Does McDaniels hold this team back?

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

Really?

31 points against Jacksonville
21 points against the Chargers with Brady injured and off his game


Last season, with a weak offense, the team put up 37, 24, and 34 points in the playoffs


Let's call it like it is. You're crying about the Super Bowl, and McDaniels doesn't play offensive line.

Superbowl, NOT playoffs.

He sucks.

I could do better.

He has the ins.

I have the outs.

That is why.

 

[Deus Irae]

SUPERBOWL LOSS...

No other questions needed.

Complete nonsense. But then you already knew that when you posted it.

 

[Rob0729]

Just for reference, Stallworth caught 9 balls for over 20 yards in 2006, 7 in 2005, 3 in 2004, 3 in 2003, and 1 in 2002. So he isn't this deep threat he is made out to be.

Remember he was McNabb's primary target in Philly and the #2 target for most of his career in New Orleans. He was the third and sometimes fourth target in New England. So getting the ball 4 times over 20 yards really doesn't support the theory that McDaniels was underutilizing him as a deep threat.

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

Complete nonsense. But then you already knew that when you posted it.

You are a fool to think that the superbowl isn't important.

FOOLISH THINKING LAD...

FOOLISH.

 

[Rob0729]

Superbowl, NOT playoffs.

He sucks.

I could do better.

He has the ins.

I have the outs.

That is why.

I'm sorry. I don't buy that McDaniels is a good OC in the regular season and the playoffs, but sucks in the Super Bowl. Hey, Weis did not call a great game in either the Super Bowls vs. the Rams and Eagles, but people aren't trashing him because the defense did their job when needed.

 

[Deus Irae]

You are a fool to think that the superbowl isn't important.

FOOLISH THINKING LAD...

FOOLISH.

I never said the Super Bowl isn't important. That's just you trying to put words in my 'mouth'. However, to argue against the O.C. based upon 1 game after an 18-1 season is pretty near to as stupid as it gets.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

14 points in Super Bowl

Plenty of questions

Really only one...unoriginal has a wonderful sticky thread that pretty rationally answers it.

 

[Rob0729]

If an OC has players with proven deep skills (Stallworth in 2006) and refuses to call a play that will stretch the field and give Randy Moss some breathing space, then I blame the OC.

If an OC isn't telling Brady that focusing solely on Moss as a deep threat is hurting the team - then again, I blame the OC for not having any control over his offense.

Of course Belichick bears responsibility there too, which is the only thing that stops me from calling for McDaniel's head - but it doesn't stop me from arguing that Stallworth could have and should have been used more as a deep threat.

Except Stallworth was used near exactly as he has in the past. So we are going to blame McDaniels for Stallworth's limitations now. The FACTS prove that he is not the deep threat you claim. Sorry McDaniels wasn't able to make Stallworth into someone he isn't.

 

[Rob0729]

Really only one...unoriginal has a wonderful sticky thread that pretty rationally answers it.

Come on! Rational thought shouldn't be used in bashing McDaniels.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Except Stallworth was used near exactly as he has in the past. So we are going to blame McDaniels for Stallworth's limitations now. The FACTS prove that he is not the deep threat you claim. Sorry McDaniels wasn't able to make Stallworth into someone he isn't.

I'm not sure what facts your speaking of. Go back and look at how he was used by the Eagles. 19 ypc - 16 passes thrown during the season that averaged 20.8 yards or more.
A legitimate and proven deep threat - which is why we signed him. Or at least that's what everyone said when he was signed.

He was used very differently by McDaniels - not that I'm expecting him to replicate that with Moss on the team - but Reche Caldwell numbers? No - that indicates to me that a proven deep threat WR was being misused.

And while I don't absolve Stallworth and Brady of all responsibility, its important for an OC to adapt to the talent at his disposal. If Stallworth weren't able to run certain plays, his days with the Eagles proved there were plenty he COULD run.

It might be worthwhile for everyone to go back and read the threads when we traded for Moss. Everyone was just about salivating about what having a deep threat on each side of the field would do in terms of opening up the offense.

Too bad McDaniels didn't read that. 4 passes thrown deeper than 20 yards or more to a guy who one season before had proced 4x more than that and averaged 19 yards per catch.

 

[richpats]

Really only one...unoriginal has a wonderful sticky thread that pretty rationally answers it.

You know, unoriginal isn't necessarily wrong on anything - the O-line was beaten consistently. But the only reason that happened is because they had to pass-protect A LOT that game.

Nickelbolt (in post 5 of that thread) mentioned the importance of a power running game, andn I completely agree with that. The power running game won us SB39 and was our key to beating the Colts in the playoffs. Now it is something we don't have/use. Pray for Sammy Morris' health next year - his presence is going to be the difference, I guarantee.

