Caldwell vs. Givens

[patriotsrule]

most ppl in here on all the posts regarding reche are either too low on him or too high

no he isnt david givens

but hes also not bethel johnson, or david terrell

he'll produce less than the former, but more than the two latter

he could be our number two
we'll prob try to get a more legitimate number 2, but we could get a guy at about reches ability and let them fight it out for playing time
guys like greg jennings or mike hass in the 3-4 rd of the draft

This post is right on the money. Very well said Patsfan55.

 

[fgssand]

What is striking is when you see the video highlights of Caldwell, is the physical similarity to Givens.

Any links??

 

[Bostonian1962]

Many of these same comments were probably uttered when Vrabel was signed - underachiever, couldn't crack the starting line up, has shown little or nothing to make anyone believe he will ever be a star...

BB and Pioli are far better than any of us at picking talent. they are not always right and have laid their share of eggs, but believing we know more than they do is plain silly.

Caldwell does represent the almighty 'value' idea- Young, fast, former high draft pick, played for a team with high level offense. The 'idea' of this signing makes good sense, the reality of it won't be known until next December....

Great response. You are right on the money. Certainly none of us can say for sure if this will turn out positively. It's like many have said, we really have to wait. But, I can see the approach. It's worked before, and I like what they are doing.

I'll say this, for all the great evaluators that are talking about David Givens like he's a Hall of Famer, he had 2 total TD passes this year. Again, I don't know if Caldwell will be anything. I do know this, he's played two 16 game seasons. How many full seasons has Givens played? ZERO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[PatsSteve1]

Sometimes I get the feeling if BB/Pioli signed Carrot Top to play WR somebody would proclaim him the next Jerry Rice - You can't look at the Patriots FA pickups and just look at the successes. Some here said Duane Starks would be the next Ty Law for the Patriots. Some said the Brady. David Terrell college career experience would make Terrell a fine WR. And there was that slug WR picked up in 2002. You can't be objective without looking at the whole picture. There's been glaring success and failure and I don't think anyone can look at Caldwell's NFl career and think he's going to be a seemeless transition from David Givens as a #2 WR. If he's the #2 then it'll be because the rest aren't very good at all.

 

[mgteich]

This is one of at least 20 additions to the team before training camp. Caldwell is #4 (Davis,Poteat,Hawkins,and Caldwell). I don't count the ERFA's like Childress because they have nowhere else to go.

I don't know if Rech will start the season as our #2. #3, #4, #5 receiver or not even make the team. No one does. That's what camp and the preseason are all about. What I do know is that we will have a team that is ready to go before the draft (without major holes), we'll add several players in the draft, and we'll sign some free agents after the draft.

Sometimes I get the feeling if BB/Pioli signed Carrot Top to play WR somebody would proclaim him the next Jerry Rice - You can't look at the Patriots FA pickups and just look at the successes. Some here said Duane Starks would be the next Ty Law for the Patriots. Some said the Brady. David Terrell college career experience would make Terrell a fine WR. And there was that slug WR picked up in 2002. You can't be objective without looking at the whole picture. There's been glaring success and failure and I don't think anyone can look at Caldwell's NFl career and think he's going to be a seemeless transition from David Givens as a #2 WR. If he's the #2 then it'll be because the rest aren't very good at all.

 

[mgcolby]

Dabruinz I will give you credit for your fact finding. I still remember him dropping 2 crucial passes last season in games I watched. I just can't remember who they were playing, one was in the back corner of the end zone and it went right through his hands. I think he is a better option then Johnson, but I will have to be sold by his play this season. Sorry hate to argue with someone I generally agree with very often but stuff happens.

I still think Moulds will be our 2 receiver by training camp.

 

[Patjew]

Look at Caldwell. He's a physical clone of Givens. Givens is listed at 6', 212 lbs, born in 1980, 5 yrs in the league. Caldwell is listed at 6', 215 lbs, born in 1979, 6 yrs in the league.

I'm 5'9", 175 lbs. Screw Deion Branch- sign me.

 

[PatsSteve1]

This is one of at least 20 additions to the team before training camp. Caldwell is #4 (Davis,Poteat,Hawkins,and Caldwell). I don't count the ERFA's like Childress because they have nowhere else to go.

