Caldwell vs. Givens

[Water Boy]

Sometimes I get the feeling if BB/Pioli signed Carrot Top to play WR somebody would proclaim him the next Jerry Rice -

Rumor has it that BB/Pioli are negotiating w/ Carrot Top as we speak.

 

[stcjones]

Maybe you are trying to see the bright side here....

This Reche Caldwell signing is why I love the Patriots, and why the brass just really knows what they are doing.

Look at Caldwell. He's a physical clone of Givens. Givens is listed at 6', 212 lbs, born in 1980, 5 yrs in the league. Caldwell is listed at 6', 215 lbs, born in 1979, 6 yrs in the league.

Givens has more catches to date, but can't you see him coming here, and w/ Brady throwing to him, mirroring Givens type of production? I can. Yet, Givens cost the Titans almost $5M a year. Don't know for sure, but I bet Caldwell cost about a fifth of that.

He was the 48th overall pick in the draft when he came out, and is faster than Givens.

In any event, this team is slick. They look for the gems, sign them at far more reasonable prices, and then win Super Bowls. Who else thinks their approach is brilliant? I LOVE it!!!!

but I don't really see it. Caldwell has not done much at all in his NFL career and like one guy said doesn't seem to have that toughness that Givens had. Personally, I really liked Givens and would have liked to see him re-signed. Barring a few drops last year, this guy was clutch and made the tough catch when he had to.........how many of those did he make for us in pivotal games to keep our playoff hopes going etc......the guy is a great receiver and I think we may be making a mistake in getting rid of him.....

I get what you are saying about the difference in cost factor.....but I would rather have a guy like givens by a longshot....compared to Caldwell...one man's opinion....

 

[stcjones]

I agree with you here......

Here we go. The guy had 28 receptions last year and was passed over by Eric Parker. Yeah, he's a real stud. And who cares where he was drafted. Ryan Leaf was drafted #2. Do you want the Patriots to pick him up as well. Caldwell is a nice #3 receiver but if you, or the Patriots, expect him to make the tough catches over the middle and on the sidelines like Givens has over the years, you are fooling yourself.

I don't see many guys going over the middle and making those tough bone crunching catches........Givens was a very special receiver........made so many great clutch catches.......Caldwell will be fine I am sure....but is NOT a exact replacement for Givens....I would have rather seen A. Davis re-signed to be honest...one man's opinion....

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Call me crazy ... but I think we should try to re-sign Caldwell next year. After 11 games, he's had 38 catches for 462 yards and 3 touchdowns. His longest catch so far is 54 yards Compare that to Givens who had a career year last year (we threw a lot because we couldn't run the ball) -- he had 59 catches for 738 yards for 2 TD in 16 games. His longest catch was for 40 yards.

At this rate, Caldwell should have relatively comparable #'s to Givens career high year. I may be mistaken but I don't believe Caldwell got a significant signing bonus at all and he was signed for 2 years. With all the $$$$$ being thrown at FA with the new salary cap, I think we should re-sign him. He's a decent #2.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

Call me crazy ... but I think we should try to re-sign Caldwell next year. After 11 games, he's had 38 catches for 462 yards and 3 touchdowns. His longest catch so far is 54 yards Compare that to Givens who had a career year last year (we threw a lot because we couldn't run the ball) -- he had 59 catches for 738 yards for 2 TD in 16 games. His longest catch was for 40 yards.

At this rate, Caldwell should have relatively comparable #'s to Givens career high year. I may be mistaken but I don't believe Caldwell got a significant signing bonus at all and he was signed for 2 years. With all the $$$$$ being thrown at FA with the new salary cap, I think we should re-sign him. He's a decent #2.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Jabar Gaffney is no bum either. He put out just as much production in college as Caldwell did while playing on the same team. He too could turn into a great 3rd option or whatever option they would use him as.

 

[njpatsfan]

Thanks for digging this thread up. Bostonian was right on in his assessment back in March. It is obvious that he is a physical clone of Givens, except faster and much more capable YAC. All those negative posts look pretty ignorant now.

In addition to having the most yards by far of any of our WR, it also seems to me that he has more 3rd down completions than Troy Brown.

This guy is a keeper - lets get him signed.

R

 

[Seymour93]

This Reche Caldwell signing is why I love the Patriots, and why the brass just really knows what they are doing.

Look at Caldwell. He's a physical clone of Givens.

Let's hope he's not a mental clone or else we may be looking for another WR come free agency.

 

[shmessy]

Get what fool? I will bet you a grand that caldwell is miserable this year. Put your month where your kool-aid drinking mouth is.

