Brady on WEEI after loss at KC

[upstater1]

We've been seeing glimpses of "old Brady" for several years now. First, it was the inability to move the offense against good competition and strong pass rushes in the playoffs. Then, last year, a noticeable overall decline.

Who's kidding who? The Pats offense stunk for most of last year, masked a bit by the occasional miracle comeback after falling behind in games. It was not pretty. Even on their best days, the offense was sputtering and inconsistent. But, by the end of the year, the passing game had disintegrated completely, with Blount running and running and running being the only effective offense the Pats could turn to in the playoff run. When Denver took away the run, the Pats had nothing.

What we are seeing this year is just a continuation/acceleration of exactly the same problems, perhaps compounded by the failure of the veteran leadership on the offense to get the most out of the young players.

Unable to move the offense to the playoffs. Except for when he got to the Super Bowl?

Come on. He's unable to move when his main and only weapon last year tore his ACL. He had Edelman. Dobson was hurt (not that it mattered) and so was Amendola.

Stop this nonsense.

Against that same Broncos defense that stoned him, how did Brady do the year before in the playoffs?

 

[hwc]

Come on. He's unable to move when his main and only weapon last year tore his ACL. He had Edelman. Dobson was hurt (not that it mattered) and so was Amendola.

Yeah, I chalked it up to injuries last year, too. That team was held together with duct tape and bailing wire.

I was sure the offense would be much improved this year with all of the receivers back, plus a proven 40 - 50 catch guy in LaFell, plus all of them getting "in sync with Brady" with a whole training camp. I'm not really seeing the improvement. The offense has been putrid in all four games.

We'll see if they can get it in gear.

 

[Rory Gallagher]

Hey, no one is rooting for Brady to turn it around more than I am, and I'll ignore the vitriol from the Brady Denial group. Going on 40 years now of watching the Pats and watching/playing/coaching football (Yes, I watched Hannah, Grogan, Nelson, Tony Collins! *(ugh) and have only missed one Pats game in that span). If I could wave a wand and make one of our camps eat crow, it'd be me and others who have had the gall to point out that Brady has declined, and have presented the data and sources to back up our points. No one wants TB to go out and put up a 28/32 400 4 TD night against the Bengals Sunday night more than I do.

There's not one metric that supports the belief that Brady hasn't declined. Not one. And if you look at the posts from those of us who have fought it for a while but now have given in to the belief that he's declined, you won't see any joy in the posts. Just facts, data, and a resigned belief that, yes, it's acceptable, and common, for a great athlete to decline at his age.

As far as being an expert on aging, I never claimed to be, but I was a pretty good athlete (not on Tom's level, of course), and i went through those years that Tom is going through now, and if you haven't been through them yourself, well, all I can tell you is that it goes and it goes fast. There's only so much you can do to fight Father Time, and ultimately he wins. Every time.

One last point. The whole internet "newbie" thing has always cracked me up. You do realize that the vast majority of people who come to this site only have time to read the stories at the top, glance at the threads for anything of interest, and don't have the time or the inclination to post anything. No disrespect to anyone who has 1,000 posts or more, but where do you find the time?? haha. Number of posts has ZERO to do with allegience to the Pats or football knowledge or experience, as you know. I would hope. There are probably thousands of people with few or even no posts who have forgotten more about football, and the Pats, than most posters on here know.

Back to work. Again, hoping I'm wrong about Tom, he's my 3rd favorite Boston athlete of all time, and I'll always appreciate what he's done. Just being rational here.

 

[upstater1]

Hey, no one is rooting for Brady to turn it around more than I am, and I'll ignore the vitriol from the Brady Denial group. Going on 40 years now of watching the Pats and watching/playing/coaching football (Yes, I watched Hannah, Grogan, Nelson, Tony Collins! *(ugh) and have only missed one Pats game in that span). If I could wave a wand and make one of our camps eat crow, it'd be me and others who have had the gall to point out that Brady has declined, and have presented the data and sources to back up our points. No one wants TB to go out and put up a 28/32 400 4 TD night against the Bengals Sunday night more than I do.

There's not one metric that supports the belief that Brady hasn't declined. Not one. And if you look at the posts from those of us who have fought it for a while but now have given in to the belief that he's declined, you won't see any joy in the posts. Just facts, data, and a resigned belief that, yes, it's acceptable, and common, for a great athlete to decline at his age.

