Does McDaniels hold this team back?

[stcjones]

I believe McDaniels does hold this team back. I was at both the 2006 AFCCG and the Superbowl and felt we lost both games in a very similar fashion. We didn't manage the clock well enough at the end of the game, leaving time for the other teams to come down and score. That falls sqaurely on the OCs shoulders. In both games on our next to last drive we were passing in situations we should have been running in and taking more time off the clock. That is why you need to have a balanced offense, so when you need to manage the clock at the end of the game you have the ability to do so.

good post......Charlie bled the clock out better than anyone......and yes, like someone posted.....we do need a power RB.......this could explain the rumors of the Pats interest in moving up for McFadden,.......Can you imagine having a one two punch of McFadden and Maroney/Morris???? Talk about being unstoppable........GO PATS!!!!

 

[stcjones]

If I remember that '06 Colts game though, McDaniels DID abondon the run at critical parts of the game. He started out running the ball successfully, then ran less and less as the game went along. Come to think of it-he called few play action passes.

As for Weis abandoning it prior to '04, remember you guys didn't have Corey Dillon yet.

Anyhow-he IS young and learning the ropes OK, and he'll likely become a very good one with experience.

Just my 2 cents

Wasn't it some ridiculous number like 4 running plays that McD called in the entire second half of the game against the Colts in 2006 afc conference game......???

 

[stcjones]

You're over thinking it.

Did defenses consider Reche Caldwell to be a deep threat with 4 passes thrown to him deep?

No.

Did defenses consider Donte Stallworth to be a deep threat with 4 passes thrown to him deep - 3 of which probably didn't come until the Baltimore game?

Not likely.

Now likely they DID defend Stallworth as a deep threat earlier in the season when they assumed he'd be utilized as he was in Philly if they devoted too much coverage to Moss.

But that never came to be and Defensive coordinators tend to watch those things called "film" and after a half dozen games I'm sure they figured out that McDaniels had one deep threat and only one deep threat.

They may have been scratching their heads wondering why but I'm sure they didn't argue with that type of a gift.

The facts show that Stallworth CAN be a deep threat but the facts also show McDaniels did not use him that way - and I contend that if we had TWO deep threats on the field that would have opened up our offense and eased coverage on Moss significantly. I'm a bit puzzled that others don't think having Stallworth used as a deep threat would have been a help - but I guess that's why I'm puzzled that McDaniels wouldn't use a weapon at his disposal either.

But again, how was Stallworth used the same as he was in the past with only 4 balls thrown deep to him?

I, for one, agree COMPLETELY on your statement here on Stallworth....McD under-utilized stallworth plain and simple..........

 

[stcjones]

Ask yourself the following questions and answer honestly.

1. With Moss consistently double teamed, would it have helped the offense to have another deep threat WR lining up on the other side of the field?

2. Was Donte Stallworth a legitimate deep threat for the Eagles and for the Saints - the two teams he played for before coming here?

If you answered yes to both of those questions (as anyone should have) then you need to ask the offensive coordinator why he didn't use a player, proven as a deep threat on other teams, as a deep WR here.

Did Stallworth suddenly lose his skills and talent? Or did McDaniels decide we didn't need another deep threat? Or couldn't McDaniels find any deep plays that Stallworth could understand when his previous OCs could?

Take your choice. But I guess we'll find out this season and see if Stallworth is really washed up or not.

The fact that you view Stallworth as a #4 WR is a symptom of him being misused as well as a misunderstanding of how WRs are "numbered" which is a whole other thread topic. (I assume you're talking in terms of numbers of catches - which would put Stallworth ahead of Gaffney and Moss behind of Welker - as opposed to looking at the guys lining up outside as a #1 and #2 WR - but I digress).

I feel VERY strongly that having a legitimate deep threat (and no Deus, Kevin Faulk is not viewed as a Deep threat by opposing DCs) would have been a tremendous HELP to Moss and the entire offense.

I don't see how anyone COULDN'T agree that would have been a huge help.

So we're left wondering whether Stallworth's proven talent elsewhere suddently evaporated here, or whether McDaniels misused him.

Joe ...once again....another great post.....It will be very interesting to see what kind of numbers Donte puts up this year.......

 

[Rob0729]

Rob.....Weis had what .....1/10th of the talent to work with at best that McD had>?????? Puhleese....this is apples and oranges.........McD was working with a Lamborghini........Weis was working with a Ford Pinto..........I am confident that Weis would have made the adjustments necessary to put the Gints D back on their heels and get the pressure off Brady.....Yes, Light....Kaczur and Mankins got prison raped out there by the Gint D........but surely McD did not make the adjustments or creative calls needed to stop the one dimensional NY attack.......that was pathetic......

