Curran: Brady's not quite dialed in yet

[Fencer]

Not necessarily. If he's coached to throw to Moss against a certain coverage, then it would be the WRONG decision to scan all of his other options after identifying that coverage.

I'm saying that, as a practical matter, I believe he has the discretion to do as I suggested.

Otherwise the "Who's my favorite receiver? The one who is open!" quote has very little meaning.

Also, QBs are generally coached to have a range of vision to choose from, within whatever their coaches believe their decision-making ability to be. I'm saying Brady's is a significant swatch of the field -- say at least half the field each measured by width and length.

 

[Deus Irae]

A running game would take the pressure off. Also it is not all on Brady, he is suppose to have coaches to help.

The coaches are not there to help Brady. They call the plays and Brady and the Bunch need to execute. Just read the so many posts who agree.

I'm not sure what form this 'help' was supposed to take in the Jets game....


"Tom, when Gronk gets open on this play, don't overthrow him."

"Tom, when Alge gets open on this play, don't make a poor throw."

"Tom, when Moss beats Cromartie on this one, don't throw it off target."

 

[mgteich]

It might be interesting to consider how much the coaches control with Brady compared to Manning. I believe tha Brady can always change the play and has discretion within any play called. That is a far cry from the way plays are called in Indy. The PERCEPTION is that this has only been an issue since Tom came back from injury to a new set of coaches developing the schemes, calling the plays, and making the game adjustments.

I don't know what the ultimate cause is of the problem's Brady and the offense continue to have in the second half and perhaps even in putting away teams in the first half. Is it Brady is still not 100% physically and mentally compare to 2007? is that the coaching? Personally, I think that we do NOT need to look to other players. The talent on offense is the best that Brady has every had.

Would I feel better if we had lost 28-27 with us scoring 13 in the second half. Of course not! But that is not the case. We'd have different question then. For now, the offense just isn't doing it's part.

 

[Kontradiction]

We see things differenty. i bet if you showed the clip of the one with Gronk (like we did in the other thread), most people here would never expect Brady to throw to him.

I agree Brady made bad throws (Crumpler, Gronk over Wilson, and 2nd INT), but there is a way for the coaching staff to scheme based on the opposition. One, stop running for 1 or 2 yards and putting yourself in 3rd and longs against the Jets. When they went away from running, they had their longest drive (that ended in a fumble).

I showed the clip in another thread. You make it out to be the kind of pass that Brady has not routinely made throughout his career. The fact of the matter is that Brady has made a living on those types of passes and that one would have surely went for a first down.

However, like I said before, I can't fault Brady for going to Moss 1-on-1 with Cromartie either. That's a favorable match-up. The throw (execution) just sucked a fat one.

 

[Kontradiction]

I wish Brady had someone besides Belichick who could tell him things during the game, I doubt he gets much from o'Brein.

I doubt you're right. Brady and O'Brien seem to be pretty close.

 

[Kontradiction]

A running game would take the pressure off. Also it is not all on Brady, he is suppose to have coaches to help.

The team clearly tried to get the running game going in the first half. The interior blocking sucked. The team switched to a more friendly zone blocking system in the second half... one which the offensive line is best suited to run and one that worked best against a less aggressive defense that the Jets were running. The interior blocking still sucked. As did BenJarvus Green-Ellis. We could have really used Maroney and what he brought to the table in the second Pats-Jets game last season. But I guess it was high time to get rid of that made of glass bust.

 

[PrairiePat]

It seems pretty clear that when Brady talks about 'hitting the open guy', there's more to it than just scanning the field after the snap and instantly seeing an open receiver.

Each play is designed to get a favorable coverage matchup versus a particular defense. Armed with this knowledge, he can scan the defense at the line before the snap and get an initial idea where his best likely option will be.

There's probably another read right after the snap; did they actually play the defense he expected, or did they switch out of it? In either case, these reads add up to a preferred receiver, or maybe 2. These are where TB looks first. You can see this on most pass plays - his eyes immediately go to an area of the field where he expects to throw the ball.

Then comes a decision - throw it there or not? This is often based on the matchup, and not the appearance of the receiver suddenly being 'open'. For example, I remember 2 separate passes to Welker in 2007 where TB anticipated that WW would beat his man deep, and he threw the ball before WW had even drawn even with the defender. Same thing with Moss. If TB reads one-on-one with Cromartie and he feels that Moss has a huge advantage in that matchup, he's probably going to throw the ball there even if Moss isn't technically 'open' as the pass is thrown. But if Moss is running a deep route and Cromartie is giving a 10 yard cushion, maybe TB goes on to the next guy in the progression.