I don't know if Rech will start the season as our #2. #3, #4, #5 receiver or not even make the team. No one does. That's what camp and the preseason are all about. What I do know is that we will have a team that is ready to go before the draft (without major holes), we'll add several players in the draft, and we'll sign some free agents after the draft.

* After winning the Super Bowl in 2001, I'd guess most people here thought, with the FA addditions and the draft, going into the 2002 season the Patriots would being headed for another SB shot. The Patriots didn't make the playoffs. I'm sure they'll have a team that's 'readt to go'. Every team will. There's no guarantee that because it's the NE Patriots that anyone can assume they'll be SB contendahs.

 

[smg93]

This is a funny thread. It's like arguing about whether or not the Playstation 3 is good or not. (In case some of you guys aren't into video games, the PS3 isn't out yet) I really have no opinion on Caldwell because I haven't seen him when he was with other teams and all of us have definitely not seen him in BB's system and having TB throw to him. So while a healthy debate on whether this signing is good or not is perfectly fine, I'll reserve my analysis until after I see him play a few games for us.

 

[DaBruinz]

Here we go. The guy had 28 receptions last year and was passed over by Eric Parker. Yeah, he's a real stud. And who cares where he was drafted. Ryan Leaf was drafted #2. Do you want the Patriots to pick him up as well. Caldwell is a nice #3 receiver but if you, or the Patriots, expect him to make the tough catches over the middle and on the sidelines like Givens has over the years, you are fooling yourself.

You make it sound like Eric Parker stinks or something. Eric Parker is another good young WR who happened to catch over 70% of the passes thrown his way. Parker was the other starter when Caldwell went down. Nothing wrong in getting passed by a guy like Parker and nothing wrong in not making up the space because your recovering from an ACL injury.

As for your other comments, I've seen Caldwell make some pretty nice catches. Did you get to watch him every weekend?

 

[DaBruinz]

Seeing that Caldwell missed most of the 2004 season, how many games have you seen him in where you were able to break down his route running abilities? Two? Give me a break.

Umm.. How about the entire 14 of the 16 games in 2005 and all of the ones in 2004. How about the fact that I've lived in Southern California since 2002 and was able to do this. DUH. I suggest you go wipe the egg off your face, sit back and realize that people on here aren't just in New England and can watch other players play and not miss Patriots games. Otherwise, you will continue to make a fool of yourself.

 

[DaBruinz]

Dabruinz I will give you credit for your fact finding. I still remember him dropping 2 crucial passes last season in games I watched. I just can't remember who they were playing, one was in the back corner of the end zone and it went right through his hands. I think he is a better option then Johnson, but I will have to be sold by his play this season. Sorry hate to argue with someone I generally agree with very often but stuff happens.

I still think Moulds will be our 2 receiver by training camp.

MG - If it went right through his hands, he would have been credited with a drop by StatsInc unless it was deemed uncatchable. In other words, even if he caught it, he would have been out of bounds.

Anyways, I can remember McCardell having a couple of crucial drops. I can remember Gates, Tomlinson and Parker being like Hoovers on the field. Kinda hard to get playing time when you have 4 amazing receivers ahead of you.

 

[patpatriot]

What does this really mean?

To sarge and other Naysayers of Caldwell -
How about doing some fact checking before you spew?

4) Caldwell worked very hard to improve his hands. Much like Givens did. Caldwell, over the last two seasons, has caught 46 of 71 passes thrown at him. That is a 64.8% clip. Like night and day compared to his 1st two years.

Is catching 65% of the passes thrown to you a good average? I don't know, seems low to me. Is there any way to check the league avaerage for this position?

 

[BelichickFan]

Is catching 65% of the passes thrown to you a good average? I don't know, seems low to me. Is there any way to check the league avaerage for this position?

It's pretty good. This is one place you can see the numbers :

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr.php

Branch and Givens were both 62%. So was Marvin Harrison.

 

[BelichickFan]

2004 is really interesting, Branch was at 69% but Givens was 53%. In 2004, Caldwell was 62% so he's been consistent.

 

[SoonerPatriot]

This is one of at least 20 additions to the team before training camp. Caldwell is #4 (Davis,Poteat,Hawkins,and Caldwell). I don't count the ERFA's like Childress because they have nowhere else to go.

