was like that '06 reg season game against the Colts at Foxboro...30 degree weather against the WORST ranked run D in all of football. Nonetheless, McDaniels calls FIFTY pass plays. Result? Brady throws 4 picks. Weis, OTOH, would have called just as many run plays/play action passes.

Pt being that do NOT underestimate assistant coaches. Belichick has been outstanding for you guys, but Weis/Crenell, especially Weis, has been very valuable to this team. Heck-I'll go one step further and say so was Eric Mangini. The secondary, if anything, played their best football when he was with your team.

I think you remember Weis wrong. Prior to 2004, Weis' biggest knock was the fact he would abandon the run.

You are definitely remembering the 2006 regular season game wrong. Brady threw 35 passes which was one less than Manning did in that game. They also ran it 33 times for 148 yards in that game. Looks to be a pretty balanced offense to me.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=261105017

This is the problem with the McDaniels' argument. People seem to misremember facts to make Weis better than he was and McDaniels worse.

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

I think you remember Weis wrong. Prior to 2004, Weis' biggest knock was the fact he would abandon the run.

You are definitely remembering the 2006 regular season game wrong. Brady threw 35 passes which was one less than Manning did in that game. They also ran it 33 times for 148 yards in that game. Looks to be a pretty balanced offense to me.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=261105017

This is the problem with the McDaniels' argument. People seem to misremember facts to make Weis better than he was and McDaniels worse.

If I remember that '06 Colts game though, McDaniels DID abondon the run at critical parts of the game. He started out running the ball successfully, then ran less and less as the game went along. Come to think of it-he called few play action passes.

As for Weis abandoning it prior to '04, remember you guys didn't have Corey Dillon yet.

Anyhow-he IS young and learning the ropes OK, and he'll likely become a very good one with experience.

Just my 2 cents

 

[JoeSixPat]

Ummm. Last time I checked, 4 is only 9 less than 13. If Brady only threw 13 balls over 20 yards (or completed) to his main deep target, how many did you really think he was going to throw to his #3 or #4 WR?

I could see if Moss had 20 deep ball catches, that it would be a huge discrepancy. But Stallworth caught nearly as third as many deep balls as Moss did. That is what any reasonable person should expect out of a #3/4 WR.

Besides, how many dropped balls did Stallworth have? How many balls did Brady throw in Stallworth's direction did not connect that were considered incomplete passes? How was it in comparisons to Moss?

I still don't see how Stallworth is underutilized based on Moss' production. But you are basing your argument not the complete data. I don't remember Moss dropping many deep balls until they purposely tried to get him the TD record late in the season. I honestly can't remember about Stallworth either way. Until you actually get the pass attempts number, you will never have the full story.

You're over thinking it.

Did defenses consider Reche Caldwell to be a deep threat with 4 passes thrown to him deep?

No.

Did defenses consider Donte Stallworth to be a deep threat with 4 passes thrown to him deep - 3 of which probably didn't come until the Baltimore game?

Not likely.

Now likely they DID defend Stallworth as a deep threat earlier in the season when they assumed he'd be utilized as he was in Philly if they devoted too much coverage to Moss.

But that never came to be and Defensive coordinators tend to watch those things called "film" and after a half dozen games I'm sure they figured out that McDaniels had one deep threat and only one deep threat.

They may have been scratching their heads wondering why but I'm sure they didn't argue with that type of a gift.

The facts show that Stallworth CAN be a deep threat but the facts also show McDaniels did not use him that way - and I contend that if we had TWO deep threats on the field that would have opened up our offense and eased coverage on Moss significantly. I'm a bit puzzled that others don't think having Stallworth used as a deep threat would have been a help - but I guess that's why I'm puzzled that McDaniels wouldn't use a weapon at his disposal either.

But again, how was Stallworth used the same as he was in the past with only 4 balls thrown deep to him?

 

[Deus Irae]

By "ignoring" it I assume you mean "acknowledge" as I stated in the post you quoted that I didn't expect Stallworth to duplicate Moss's numbers.

But yes I and a great many other fans - and a great many Defensive Coordinators - were surprised that McDaniels used Stallworth deep as much as he used Caldwell deep.

The data kills your argument because your entire argument is based upon the provably false premise that Stallworth was the only player besides Moss who was capable of getting deep. You overrate Stallworth and underrate the rest of the receivers, and then declare that the problem was the O.C.

You overlook the reality. Stallworth only started 9 games. Still, for the first time in his career, he caught more than 40 passes AND averaged over 15 ypc in the same season. You also seem to ignore the dip in Stallworth's play. In games 1-8, he averaged 15.8 ypc with a YAC of 8.4. In games 9-16, his average dipped to 14.3 and his Yac dipped to 5.5. He caught only 6 fewer passes in the second half, but had 125 fewer yards. In other words, his receptions were on longer passes in the second half of the season, but he was doing less with the ball once he got it.