HarveyW!!!!!!!! Whoever you are, I love you!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's another HarveyW classic from 3/18/2006:
___
"Caldwell sucks and will never be as productive as Givens. Would have been better off keeping Andre Davis. And to that chooch Pats1 put up a brand that your boy Caldwell will out produce Givens' stats. He is a perenial loser who's career stats don't even amount to a full he season. He is the epitome of a bust."
____

Or, from 3/17/2006:
_____

"Caldwell is miserable. His career numbers would be decent for a single season. The only Florida receiver I wanted to see on the Pats was Chad Jackson."
____

Or:
____

"I am now 100% soild on Chad Jackson. Between his performances in the showcase and the combine, I would not mind him as a replacement for Givens. He would step in and be our biggest receiver and also has elite speed. He posted a better time at the combine than Sinorice Moss (4.32 versus 4.34). He showed that he has great hands in the showcase when he nearly laped the other wideouts catching balls from the JUG machines. I know we have some glaring needs on the defensive side of the ball (CB/S) which should be addressed first; but, it maybe be a mistake to pass on this at #21."
____

Yup, the guy who calls other posters here "fools" felt we should have foregone Maroney and taken Caldwell at #21.

Hey folks, I've been wrong many times too, but this guy was going McEnroe on others for their opinions regarding Caldwell, so it's just classic stuff.

 

[Hok]

Call me crazy ... but I think we should try to re-sign Caldwell next year.

Already done.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Givens is a solid number 2.

Caldwell can not even be considered a mid tier player. He is a lower tier player!

I must say Caldwell has improved from where he was at the beginning of the season. The beginning of the season was pitiful. The Denver game they scould do anything through three quarters.

He's producing for low money. Maybe thi is how good he'll ever be, but the investment was very reasonable. What else were the Pats gonna do?

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

Caldwell is closer to Bethal than Givens.

Are you serious??? Please..

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Already done.

yeah perhaps you misunderstood me -- but I know that he is "signed for next year" (he signed a 2 year contract) but it's my opinion that we should re-sign him to an extension next year (like a 3 or 4 year contract).

 

[JoeSixPat]

This Reche Caldwell signing is why I love the Patriots, and why the brass just really knows what they are doing.

Look at Caldwell. He's a physical clone of Givens. Givens is listed at 6', 212 lbs, born in 1980, 5 yrs in the league. Caldwell is listed at 6', 215 lbs, born in 1979, 6 yrs in the league.

Givens has more catches to date, but can't you see him coming here, and w/ Brady throwing to him, mirroring Givens type of production? I can. Yet, Givens cost the Titans almost $5M a year. Don't know for sure, but I bet Caldwell cost about a fifth of that.

He was the 48th overall pick in the draft when he came out, and is faster than Givens.

In any event, this team is slick. They look for the gems, sign them at far more reasonable prices, and then win Super Bowls. Who else thinks their approach is brilliant? I LOVE it!!!!

You make it sound as if the WR corps we have on the field right now was part of a master plan!

First of all Caldwell deserves a pat on the back, even with his early season drops, looking over his shoulder, missed route running miscues. He's been getting better and is our defacto #1 WR - NOT what the front office had planned for him by a longshot, but I'm glad we have him.

For that reason its difficult to compare Caldwell and Givens statistically. If we had a season where Givens was the defacto #1 and he was getting all the balls thrown to him that Caldwell is, that might be a different matter.

Beyond that, the team went into this season without adequately addressing WR even BEFORE the Deion Branch episode - indeed, having Branch hold out and be traded was NOT part of the pre-season plan.

Everyone understands this so let's not kid ourselves that this season is going as planned in the least. Leave it to the Patriots to make a silk purse from a sow's ear, covering up their weaknesses and making the most with what little they have, but WR is NOT a position of strength right now.

If it were, Watson would be open more often, and to a higher degree, picking up more yards after the catch. I'm glad Caldwell and Watson are stretching the field as much as they are - I'd call it adequate at best though - and an improved WR game would have a positive impact for TEs and RBs in the passing game, and would also open up the running game more.

So let's give the team and the front office some credit - but let's not insult ourselves by thinking this is all part of a master plan when everyone knows its not.

 

[kptmorgan04]

You make it sound as if the WR corps we have on the field right now was part of a master plan!

First of all Caldwell deserves a pat on the back, even with his early season drops, looking over his shoulder, missed route running miscues. He's been getting better and is our defacto #1 WR - NOT what the front office had planned for him by a longshot, but I'm glad we have him.

For that reason its difficult to compare Caldwell and Givens statistically. If we had a season where Givens was the defacto #1 and he was getting all the balls thrown to him that Caldwell is, that might be a different matter.

Beyond that, the team went into this season without adequately addressing WR even BEFORE the Deion Branch episode - indeed, having Branch hold out and be traded was NOT part of the pre-season plan.

Everyone understands this so let's not kid ourselves that this season is going as planned in the least. Leave it to the Patriots to make a silk purse from a sow's ear, covering up their weaknesses and making the most with what little they have, but WR is NOT a position of strength right now.

If it were, Watson would be open more often, and to a higher degree, picking up more yards after the catch. I'm glad Caldwell and Watson are stretching the field as much as they are - I'd call it adequate at best though - and an improved WR game would have a positive impact for TEs and RBs in the passing game, and would also open up the running game more.