As far as being an expert on aging, I never claimed to be, but I was a pretty good athlete (not on Tom's level, of course), and i went through those years that Tom is going through now, and if you haven't been through them yourself, well, all I can tell you is that it goes and it goes fast. There's only so much you can do to fight Father Time, and ultimately he wins. Every time.

One last point. The whole internet "newbie" thing has always cracked me up. You do realize that the vast majority of people who come to this site only have time to read the stories at the top, glance at the threads for anything of interest, and don't have the time or the inclination to post anything. No disrespect to anyone who has 1,000 posts or more, but where do you find the time?? haha. Number of posts has ZERO to do with allegience to the Pats or football knowledge or experience, as you know. I would hope. There are probably thousands of people with few or even no posts who have forgotten more about football, and the Pats, than most posters on here know.

Back to work. Again, hoping I'm wrong about Tom, he's my 3rd favorite Boston athlete of all time, and I'll always appreciate what he's done. Just being rational here.

As I said, 6 months. You have to reply to that.

Do you think he lost it in 6 months? (January 2013 to August 2013).

 

[IllegalContact]

What's worse .... Brady losing confidence in his teammates or the teammates losing confidence in Brady?

 

[NJPatsfan26]

What's worse .... Brady losing confidence in his teammates or the teammates losing confidence in Brady?

teammates loosing confidence in him.

they loose it, we are done.

 

[dales804]

What's worse .... Brady losing confidence in his teammates or the teammates losing confidence in Brady?

The latter. If they don't trust him then might as well put JAG in.

 

[Rory Gallagher]

As I said, 6 months. You have to reply to that.

Do you think he lost it in 6 months? (January 2013 to August 2013).

Yes, I think it can, and does, happen. Had the intern put this together (it's actually kind of job related, if you really rationalize it... ha) Don't know how to insert charts on here, and I apologize for the formatting, but you'll get the gist.. All of these guys are potentially in the GOAT discussion, and all of them fell off a cliff right around Brady's age. You can asterisk Young due to concussions, but again, who knows what Tom is dealing with? I think the toll of injuries/hits/negative experiences is in play here. I think the Montana/Marino comparisons are more apt to Tom, as at that point they were both pocket passers with little agility.

Again, this is not an attack on Brady, I love the guy. But it's shocking to see how all of these greats were done, and SUDDENLY done, right around Brady's current age. I knew it before we put this together, but it was still eye opening to me. In every case, the season prior to the collapse, their fans were probably thinking "Hey, this guy's still elite". That's been my whole argument. Tom isn't elite anymore, and there's NOTHING wrong with that. The data backs it up, and we've thrown it all out there, and our eyes back it up. His hot streak at the end of last year was great, I was loving it. But he was decidedly mediocre before that, and that's what guys at his age do. I just don't get why this "debate" is so personal, to each his own I guess.

QB Age Comp % Yards TD INT QB Rating
Favre
40 68.4 4202 33 7 107.2
41 60.6 2509 11 19 69.9

Montana
34 61.7 3944 26 16 89
35 0 0 0 0 0
36 71.4 126 2 0 118.4
37 60.7 2144 13 7 87.4
38 60.6 3283 16 9 83.6

Young
37 62.3 4170 36 12 101.1
38 53.6 446 3 4 60.9

Marino
37 57.7 3497 23 15 80
38 55.3 2448 12 17 67.4

 

[borg]

I'm sure there are conversations under the radar at Gillette questioning why, year after year, the vast majority of FA/UDFA/drafted WRs fail in the NE system. And these conversations are between smart analytical men who will look at the common denominators. The personnel people for the Pats no doubt believe every WR brought in has the talent/aptitude to succeed...and last time I looked, no one has been getting fired for these consistent failures. No doubt the goal is to find WRs that can work with Brady....yet this is becoming increasing difficult to accomplish. At some point, the eyes may focus less on the pass catchers and more on the passer and OC. It's inevitable. Bledsoe and his $100 million contract were judged....no reason to believe Brady/McDaniels are immune to equal scrutiny.
My personal belief is:
1) the offense is stale....too many years of running the same system...ie...predictable
2) Brady has severe limitations...ie...down field accuracy, limited mobility
3) Brady's strengths......short pass offense.....is too limiting in today's NFL. Too many passes must be strung together to score
And even if the O line corrects their issues, the reality still exists that NE is geared to be a short pass offense. Good enough vs most teams......but insufficient vs the best teams. Recent history confirms this.
Tough decisions may be on the horizon ..aka...the off season.....OC first??? QB next?? It won't be dull....unless they hoist their 4th Lombardi. The NFL is 24...7...365

 

[IllegalContact]

teammates loosing confidence in him.

they loose it, we are done.