Not surprisingly, Gaffney's numbers show the opposite pattern. He started off getting just 6.5 ypc in September and ended the season getting 14.7 ypc in December, as Stallworth's numbers dropped from 16.5 ypc in September to 14.9 in December.

On a New England team that values performance, Gaffney got better as the season progressed and Stallworth regressed. As a result, Gaffney took Stallworth's place as the second outside receiver. Gaffney caught 5 passes thrown more than 20 yards downfield in the air (none in September, and with a long of only 21 in October), something you keep ignoring and/or minimizing. Gaffney and Stallworth combined for 9 receptions on balls thrown 21 yards or more in the air. Moss, for all your claims of Brady only throwing deep to him, only had 13 such receptions. Of 26 completions on passes that were in the air for 21 yards or more, Moss caught only half of them. By way of contrast, Reggie Wayne caught 14 of the 25 passes of the same sort for the Colts.

We've gone over these numbers before. Your argument is wrong.

 

[b72s]

ask yourself the real question?

Who got more out of the talent they had?

Weis or McDaniel??

The difference.........

Weis attacked defenses weaknesses.
McDaniel bashes them over the head with Pats offense strengths for the good or bad of it.

 

[mgteich]

To question the adequacy of last year's offense simply demonstrates a general principle. Fans will whine even if they have the best offense in the history of the NFL (or the 2nd best in teh history of the NFL).

And yes, it is all about results in the SB. Had one circus catch not been made, we woul have won, and we would have talking about the greatest team of all team, being led by the best offense of all time.

16-0

#1 scoring offense in NFL history


Next question

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

You are a fool to think that the superbowl isn't important.

FOOLISH THINKING LAD...

FOOLISH.

Says the man who is arrogant enough to think he could do better than a paid professional who has won the trust of one of (probably THE) greatest head coach in NFL history. Strong argument on all fronts chiefie.

Superbowl, NOT playoffs.
He sucks.
I could do better.
He has the ins.
I have the outs.
That is why.

 

[Keegs]

can you guys let NEM add to this thread?

that would be fun for the kids.

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

I'm sorry. I don't buy that McDaniels is a good OC in the regular season and the playoffs, but sucks in the Super Bowl. Hey, Weis did not call a great game in either the Super Bowls vs. the Rams and Eagles, but people aren't trashing him because the defense did their job when needed.

Can I prove you wrong about everyone liking Weis????

Overrated...

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

Says the man who is arrogant enough to think he could do better than a paid professional who has won the trust of one of (probably THE) greatest head coach in NFL history. Strong argument on all fronts chiefie.

You are right "Mo..."

I am arrogant.

I am also right.

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

To question the adequacy of last year's offense simply demonstrates a general principle. Fans will whine even if they have the best offense in the history of the NFL (or the 2nd best in teh history of the NFL).

And yes, it is all about results in the SB. Had one circus catch not been made, we woul have won, and we would have talking about the greatest team of all team, being led by the best offense of all time.

you said it...

stats mean nothing when you lose the superbowl.

wgaf about any stats.

winning the superbowl is the only thing that matters.

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

Re: ask yourself the real question?

McDaniel bashes them over the head with Pats offense strengths for the good or bad of it.

he must have lost his bashing tool in the superbowl, huh?

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

You are right "Mo..."

I am arrogant.

I am also right.

You are so wrong it brings me to the brink of aneurysm, if you were right, I'm pretty sure you'd have a job as the OC for some NFL team, even if it wasn't the Pats. Instead you're a keyboard cowboy blowhard with a self inflated ego and a grandiose sense of value that I'm pretty sure exists only in your own mind. Monday morning Quarterbacks (or in your case, OCs) are the biggest joke in fanville. Get over yourself, after reading a number of your "breakdowns" I'm unconvinced you could successfully call a JV game.

 

[JoeSixPat]

The data kills your argument because your entire argument is based upon the provably false premise that Stallworth was the only player besides Moss who was capable of getting deep. You overrate Stallworth and underrate the rest of the receivers, and then declare that the problem was the O.C.

Yes. We've been over it before.

You think that Gaffney at 12.5 yards a catch is viewed as a deep threat. I do not. DC's do not. (He caught 5 passes thrown 20 yards or more compared to Stallworth's 4.)

You think that Welker at 10 yards a catch is viewed as a deep threat. I do not. DC's do not.

You think that Kevin Faulk and Lawrence Maroney are viewed as a deep threat. I do not. DC's do not.

Heck, you probably think that Kelly Washington is a deep threat. But I do not.

You can add up the entire team numbers and possibly equate them to Randy Moss. That doesn't mean that Defensive coordinators are going to cover Kevin Faulk like Randy Moss.

Sorry - that's just the way it is.

 

[ScottieC]

I'm watching the Sox, I'm bored..And I'm thinking. Am I wrong suddenly thinking McDaniels hurts this team? Last year, the guy had the best passing attack ever. But then one thing bugs me..The running game. Here we have Maroney breaking into the season at the perfect time. My concern is, why does he not use Maroney like he could? If Weis was our OC, I bet he would have turned into a receiver during the super bowl.