 

[bigdgp]

I believe McDaniels does hold this team back. I was at both the 2006 AFCCG and the Superbowl and felt we lost both games in a very similar fashion. We didn't manage the clock well enough at the end of the game, leaving time for the other teams to come down and score. That falls sqaurely on the OCs shoulders. In both games on our next to last drive we were passing in situations we should have been running in and taking more time off the clock. That is why you need to have a balanced offense, so when you need to manage the clock at the end of the game you have the ability to do so.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm not sure what facts your speaking of. Go back and look at how he was used by the Eagles. 19 ypc - 16 passes thrown during the season that averaged 20.8 yards or more.
A legitimate and proven deep threat - which is why we signed him. Or at least that's what everyone said when he was signed.

He was used very differently by McDaniels - not that I'm expecting him to replicate that with Moss on the team - but Reche Caldwell numbers? No - that indicates to me that a proven deep threat WR was being misused.

And while I don't absolve Stallworth and Brady of all responsibility, its important for an OC to adapt to the talent at his disposal. If Stallworth weren't able to run certain plays, his days with the Eagles proved there were plenty he COULD run.

It might be worthwhile for everyone to go back and read the threads when we traded for Moss. Everyone was just about salivating about what having a deep threat on each side of the field would do in terms of opening up the offense.

Too bad McDaniels didn't read that. 4 passes thrown deeper than 20 yards or more to a guy who one season before had proced 4x more than that and averaged 19 yards per catch.

Again, Stallworth was the Eagles' Randy Moss in 2006. If we didn't have Randy Moss, I am sure Stallworth would have gotten more passes over 20 yards. This is a simple fact you seem to want to ignore.

As for people salivating for a deep threat on both sides of the field, doesn't mean the Patriots were. The Pats saw Stallworth as a YAC guy and that is how they used them. Although they opened up the field more, they didn't want to go away from their bread and butter. That is why Welker and not Moss lead the team in receptions. The Pats more wanted to use the deep threat to open up the middle part of the field.

Sorry, but other than the time that Stallworth was the primary WR, he caught about as many deep balls as he did with the Pats on a yearly basis eventhough he was a full time starter in N'orleans with a QB who was more known for his armstrength than anything else he could do passing the ball.

 

[Rob0729]

I believe McDaniels does hold this team back. I was at both the 2006 AFCCG and the Superbowl and felt we lost both games in a very similar fashion. We didn't manage the clock well enough at the end of the game, leaving time for the other teams to come down and score. That falls sqaurely on the OCs shoulders. In both games on our next to last drive we were passing in situations we should have been running in and taking more time off the clock. That is why you need to have a balanced offense, so when you need to manage the clock at the end of the game you have the ability to do so.

When did Dallas Clark get the nickname "The Clock". Pretty cool nickname if you ask me. But why was it McDaniels' fault that the Pats couldn't manage him in the AFCCG?

 

[alvinnf]

I'm not sure what facts your speaking of. Go back and look at how he was used by the Eagles. 19 ypc - 16 passes thrown during the season that averaged 20.8 yards or more.
A legitimate and proven deep threat - which is why we signed him. Or at least that's what everyone said when he was signed.

He was used very differently by McDaniels - not that I'm expecting him to replicate that with Moss on the team - but Reche Caldwell numbers? No - that indicates to me that a proven deep threat WR was being misused.

Yeah that's it there, nothing wrong with Stallworth as a player he was just miscast last season, they probably did'nt think they were going to get moss for chump change and a fourth rounder. I'll bet if they knew they were going to get moss they certainly would have found another player with more complimentary skillsets. I would'nt be at all suprised to see Mr. Washington or Mr. Aiken filling that role as the off reciever, they are bigger and have a more physical game than stallworth.

That being said, he does fit in nicely in cleveland.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Again, Stallworth was the Eagles' Randy Moss in 2006. If we didn't have Randy Moss, I am sure Stallworth would have gotten more passes over 20 yards. This is a simple fact you seem to want to ignore.

As for people salivating for a deep threat on both sides of the field, doesn't mean the Patriots were. The Pats saw Stallworth as a YAC guy and that is how they used them. Although they opened up the field more, they didn't want to go away from their bread and butter. That is why Welker and not Moss lead the team in receptions. The Pats more wanted to use the deep threat to open up the middle part of the field.

Sorry, but other than the time that Stallworth was the primary WR, he caught about as many deep balls as he did with the Pats on a yearly basis eventhough he was a full time starter in N'orleans with a QB who was more known for his armstrength than anything else he could do passing the ball.

By "ignoring" it I assume you mean "acknowledge" as I stated in the post you quoted that I didn't expect Stallworth to duplicate Moss's numbers.

But yes I and a great many other fans - and a great many Defensive Coordinators - were surprised that McDaniels used Stallworth deep as much as he used Caldwell deep.