The reason I bring this up is that even though they are young, the newer players have played plenty of their own football at a high level, they get paid their own salaries, and as long as things were going well enough, all is good.....if things are rough, then young players think....then speak....who on the offense is in a spot to unify? Who may actually think that their existence might be better off with a change at QB?

We've heard so little from the players.....maybe this is one of those instances where the no talking is killing the team

Reality is coming Sunday night.....a repeat performance and either you will see changes or there will be many more Dobsons

 

[borg]

The reason I bring this up is that even though they are young, the newer players have played plenty of their own football at a high level, they get paid their own salaries, and as long as things were going well enough, all is good.....if things are rough, then young players think....then speak....who on the offense is in a spot to unify? Who may actually think that their existence might be better off with a change at QB?

We've heard so little from the players.....maybe this is one of those instances where the no talking is killing the team

Reality is coming Sunday night.....a repeat performance and either you will see changes or there will be many more Dobsons

I imagine there is plenty of crap flowing through all the WRs minds. Will I dress? Will Brady even throw me a pass if I dress? Will Brady rely on his binkies? Will Tyms replace me? Why is Vince eating my lunch? Lots of reasons to be insecure and scared beyond the usual crap the pro-athlete has to deal with. Failure breeds contempt unfortunately.....they are human....But BB is not

 

[upstater1]

Yes, I think it can, and does, happen. Had the intern put this together (it's actually kind of job related, if you really rationalize it... ha) Don't know how to insert charts on here, and I apologize for the formatting, but you'll get the gist.. All of these guys are potentially in the GOAT discussion, and all of them fell off a cliff right around Brady's age. You can asterisk Young due to concussions, but again, who knows what Tom is dealing with? I think the toll of injuries/hits/negative experiences is in play here. I think the Montana/Marino comparisons are more apt to Tom, as at that point they were both pocket passers with little agility.

Again, this is not an attack on Brady, I love the guy. But it's shocking to see how all of these greats were done, and SUDDENLY done, right around Brady's current age. I knew it before we put this together, but it was still eye opening to me. In every case, the season prior to the collapse, their fans were probably thinking "Hey, this guy's still elite". That's been my whole argument. Tom isn't elite anymore, and there's NOTHING wrong with that. The data backs it up, and we've thrown it all out there, and our eyes back it up. His hot streak at the end of last year was great, I was loving it. But he was decidedly mediocre before that, and that's what guys at his age do. I just don't get why this "debate" is so personal, to each his own I guess.

QB Age Comp % Yards TD INT QB Rating
Favre
40 68.4 4202 33 7 107.2
41 60.6 2509 11 19 69.9

Montana
34 61.7 3944 26 16 89
35 0 0 0 0 0
36 71.4 126 2 0 118.4
37 60.7 2144 13 7 87.4
38 60.6 3283 16 9 83.6

Young
37 62.3 4170 36 12 101.1
38 53.6 446 3 4 60.9

Marino
37 57.7 3497 23 15 80
38 55.3 2448 12 17 67.4

Favre was 41.
Montana moved to a totally different team.
Young had concussions the next season. Then retired.
Marino is the only one that might be of relevance, but Marino's 35 years of age (what Brady was) compared to his 36 was not a whole lot different. He went from 87 to 80, which was around his career average of 86.

Again, Brady lost Gronk, Hernandez, Welker and Lloyd.

These are HUGE losses. It defies belief that you would diminish this.

 

[Deus Irae]

Favre was 41.
Montana moved to a totally different team.
Young had concussions the next season. Then retired.
Marino is the only one that might be of relevance, but Marino's 35 years of age (what Brady was) compared to his 36 was not a whole lot different. He went from 87 to 80, which was around his career average of 86.

Again, Brady lost Gronk, Hernandez, Welker and Lloyd.

These are HUGE losses. It defies belief that you would diminish this.

He's not a Patriots fan.