And yeah, there are passes where TB has a receiver in mind, but doesn't look at him immediately, trying to look off a defender. I realize that. But most passes seem to be based heavily on the early reads and the projected best matchup. If someone on the opposite side of the field breaks open because of a defensive lapse, it's certainly possible that he might be missed in some cases. I'm guessing that's what happened a few times last week. And, frankly, Cromartie played pretty good D on Moss, unexpectedly. It happens.

 

[rojo8401]

First post (under this name !)

Brady is not executing in the second half of games and it goes back a few years now. It looks like his arm is fatigued by that point (pure speculation on my part).

Tom absolutely blew those throws but if he's being told to always throw deep to Moss if single covered then that's a fairly low percentage way to go about winning a game, both in terms of TOP and all the bad things that can happen when a ball spends that much time in the air. Even with single coverage it's a high risk / high reward play and that's on the coaches in my opinion (judging by Brady's remark).

Just my completely amateur flag football opinion. Some very good points on both sides of this. I've been lurking here for years and occasionally post under different aliases and the one thing I do know is that there are some extremely knowledgeable football fans in here (Dies, Andy, JackBauer, etc.).

It's what keeps me coming back. I just wish I had more time to post!

 

[swheeler23]

I'm not sure what form this 'help' was supposed to take in the Jets game....


"Tom, when Gronk gets open on this play, don't overthrow him."

"Tom, when Alge gets open on this play, don't make a poor throw."

"Tom, when Moss beats Cromartie on this one, don't throw it off target."

If Brady is confused on a defense or needs someone to guide him a little does he trust O'Brein enough to listen? being close or liking the guy isn't the same thing. I just think every team needs a strong OC, I don't think O'Brein is that guy.

 

[emoney_33]

It seems pretty clear that when Brady talks about 'hitting the open guy', there's more to it than just scanning the field after the snap and instantly seeing an open receiver.

Each play is designed to get a favorable coverage matchup versus a particular defense. Armed with this knowledge, he can scan the defense at the line before the snap and get an initial idea where his best likely option will be.

There's probably another read right after the snap; did they actually play the defense he expected, or did they switch out of it? In either case, these reads add up to a preferred receiver, or maybe 2. These are where TB looks first. You can see this on most pass plays - his eyes immediately go to an area of the field where he expects to throw the ball.

Then comes a decision - throw it there or not? This is often based on the matchup, and not the appearance of the receiver suddenly being 'open'. For example, I remember 2 separate passes to Welker in 2007 where TB anticipated that WW would beat his man deep, and he threw the ball before WW had even drawn even with the defender. Same thing with Moss. If TB reads one-on-one with Cromartie and he feels that Moss has a huge advantage in that matchup, he's probably going to throw the ball there even if Moss isn't technically 'open' as the pass is thrown. But if Moss is running a deep route and Cromartie is giving a 10 yard cushion, maybe TB goes on to the next guy in the progression.

And yeah, there are passes where TB has a receiver in mind, but doesn't look at him immediately, trying to look off a defender. I realize that. But most passes seem to be based heavily on the early reads and the projected best matchup. If someone on the opposite side of the field breaks open because of a defensive lapse, it's certainly possible that he might be missed in some cases. I'm guessing that's what happened a few times last week. And, frankly, Cromartie played pretty good D on Moss, unexpectedly. It happens.

You make far too much sense.

 

[Deus Irae]

If Brady is confused on a defense or needs someone to guide him a little does he trust O'Brein enough to listen?

Again, I'm not sure how this applies to the Jets game. Unless you're saying that you think Brady's problems were mechanical in nature, there's nothing O'Brien could have done about those passes.

 

[emoney_33]

The team clearly tried to get the running game going in the first half. The interior blocking sucked. The team switched to a more friendly zone blocking system in the second half... one which the offensive line is best suited to run and one that worked best against a less aggressive defense that the Jets were running. The interior blocking still sucked. As did BenJarvus Green-Ellis. We could have really used Maroney and what he brought to the table in the second Pats-Jets game last season. But I guess it was high time to get rid of that made of glass bust.

Are you saying the coaches expected BJGE to be a lot better against the Jets than he was? Or that they intentionally ran him with the expectation of failure?

 

[ausbacker]

Indeed.....

Curran: Brady's not quite dialed in yet

That should be the end of the playcalling and "adjustment" complaints, right there.

It's been established that Brady didn't execute and the adjustments didn't happen because it was discussed before the game what the Patriots would do, yet you have the gaul to call people homers or chicken little?

Sit in your little cocoon of ignored posters and self importance.

 

[emoney_33]

I'm saying that, as a practical matter, I believe he has the discretion to do as I suggested.