So why did McDaniels get so much crap for 2006? When did Weis have as little talent as McDaniels had with Reche Caldwell as his best receiver? The 2006 Pats offense was about as or more productive than any of the Weis offenses except for the 2004 season and McDaniels had crap to work with.

The real Weis had 1/10th the talent the legend of Weis had. I wish we could get copies of this and other message boards prior to 2004 season and read all the posts about Weis giving up on the run, having far too many three and outs, being too predictable, and overrelying on the trick play to name some of the things

The talent issue is overblown. Who was Wes Welker before this year? A pretty good #3 WR who's career stats were less than what he produced this year. Jabbar Gaffney was on his third team in a year when he signed with the Patriots. Moss was on a three year skid and couldn't make the Raiders offense even mediocre. Yes, they had talent, but they hadn't had their talent remotely pushed to their limits until this year (at least not in several years). The Patriots have broken most single season passing and scoring records. There have been offenses more talented than this year's Patriots who did not put up the stats.

McDaniels still needs to grow more, but he is in his second and a half season as OC. Heck, Weis was stripped of his play calling duties with the Jets deeper in his career.

As unoriginal posted, the Pats were just outmuscled in the line of scrimmage. Logan Mankins had his worst game as a pro, probably ever. There isn't enough scheming to overcome everything. It was more the o-line's fault. As for the Giants' on dimensional defense, McDaniels threw the kitchen sink at them (as unoriginal's breakdown shows) and they were able to stop everything.

 

[Rob0729]

Wasn't it some ridiculous number like 4 running plays that McD called in the entire second half of the game against the Colts in 2006 afc conference game......???

Yeah, wasn't it just ridiculous for McDaniels allow Faulk to get injured and Dillon get exhausted that he couldn't play anymore. If McDaniels had any brians he would have run QB draws the entire second half to get the running game going since Brady was about the only healthy RB we had at that point.

Nothing like piling on a guy for something he had no control over. I guess he could have ran Maroney since he was having a stellar game (8 carries, 13 yards and fumble into the end zone that he was lucky than Mankins recovered).

Clearly you are just a McDaniels hater who will blame him for anything and everything even if it is out of his control.

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

"I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing." Socrates

you
hang
in
there
sunshine....

 

[JoeSixPat]

Joe ...once again....another great post.....It will be very interesting to see what kind of numbers Donte puts up this year.......

Thanks - and yes, I of course have to admit, it is possible that in one season Stallworth lost his skills and speed. We will find out.

I don't doubt that he might have had trouble with some plays here - he certainly wasn't being used as a deep WR and McDaniels was sending him on some cross patterns and other plays that are more complicated than a deep sideline route.

But again - that's part of my point. A deep sideline route isn't complicated in the least. Sure there's timing issues - but its not a complicated play. And its not "dumbing down" the offense to send someone on such a route. In fact its a very effective play that all teams use - but in McDaniels case I guess he just didn't want to use Stallworth like that.

I do know he was very much a signficant deep threat in Philly in 2006 and put up good numbers especially considering that he missed a few games.

In fact I think the attention he garnished from DC's wound up opening things up for Reggie Brown deep - and I credit the Eagles OC for using BOTH their deep WRs to keep defenses from devoting too much coverage to either one.

In 2006 you saw both Brown and Stallworth putting up similar numbers with Stallworth pulling in 8 throws in excess of 20 yards (in only 12 games, but for some reason Deus didn't point that out).

I was surprised that the Eagles let him go. The only explanation I had was that they felt that Brown could get the job done without Stallworth - which I felt was a mistake as Brown benefitted from having Stallworth on the team.

But again, we shall see.

If McDaniels turns out to be the only OC who couldn't or wouldn't have Stallworth run a simple deep route that he'd excelled at before, I guess that might change some opinions.

Meanwhile I think we still need an additional deep threat or Moss is going to have an increasingly difficult time with extra coverage.

Chad Jackson has a chance to fill that role - but as with the criticism of Stallworth having a difficult time with the playbook, as a relative rookie, I'd expect Jackson might have similar problems.

But again, we don't need Jackson to run complicated routes. We need him to run some simple deep sideline patterns that will cause DC's to keep a safety watching BOTH deep threats instead of just Moss. So especially in Jackson's case, I would think and hope McDaniels would keep things simple - but if he didn't do so for Stallworth and didn't think not having another deep threat was an impediment to the offense this year, I'm not sure he's going to change his mind about that next year.

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

[SIZE=-3]you[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-3]hang [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-3]in [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-3]there [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-3]sunshine....[/SIZE]

Like a crackhead begging for $5 to cover bus fare, the harder you try, the funnier it gets. You keep at it champ, one of these days, I promise a full size yellow bus is gonna show up just when you need it most.