 

[Rory Gallagher]

I imagine there is plenty of crap flowing through all the WRs minds. Will I dress? Will Brady even throw me a pass if I dress? Will Brady rely on his binkies? Will Tyms replace me? Why is Vince eating my lunch? Lots of reasons to be insecure and scared beyond the usual crap the pro-athlete has to deal with. Failure breeds contempt unfortunately.....they are human....But BB is not

Ok, I'm done for a while, but this line cracked me up! Hopefully things turn around on Sunday.

 

[IllegalContact]

I imagine there is plenty of crap flowing through all the WRs minds. Will I dress? Will Brady even throw me a pass if I dress? Will Brady rely on his binkies? Will Tyms replace me? Why is Vince eating my lunch? Lots of reasons to be insecure and scared beyond the usual crap the pro-athlete has to deal with. Failure breeds contempt unfortunately.....they are human....But BB is not

But you can understand why if a player isn't being trusted by Brady where the alternative becomes preferred along with offensive line guys who would like the luxury of a QB who is mobile

 

[IllegalContact]

But you can understand why if a player isn't being trusted by Brady where the alternative becomes preferred along with offensive line guys who would like the luxury of a QB who is mobile

True, but if there are enough guys who are in that situation that it could negatively affect the atmosphere.... Not judging....just saying that not everyone is necessarily seeing things the same way and there may not be a majority

 

[IllegalContact]

Oops.....replied to myself

 

[PatsDeb]

I understand, but at the same time am amazed by, the denial going on in our minds about Brady's demise. It's natural to look elsewhere for reasons that he is, a quarter of the way through the season, a below average QB in this league. But honestly, I'm getting sick of the excuses about line play and lack of weapons.

In trying to find an apples to apples comparison, I thought of Jay Cutler and the 2010 Bears. That line may have been the worst line in history. If you remember, Cutler got sacked 52 times that year, which I believe was a record, had more inferior weapons by far (Johnny Knox was his #1, (900 yards), Earl Bennett was his #2 with @ 550 yards and Olsen was his TE and only had 400 yards receiving. He did have Forte, but he had the worst year of his career that year (1,069 yards). AND Cutler wasn't just getting sacked, he was getting KILLED, if you remember. However, Cutler completed 60% of his passes, for 3,200 yards, 23 TDs and only 16 picks, in 15 games. Guys, Brady isn't even going to approach those numbers. So, to sum up, Brady actually has a better OL (on pace for 36 sacks, about league average - and yes, I know this isn't the be all end all stat for line performance, but again, it's apples to apples...), much better weapons, better system (ok, questionable with McDaniels calling the shots), and yet he won't put up the numbers that Cutler put up in 2010, despite having it much worse than Brady currently has. At the time, Cutler was viewed as maybe #15 or so in the league for QBs, about average. So, it seems apparent that Brady is average to below average at this point in his career, and denial isn't going to change that. He's not the first QB to not have a good OL and bad weapons (although I think this is greatly exaggerated in trying to defend Tom), but he IS one of the first "elite" QBs to just fall off the face of the earth when faced with this adversity. I'll have to find the stats I read on SoSH yesterday about his passing when he IS protected this year... it's among the lowest in the league, by far.

There's no shame in getting old, hey, I'm doing it! 37 is the age when most QBs are out of the league, so it's amazing he held on as long as he did. We've all seen with our eyes that Tom can no longer throw over 20 yards or so with any accuracy. We've all heard the stories of the all-22 analysis where he's "missing" guys down field. I personally think he's not "missing" them (he didn't get dumber), rather he knows he can't get the ball to them, so he's going for the safe, 10 - 15 yard throw, even if it's double (or triple) covered.

Put Brady on Denver, and you'd see better results, but it wouldn't be dramatic. You can have all the weapons in the world, but if you can't get them the ball past 20 yards it doesn't matter. He wouldn't have made those throws last week against Seattle to put that game into OT, he just wouldn't. He can't, at least not consistently. The New Orleans game from last year will go down as his final moment of greatness, and I'm ok with that. What a freakin' run!! I love Tom Brady, appreciate all he's done, but the man is done, and there's nothing unusual about it. It's like watching Jim Rice in 87... he still looked the part, but his ability to hit the ball (throw the ball in Tom's case) just fell off the proverbial cliff. It happens.

LOL, that is all I have to say. If you think 37 is old, try 40 or 50. We did make it to the AFC Championship game last year after starting out with about the same record you know. One of Brady's strength's has always been (and looks like it will continue to be) to adapt to what he has around him, even if it takes him a few games to get there. To say the man has fallen off a cliff is a joke.