I don't know if Rech will start the season as our #2. #3, #4, #5 receiver or not even make the team. No one does. That's what camp and the preseason are all about. What I do know is that we will have a team that is ready to go before the draft (without major holes), we'll add several players in the draft, and we'll sign some free agents after the draft.

I wouldn't call Hawkins and Poteat additions. Both were members of the team last year. We know what they have to offer, and what they don't have to offer.

And I think the OP wasn't far off on the carrot top comment. A year ago this time Andy was telling everyone what a steal BB got with Starks and accusing everyone who disagreed of treason.

 

[shirtsleeve]

To sarge and other Naysayers of Caldwell -
How about doing some fact checking before you spew?

1) Caldwell was starting for the Chargers in 2004 out of training camp before he went down. However, he was still the 3rd option behind Tomlinson and Gates when it came to recieving.

2) Caldwell spent last year getting back into shape after his torn ACL. He was the #3 receiver, but now behind McCardell, Parker, as well as Gates and Tomlinson. McCardell, Parker, Gates, and Tomlinson accounted for 82% of the Chargers receptions. McCardell and Parker were targets 188 times combined. I'd be willing to bet that Gates and Tomlinson (who had 150 receptions) probably had another 215 targets between the two of them (assumping they caught only 70% of the passes thrown to them). That accounts for 403 of the 526 passing attempts. That only leaves 123 attempts to be spread amongst the other 6 receivers.

In contrast, the Patriots top 4 receivers only caught 58% of the teams total passes. And the team used 17 different receivers during the year, 10 of whom reached double digit receptions.

3) I keep hearing that Caldwell ran bad routes. Not in the games that I watched. He ran good routes. The one game that was mentioned earlier, no one has yet to be able to say whether it was Caldwell's fault or Brees' fault for the interception.

4) Caldwell worked very hard to improve his hands. Much like Givens did. Caldwell, over the last two seasons, has caught 46 of 71 passes thrown at him. That is a 64.8% clip. Like night and day compared to his 1st two years.

5) This idea that having 2 fumbles in one game means that Caldwell has fumblitis is ridiculous. It happens.

I expect Caldwell to challenge for the #2 position, but most likely, be the #3 receiver. He should get more passes than in San Diego just by nature of the Pats offense. I think that if he works as hard as he did to improve his game between 2003 and 2004, then he will be a good pick-up and I see no reason why that wouldn't happen.

Thanks for the breakdown. Good to know. :singing:

 

[Flying Fungi]

This Reche Caldwell signing is why I love the Patriots, and why the brass just really knows what they are doing.

Look at Caldwell. He's a physical clone of Givens. Givens is listed at 6', 212 lbs, born in 1980, 5 yrs in the league. Caldwell is listed at 6', 215 lbs, born in 1979, 6 yrs in the league.

Givens has more catches to date, but can't you see him coming here, and w/ Brady throwing to him, mirroring Givens type of production? I can. Yet, Givens cost the Titans almost $5M a year. Don't know for sure, but I bet Caldwell cost about a fifth of that.

He was the 48th overall pick in the draft when he came out, and is faster than Givens.

In any event, this team is slick. They look for the gems, sign them at far more reasonable prices, and then win Super Bowls. Who else thinks their approach is brilliant? I LOVE it!!!!

i shall enjoin with my knowledgeable brethren

bless givens

onward caldwell--when gates was on the bench for suspension (5 or 6 games) you stepped it up with clutch slot receptions and some under routes...

how shall you ever blossom under the powerful shadow of your predecessor...?

(cue beating of breasts and weeping and wailing...)

 

[dhamz]

Caldwell may turn out to be a bad fit like Terrell or Hayes before him.

Or he may be a guy who can play well in out system like David Patten who Pats number are 165 catches, 2513 yards, 16 tds in 54 games are much better than his numbers in the 67 career games he has played for other NFL teams: 93 catches, 1223 yards, 4 tds.

He really looked like he was coming into his own in the first 4 or 5 games of 2004 before the knee injury. We always hear it takes 2 seasons to come back fully from them so maybe he can get back to playing at that level.

 

[harveyw]

Get what fool? I will bet you a grand that caldwell is miserable this year. Put your month where your kool-aid drinking mouth is.