Otherwise the "Who's my favorite receiver? The one who is open!" quote has very little meaning.

I think some people take that quote a little bit too far. Waiting for a receiver to -be- open before you throw the ball isn't always the best strategy.

Also, QBs are generally coached to have a range of vision to choose from, within whatever their coaches believe their decision-making ability to be. I'm saying Brady's is a significant swatch of the field -- say at least half the field each measured by width and length.

And at times the coverage is read and a mismatch that they have talked about and practiced shows up, and they do not ever look to the other side of the field. It's not a black and white, video game style system where you look at the entire field and wait for the first open guy.

 

[Fencer]

It seems pretty clear that when Brady talks about 'hitting the open guy', there's more to it than just scanning the field after the snap and instantly seeing an open receiver.

Each play is designed to get a favorable coverage matchup versus a particular defense. Armed with this knowledge, he can scan the defense at the line before the snap and get an initial idea where his best likely option will be.

There's probably another read right after the snap; did they actually play the defense he expected, or did they switch out of it? In either case, these reads add up to a preferred receiver, or maybe 2. These are where TB looks first. You can see this on most pass plays - his eyes immediately go to an area of the field where he expects to throw the ball.

Then comes a decision - throw it there or not? This is often based on the matchup, and not the appearance of the receiver suddenly being 'open'. For example, I remember 2 separate passes to Welker in 2007 where TB anticipated that WW would beat his man deep, and he threw the ball before WW had even drawn even with the defender. Same thing with Moss. If TB reads one-on-one with Cromartie and he feels that Moss has a huge advantage in that matchup, he's probably going to throw the ball there even if Moss isn't technically 'open' as the pass is thrown. But if Moss is running a deep route and Cromartie is giving a 10 yard cushion, maybe TB goes on to the next guy in the progression.

And yeah, there are passes where TB has a receiver in mind, but doesn't look at him immediately, trying to look off a defender. I realize that. But most passes seem to be based heavily on the early reads and the projected best matchup. If someone on the opposite side of the field breaks open because of a defensive lapse, it's certainly possible that he might be missed in some cases. I'm guessing that's what happened a few times last week. And, frankly, Cromartie played pretty good D on Moss, unexpectedly. It happens.

Fair enough.

In that case it WAS (at least a minor) scheme problem. If Brady throws to the wrong person, and it isn't just because of a wholly unpredictable DB slip-and-fall or something, then somebody did something less than perfect.

 

[rojo8401]

Again, I'm not sure how this applies to the Jets game. Unless you're saying that you think Brady's problems were mechanical in nature, there's nothing O'Brien could have done about those passes.

I do think it's mechanical and I also believe Brady would never willingly admit it.

Is it easy to discern decreasing arm strength during the course of a game by watching tape?

I do know that by the end of a flag football game my arm is hammered and I have to overcompensate which leads to both overthrows and overall lack of accuracy. I am not comparing myself to a professional QB (I did play collegiate soccer though!) but it seems to me Brady is overcompensating late in games and we have a similar body type (I'm 2 inches shorter and much uglier).

 

[swheeler23]

I do think it's mechanical and I also believe Brady would never willingly admit it.

Is it easy to discern decreasing arm strength during the course of a game by watching tape?

I do know that by the end of a flag football game my arm is hammered and I have to overcompensate which leads to both overthrows and overall lack of accuracy. I am not comparing myself to a professional QB (I did play collegiate soccer though!) but it seems to me Brady is overcompensating late in games and we have a similar body type (I'm 2 inches shorter and much uglier).

I agree, but I think his decreasing arm strength is do to weight loss.

 

[SuperPatsFan]

I do think it's mechanical and I also believe Brady would never willingly admit it.

Is it easy to discern decreasing arm strength during the course of a game by watching tape?

I do know that by the end of a flag football game my arm is hammered and I have to overcompensate which leads to both overthrows and overall lack of accuracy. I am not comparing myself to a professional QB (I did play collegiate soccer though!) but it seems to me Brady is overcompensating late in games and we have a similar body type (I'm 2 inches shorter and much uglier).

But do you have Justin Bieber hair? It's important. :rocker:

Interesting thought vis-a-vis possible Brady arm fatigue. Poor conditioning can be a key contributor to late-game collapses.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Let's face it we'll never know until his carer is over what state brady's arm is in. But they just invested a ton of money in him so the medical reports can't be horrible. We'll see ... he's always managed so far to be a great QB. men change when they hit their 30's ... maybe Tom still hasn't quite adjusted yet.

 

[IcyPatriot]

I agree, but I think his decreasing arm strength is do to weight loss.

Brady lost weight? He looks like he has more muscle than ever.