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

Like a crackhead begging for $5 to cover bus fare, the harder you try, the funnier it gets. You keep at it champ, one of these days, I promise a full size yellow bus is gonna show up just when you need it most.

you're just boring now.

OK, you were always boring.

STFU already about your narcotics issues.

 

[patsox23]

Honestly one of the most outrageous, ******ed premises this board has seen in months - and that's saying something, given the number of freaking INSANE things you people have posted about.

Egads. For the love of GOD this is lunacy.

 

[patsox23]

MOSS WAS NOT DOUBLE-TEAMED AT ALL CONSISTENTLY IN THE SUPER BOWL.

Also, it's fair to say McDaniels had a bad game in the Super Bowl, but this idea that he "held the team back" in 2007 is ridiculous. It was the greatest offensive season the NFL has ever seen.

 

[Zeke_Mowatt]

you're just boring now.

OK, you were always boring.

STFU already about your narcotics issues.

You're right, I should probably type in large, colored letters to keep your attention. For that, I apologize, it was thoughtless and callous, and I feel like my post may have wasted at least 30 seconds of your life, that, without me, would probably have resulted in at least another "Superbowl Conspiracy" thread, or maybe just a wet burp with a hint of strained peas to it. Next post, I promise shiny bouncy balls moving over the words as you read. I'm gonna go scour old Parcells nicknames and see if I can't come up with a new screen name. Please don't feel like I'm ignoring you, I promise...

You're in my heart, you're in my soul
You'll be my breath should i grow old
You are my lover, you're my best friend
You're in my soul

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

You're right, I should probably type in large, colored letters to keep your attention. For that, I apologize, it was thoughtless and callous, and I feel like my post may have wasted at least 30 seconds of your life, that, without me, would probably have resulted in at least another "Superbowl Conspiracy" thread, or maybe just a wet burp with a hint of strained peas to it. Next post, I promise shiny bouncy balls moving over the words as you read. I'm gonna go scour old Parcells nicknames and see if I can't come up with a new screen name. Please don't feel like I'm ignoring you, I promise...

You're in my heart, you're in my soul
You'll be my breath should i grow old
You are my lover, you're my best friend
You're in my soul

cool beans... chili dog

 

[Rob0729]

Thanks - and yes, I of course have to admit, it is possible that in one season Stallworth lost his skills and speed. We will find out.

I don't doubt that he might have had trouble with some plays here - he certainly wasn't being used as a deep WR and McDaniels was sending him on some cross patterns and other plays that are more complicated than a deep sideline route.

But again - that's part of my point. A deep sideline route isn't complicated in the least. Sure there's timing issues - but its not a complicated play. And its not "dumbing down" the offense to send someone on such a route. In fact its a very effective play that all teams use - but in McDaniels case I guess he just didn't want to use Stallworth like that.

I do know he was very much a signficant deep threat in Philly in 2006 and put up good numbers especially considering that he missed a few games.

In fact I think the attention he garnished from DC's wound up opening things up for Reggie Brown deep - and I credit the Eagles OC for using BOTH their deep WRs to keep defenses from devoting too much coverage to either one.

In 2006 you saw both Brown and Stallworth putting up similar numbers with Stallworth pulling in 8 throws in excess of 20 yards (in only 12 games, but for some reason Deus didn't point that out).

I was surprised that the Eagles let him go. The only explanation I had was that they felt that Brown could get the job done without Stallworth - which I felt was a mistake as Brown benefitted from having Stallworth on the team.

But again, we shall see.

If McDaniels turns out to be the only OC who couldn't or wouldn't have Stallworth run a simple deep route that he'd excelled at before, I guess that might change some opinions.

Meanwhile I think we still need an additional deep threat or Moss is going to have an increasingly difficult time with extra coverage.

Chad Jackson has a chance to fill that role - but as with the criticism of Stallworth having a difficult time with the playbook, as a relative rookie, I'd expect Jackson might have similar problems.

But again, we don't need Jackson to run complicated routes. We need him to run some simple deep sideline patterns that will cause DC's to keep a safety watching BOTH deep threats instead of just Moss. So especially in Jackson's case, I would think and hope McDaniels would keep things simple - but if he didn't do so for Stallworth and didn't think not having another deep threat was an impediment to the offense this year, I'm not sure he's going to change his mind about that next year.

People tout how great Weis was and he ran very complicated offenses. McDaniels has done really well running complicated offenses himself and I hope to God he doesn't dumb it down for a back up WR. Part of the reason offenses like the Patriots and Colts are effective is because they keep defenses off balanced by making them have to guess what is coming at them. Dumbing down route running to have two deep threats is counter productive.