 

[Rob0729]

By "ignoring" it I assume you mean "acknowledge" as I stated in the post you quoted that I didn't expect Stallworth to duplicate Moss's numbers.

But yes I and a great many other fans - and a great many Defensive Coordinators - were surprised that McDaniels used Stallworth deep as much as he used Caldwell deep.

A great many? Now you are exaggerating it. I see more people on this board disagreeing with you than agreeing. Sorry, but there are so many balls that the #3 WR is going to get.

Even as the primary WR, Randy Moss only caught 13 balls thrown over 20 yards last year. So Stallworth caught 30.7% as many deep balls as Moss. That is a pretty good average for a #3 WR.

Personally, I am surprised the Pats went as deep as they did. Throwing deep too often doesn't utilize what Brady does best. Sorry, I don't agree with you and many fans and DC don't either.

 

[JoeSixPat]

A great many? Now you are exaggerating it. I see more people on this board disagreeing with you than agreeing. Sorry, but there are so many balls that the #3 WR is going to get.

Even as the primary WR, Randy Moss only caught 13 balls thrown over 20 yards last year. So Stallworth caught 30.7% as many deep balls as Moss. That is a pretty good average for a #3 WR.

Personally, I am surprised the Pats went as deep as they did. Throwing deep too often doesn't utilize what Brady does best. Sorry, I don't agree with you and many fans and DC don't either.

Yes - as I said before go back and look at the threads when Moss was signed. Look how many fans here were talking about how it would be impossible to double team Moss consistently because Stallworth would be used as a deep threat.

I'll have to go back and check but of the 4 passes that were thrown to Stallworth deep, it wouldn't surprise me if three of them came in the Baltimore game. Meaning only 1 other time in the year was Stallworth sent deep.

But please tell me how Stallworth was used exactly as he was in the past as you said.

And are you now saying that Moss's lack of use by the Raiders justifies the lack of use of Stallworth by McDaniels?

That seems like an indictment of McDaniels, not a defense.

 

[DisgruntledTunaFan]

I'm watching the Sox, I'm bored..And I'm thinking. Am I wrong suddenly thinking McDaniels hurts this team? Last year, the guy had the best passing attack ever. But then one thing bugs me..The running game. Here we have Maroney breaking into the season at the perfect time. My concern is, why does he not use Maroney like he could? If Weis was our OC, I bet he would have turned into a receiver during the super bowl.

Maroney is a very special talent, IMO. I think besides being able to be a good runner, he'd be good at taking little screens and making big plays out of them. Why didn't McDaniels barely try this when they couldn't get a pass off? I just don't understand it, it's not like teams never rushed the Patriots before, they just adjusted using screens under Weis.

I just don't want another season pissed away. IMO, if the defense is straight heading into this season, I think this Patriot team is the favorite. I DON'T want to see them ******* lose AGAIN because our OC can't make adjustments. I think having Morris stay healthy for a full season may hopefully make this offense 100% balanced. Maybe not as "dominating" at times as last season, but better balanced.

Yeah-it was like that '06 reg season game against the Colts at Foxboro...30 degree weather against the WORST ranked run D in all of football. Nonetheless, McDaniels calls FIFTY pass plays. Result? Brady throws 4 picks. Weis, OTOH, would have called just as many run plays/play action passes.

Pt being that do NOT underestimate assistant coaches. Belichick has been outstanding for you guys, but Weis/Crenell, especially Weis, has been very valuable to this team. Heck-I'll go one step further and say so was Eric Mangini. The secondary, if anything, played their best football when he was with your team.

 

[Rob0729]

Yes - as I said before go back and look at the threads when Moss was signed. Look how many fans here were talking about how it would be impossible to double team Moss consistently because Stallworth would be used as a deep threat.

I'll have to go back and check but of the 4 passes that were thrown to Stallworth deep, it wouldn't surprise me if three of them came in the Baltimore game. Meaning only 1 other time in the year was Stallworth sent deep.

But please tell me how Stallworth was used exactly as he was in the past as you said.

Ummm. Last time I checked, 4 is only 9 less than 13. If Brady only threw 13 balls over 20 yards (or completed) to his main deep target, how many did you really think he was going to throw to his #3 or #4 WR?

I could see if Moss had 20 deep ball catches, that it would be a huge discrepancy. But Stallworth caught nearly as third as many deep balls as Moss did. That is what any reasonable person should expect out of a #3/4 WR.

Besides, how many dropped balls did Stallworth have? How many balls did Brady throw in Stallworth's direction did not connect that were considered incomplete passes? How was it in comparisons to Moss?

I still don't see how Stallworth is underutilized based on Moss' production. But you are basing your argument not the complete data. I don't remember Moss dropping many deep balls until they purposely tried to get him the TD record late in the season. I honestly can't remember about Stallworth either way. Until you actually get the pass attempts number, you will never have the full story.