So let's give the team and the front office some credit - but let's not insult ourselves by thinking this is all part of a master plan when everyone knows its not.

you know that this was first written in march before the season and the twig incident right???

Caldwell and Givens arent the same physically, but Caldwell does have some speed that Givens doesnt and is working out better than I think any of us would have hoped.

 

[Hok]

yeah perhaps you misunderstood me -- but I know that he is "signed for next year" (he signed a 2 year contract) but it's my opinion that we should re-sign him to an extension next year (like a 3 or 4 year contract).

Ah, I see.

Yeah, I've been pleasantly surprised by Caldwell. I wouldn't be opposed to locking him up for a few more years after next.

 

[BelichickFan]

Beyond that, the team went into this season without adequately addressing WR even BEFORE the Deion Branch episode

Sure it was addressed adequately.

Last year our top three WR were : Branch, Givens, Andre Davis.
This year they should have been : Branch, Caldwell, Chad Jackson.

I know I didn't get a lot of agreement when I compared Givens to Caldwell on another thread but I don't care. Caldwell hasn't even been with Brady a single year yet and is starting to look like by the end of the year he will be just as productive. He doesn't catch a lot of passes but, like Givens, he seems to be the one catching the ball when it's needed.

I realize Jackson has been slow in developing. But Caldwell and a high #2 pick compared to Givens and a non entity is perfectly appropriate. It's a shame that Jackson hasn't quite gotten "it". But we're also running more this year and still throwing almost as well as last year even without Branch. Check the numbers. In fact we were the first team all year to pass for 300 yards on the Bears.

The fact that Caldwell costs about 10% of Givens and that we'll get a comp pick are bonuses that make the overall value insanely good. But just what's on the field, I really think Caldwell is starting to be as productive as Givens would be. Remember, when Branch was out and Givens played well we had Watson out for the season and Dillon but not Dillon and Maroney. It's a different offense now, 2004 cannot be compared to 2006.

 

[BradyManny]

I realize Jackson has been slow in developing. But Caldwell and a high #2 pick compared to Givens and a non entity is perfectly appropriate. It's a shame that Jackson hasn't quite gotten "it".

I know what you are trying to say, but by no means do I think it's accurate to say Jackson hasn't gotten it or is developing slowly. Take any of the great receivers of today, and the vast majority of them did nothing in their rookie season. Heck, Santana Moss had 433 yards through two seasons.

I'd say we've seen enough flashes from Jackson to know he has promise. His number hasn't been called much, but when it is, he gets open downfield. He is showing nerves and has misplayed a couple passes, but once he gets consistent playing time and consistent looks his way, I think we'll see him start to contribute.

 

[JoeSixPat]

you know that this was first written in march before the season and the twig incident right???

Caldwell and Givens arent the same physically, but Caldwell does have some speed that Givens doesnt and is working out better than I think any of us would have hoped.

I did not know that - thanks -

I'd still give Givens points in the all important route running, and good hands departments but agree Caldwell is certainly working out better than I thought he would.

 

[BelichickFan]

I'd still give Givens points in the all important route running, and good hands departments but agree Caldwell is certainly working out better than I thought he would.

Givens routes weren't exactly his strong suit. He and Watson were usually the intended receivers when Brady threw one way and the receiver went another.

From Football Outsiders :

2004, Givens' Catch% (% of balls caught that were thrown to him, non catch includes bad throw) was 53%.
2005, Givens' Catch% was 61%.
2006, Caldwell's Catch% is 60%.

Caldwell is also more productive per catch, 10.7% above league average vs. Givens' 5.5% last year (Football Outsiders DVOA number).

Really the only argument for Givens is that he got open more (which I don't believe to be true) and that he's done it in the playoffs.

 

[patsox23]

Listen, Belioli isn't infallible but I think most of us will agree that they deserve the benefit of the doubt. Despite numerous examples of BB & Pioli being savvy in the draft and FA, many posters here (particularly newbies) act like simpletons, basing their arguments on what they've learned from Madden and fantasy football. So, to honor the knee-jerks who sully this site with baseless, vision-less posts, I present a selection of Caldwell-isms:

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Givens is a solid number 2. Caldwell can not even be considered a mid tier player. He is a lower tier player!

Better than Givens? I doubt that. I think some folks here are a TAD to optimistic.

I don't know what you see save for measureables. Caldwell is awful and has been a bust. He will be a role player at best.

Caldwell is closer to Bethal than Givens.

The guy had 28 receptions last year and was passed over by Eric Parker. Yeah, he's a real stud... Caldwell is a nice #3 receiver but if you, or the Patriots, expect him to make the tough catches over the middle and on the sidelines like Givens has over the years, you are fooling yourself.

I will bet you a grand that caldwell is miserable this year. Put your month {sic} where your kool-aid drinking mouth is.