The Pats' offense has and always can be very effective without stretching the field more than a few times a game. Look at the playoff game vs. the Jags to see that.

 

[Rob0729]

MOSS WAS NOT DOUBLE-TEAMED AT ALL CONSISTENTLY IN THE SUPER BOWL.

Also, it's fair to say McDaniels had a bad game in the Super Bowl, but this idea that he "held the team back" in 2007 is ridiculous. It was the greatest offensive season the NFL has ever seen.

Actually quite the opposite on Moss. Moss and Stallworth were open quite a bit down the field in the Super Bowl. Brady just didn't have time to get the ball down the field before he was hit.

I am beginning to get swayed by the McDaniels is the root of all evil though. I was watching the Zapurda film on the History Channel the other day and I could have sworn I saw McDaniels on the grassy knoll in Dealy Plaza. Maybe the McDaniels haters are on to something. Then again, McDaniels haters would argue McDaniels couldn't have killed Kennedy because he wouldn't have been able make adjustments for delays in the first half of the motorcades travel to the plaza.

 

[JoeSixPat]

People tout how great Weis was and he ran very complicated offenses. McDaniels has done really well running complicated offenses himself and I hope to God he doesn't dumb it down for a back up WR. Part of the reason offenses like the Patriots and Colts are effective is because they keep defenses off balanced by making them have to guess what is coming at them. Dumbing down route running to have two deep threats is counter productive.

The Pats' offense has and always can be very effective without stretching the field more than a few times a game. Look at the playoff game vs. the Jags to see that.

I'm not opposed to a "complicated" offense in theory - but that doesn't mean every play needs to be complicated - nor does it mean that an OC can't consider the talent, skills and capabilities of the weapons at his disposal.

Three questions for you:

1. Do you consider having a WR run a deep sideline route "complicated"?

2. Do you think there's room in an offensive playbook to run such a play at least a few times a game?

3. Do you think it would have helped the offense to have a deep threat WR on the opposite side of Moss for defenses to contend with?

My answers to those questions are No, Yes, and Yes.

I'm not sure if McDaniels feels the same way.

I'm not asking him to "dumb down" the entire offense - just to use a simple, standard play that many teams use. In Stallworth's case we had a WR who most DC's respected as a deep threat - at least until McDaniels stopped using him as such.

Next season we're probably looking at Jackson in that role - and unfortunately he's not one who DC's respect - and its in the team's interest to try to establish him as at least a moderate deep threat. And yes, that will probably mean some "dumb" simple, deep, sideline routes.

And that's a bad thing to do, why?

That's not "dumbing down" the offense IMO. But indeed, sometimes an OC does have to make concessions, just like Weis did in simplifying the playcalling when Brady first came in for an injured Bledsoe. Was that a bad thing in 2001? Not judging by the outcome.

 

[wpdougie2180]

I agree that Stallworth was underutilized. And I don't buy that he didn't learn the playbook argument. Yeah the Patriots had the best offense ever but did that help in the Super Bowl. In 3 of the bigger games of the year who made the play big play to either put the game away or set-up the play to put the game away, Stallworth, IN the Dallas game who was sent deep Stallworth, In the Indy game Stallworth set up to the game winning TD, and in the Jacksonville game. In my opinion the offense became to predictable. It was either go to Moss deep or Welker on 3rd down. On the goal line it was always the same play either Moss jumpball or send Moss across the back of the endzone and have Welker do a quick out they even tried it in the Super Bowl a couple of times but the Giants were ready for it. The only time they used Stallworth was when it was 3rd & long and they would try a bubble WR screen to him like they did in the Super Bowl when it was 3rd & 18 and he pick it up to set up the first touchdown. But instead of going back to this in the game they throw it to Welker about 4 times who avgs. about 4 to 5 yds. on it. Now if thats not bad coaching I don't know what is? On one hand you have one guy who gets 15 yds per catch on the bubble screen and another who avgs. 5 on the bubble screen. Even if he is your leading receiver those plays should have been to Stallworth. If you don't believe me watch the games and see what the Patriots call in 3rd & long?

 

[Real World]

McDaniels is a mediocre OC at best. His play calling is awful at times. That the team puts up points is to be expected. They've got talented players. The true measure of a coaches worth is how he/she handles pressure situations. The adjustements. Needless to say I'm not his biggest fan.

 

[patsin°°]

No, look at all our offense did. Maybe his playcalling was not very good in the superbowl, but we went on what was supposed to be our strength, blocking. He stayed with the line all game hoping they would come through eventually, but they never did. I cannot blame him or say he held us back.