Maroney is a very special talent, IMO. I think besides being able to be a good runner, he'd be good at taking little screens and making big plays out of them. Why didn't McDaniels barely try this when they couldn't get a pass off? I just don't understand it, it's not like teams never rushed the Patriots before, they just adjusted using screens under Weis.

I just don't want another season pissed away. IMO, if the defense is straight heading into this season, I think this Patriot team is the favorite. I DON'T want to see them ******* lose AGAIN because our OC can't make adjustments. I think having Morris stay healthy for a full season may hopefully make this offense 100% balanced. Maybe not as "dominating" at times as last season, but better balanced.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, The Super Bowl has clouded everyones mind and MEMORY. We won 18 games in a row.

The simple answer is no. Bill Belichick and Ernie Adams are not going to let that happen.

When you have Tom Brady, Randy Moss, Wes and all the other receivers we had you're going to be a pass first team.

I agree Maroney will be huge next year, but we are going to pass A LOT next year as well.

 

[Deus Irae]

Yes. We've been over it before.

You think that Gaffney at 12.5 yards a catch is viewed as a deep threat. I do not. DC's do not. (He caught 5 passes thrown 20 yards or more compared to Stallworth's 4.)

You think that Welker at 10 yards a catch is viewed as a deep threat. I do not. DC's do not.

You think that Kevin Faulk and Lawrence Maroney are viewed as a deep threat. I do not. DC's do not.

Heck, you probably think that Kelly Washington is a deep threat. But I do not.

You can add up the entire team numbers and possibly equate them to Randy Moss. That doesn't mean that Defensive coordinators are going to cover Kevin Faulk like Randy Moss.

Sorry - that's just the way it is.

And no matter how often you try to put words into my 'mouth' or to fudge the data, you'll still be wrong. Gaffney's YPC was 14.6 and 14.7 in November and December respectively, with longs of 32 and 56. The mighty Stallworth somehow only managed 13.8 and 14.9 YPC during those same two months respectively, with longs of 33 and 42 (clue #1 on what was happening to Donte and the reason for his being replaced more in the second half of the season should have been that 2.9 yard dip in his YAC. Clue #2 should have been his not being brought back) .

In other words, your argument fails, again. Have you given any thought to actually giving your argument some thought?

 

[JoeSixPat]

And no matter how often you try to put words into my 'mouth' or to fudge the data, you'll still be wrong. Gaffney's YPC was 14.6 and 14.7 in November and December respectively, with longs of 32 and 56. The mighty Stallworth somehow only managed 13.8 and 14.9 YPC during those same two months respectively, with longs of 33 and 42 (clue #1 on what was happening to Donte and the reason for his being replaced more in the second half of the season should have been that 2.9 yard dip in his YAC. Clue #2 should have been his not being brought back) .

In other words, your argument fails, again. Have you given any thought to actually giving your argument some thought?

You might have just proven that McDaniels was misusing Stallworth! Congratulations.

Aside from that you'll never be able to prove that Defensive Coordinators consider Jabar Gaffney, Wes Welker, Kevin Faulk, or Kelly Washington as a deep threat.

Additionally you're counting yards after the catch. Maroney's 50 yard run after a catch doesn't mean DC's are covering him like Moss.

Sorry - that's just the way it is

 

[mgteich]

Occasionally, we have posters who believe that they can coach better than professional coaches who have dedicated decades to the game, and especially better than our offensive coordinators. Perhaps we can again post the url of NEM's site. I'm sure he'd be glad to have you aboard. And Weiss was disliked and criticized on this site much more than McDaniels.

As we used to tell NEM, now we tell you: Send in your resume to Bill and Scotty. I'm sure if you are knowledgable as you say and as good at analyzing game situation, that surely there is a job for you in the patriots organization, perhaps even replacing Josh at OC.

You are right "Mo..."

I am arrogant.

I am also right.

 

[Rob0729]

Can I prove you wrong about everyone liking Weis????

Overrated...

Well, at least we can agree on that. I liked Weis, but he was good not a great OC. He definitely had his flaws and they were big at times.

 

[Rob0729]

If I remember that '06 Colts game though, McDaniels DID abondon the run at critical parts of the game. He started out running the ball successfully, then ran less and less as the game went along. Come to think of it-he called few play action passes.

As for Weis abandoning it prior to '04, remember you guys didn't have Corey Dillon yet.

Anyhow-he IS young and learning the ropes OK, and he'll likely become a very good one with experience.

Just my 2 cents

I am correcting you about Brady passing 50 times and McDaniels not running the ball. I didn't think he had a perfect gameplan that game, but not nearly as bad as you suggest. But of the 10 running plays they ran in the second half, one was a fumble lost and three others were for no gain or a loss. They had three drives of two or less play (a fumble and two interceptions).

As for not having Corey Dillon prior to 2004, it was the same thing post 2004. Dillon was an elite RB for the Patriots exactly one year. After that, injuries and age set in very quickly.