Biggest need 3-4 END?

[mgteich]

It seems that we have a projected set of starters, if we can expect Kaczur to start at RG.
Dante's graduates are then the backups (two of Connolly, Wendell and Ohrnberger), with the possibility of replacing one with a C/OG, either from free agency or the draft (e.g Pouncy at 42).

That also leaves us with an option of adding a developmental OT, but wouldn't it be more likely that Belichick would simply wait until 2011 and draft a starter?

I would like to choose between a 2nd round C/OG and a 2nd round OT, rather than this year's equivalent of Ohrnberger and Bussey. Let's be clear. Belichick did draft an OT, a developmental OG and a developmental OT last year.

I don't think that we SHOULD use two of our top five picks on OL's. Do you think that we should do so?

I apolgize if you are talking about 6th and 7th rounders as developmental linemen. If so, I care little about these picks, other than the fact that Belichick does well.

If Kaczur moves to starting RG, then I have absolutely no problem with his salary being commensurate with his role, BTW.

 

[mayoclinic]

It seems that we have a projected set of starters, if we can expect Kaczur to start at RG.
Dante's graduates are then the backups (two of Connolly, Wendell and Ohrnberger), with the possibility of replacing one with a C/OG, either from free agency or the draft (e.g Pouncy at 42).

That also leaves us with an option of adding a developmental OT, but wouldn't it be more likely that Belichick would simply wait until 2011 and draft a starter?

I would like to choose between a 2nd round C/OG and a 2nd round OT, rather than this year's equivalent of Ohrnberger and Bussey. Let's be clear. Belichick did draft an OT, a developmental OG and a developmental OT last year.

I don't think that we SHOULD use two of our top five picks on OL's. Do you think that we should do so?

I apolgize if you are talking about 6th and 7th rounders as developmental linemen. If so, I care little about these picks, other than the fact that Belichick does well.

I guess I still don't consider Bussey a developmental OT. To me, he projects at guard all the way.

As for a developmental OT, developmental implies time to develop, so I'd take one in 2010 if the right one is available. I have 2 that I like: Hillsdale OT Jared Veldheer (6'8", 315#, timed in a 4.8 40, very athletic, good kid with tremendous upside) and Stanford OT Chris Marinelli (6'7" 300#, from Braintree, dual major at Stanford including classics, played all OL positions except center, very intelligent, intangibles off the charts, blocked tremendously for Toby Gerhart and Andrew Luck and was the leader of Stanford's dominating OL). Veldheer may end up being this year's Sebastian Vollmer and I'm guessing he'll go in the 3rd round. Marinelli is considered a late round prospect right now. He reportedly didn't get a combine invite, and is very undervalued.

For a good read on Marinelli, here's an interview from his offensive line coach, Tim Drevnos:

Interview Regarding 2010 NFL Draft Prospect, Chris Marinelli

Here's a nice read on Veldheer:

Almost passed up by Hillsdale, Grand Rapids' Jared Veldheer now has a shot at NFL | Grand Rapids Small Colleges - - MLive.com

From what I've read, Marinelli has been outstanding this week at the Shrine Bowl practices. Veldheer will be playing in the Texas vs. the Nation game, and also got a combine invite.

If either of those 2 kids is available at the right spot in the draft, I'd jump. We have plenty of other potential targets in 2011 without needing to draft a starting RT high.

Speaking of starting calibre RTs, depending on who falls to 22 in the 1st round, I wouldn't write off taking Iowa OT Brian Bulaga if he's available. He could probably start at either RG or RT right off the bat, and I think he would be a pro bowl RT for us within a couple of years. He and Vollmer would be outstanding bookends. I'm hoping that Dunlap, Spiller or Dan Williams is available, but Bulaga would be a solid choice.

 

[mgteich]

I have always been somewhat amazed at how highly folks rate the potential of rookies. I think it is an large leap to EXPECT any player to be an all-pro in their first two years, regardless of where they are drafted. I'm sure thay everyone hoped for that for all their first round draftees, but hopes are not expectations.

I have not have any particular problem with drafting Bulaga. It is always good to get a blue-chippper that fits your system. However, I see no reason to expect him as a starting RG or RT. If we were to draft him, I would expect him to ply on the left side, replacing either Light or mankins in 2011. Please post some stuff showing him to be a projected all-pro at RT or RG.

For example, Huddle loves the guy, comparing him to Jake Long, but says he needs to develop more upper body strength.

I guess I still don't consider Bussey a developmental OT. To me, he projects at guard all the way.

As for a developmental OT, developmental implies time to develop, so I'd take one in 2010 if the right one is available. I have 2 that I like: Hillsdale OT Jared Veldheer (6'8", 315#, timed in a 4.8 40, very athletic, good kid with tremendous upside) and Stanford OT Chris Marinelli (6'7" 300#, from Braintree, dual major at Stanford including classics, played all OL positions except center, very intelligent, intangibles off the charts, blocked tremendously for Toby Gerhart and Andrew Luck and was the leader of Stanford's dominating OL). Veldheer may end up being this year's Sebastian Vollmer and I'm guessing he'll go in the 3rd round. Marinelli is considered a late round prospect right now. He reportedly didn't get a combine invite, and is very undervalued.

For a good read on Marinelli, here's an interview from his offensive line coach, Tim Drevnos:

Interview Regarding 2010 NFL Draft Prospect, Chris Marinelli

Here's a nice read on Veldheer:

Almost passed up by Hillsdale, Grand Rapids' Jared Veldheer now has a shot at NFL | Grand Rapids Small Colleges - - MLive.com

From what I've read, Marinelli has been outstanding this week at the Shrine Bowl practices. Veldheer will be playing in the Texas vs. the Nation game, and also got a combine invite.

If either of those 2 kids is available at the right spot in the draft, I'd jump. We have plenty of other potential targets in 2011 without needing to draft a starting RT high.

Speaking of starting calibre RTs, depending on who falls to 22 in the 1st round, I wouldn't write off taking Iowa OT Brian Bulaga if he's available. He could probably start at either RG or RT right off the bat, and I think he would be a pro bowl RT for us within a couple of years. He and Vollmer would be outstanding bookends. I'm hoping that Dunlap, Spiller or Dan Williams is available, but Bulaga would be a solid choice.

 

[bucky]

The more i think about it the more i am certain our 1st pick will be a 3-4 DE or DT from colllege. Unless you put teams on 3rd and Long there is no chance having a pass rush.

Right now if we lineup and a team decides to run 3 times to get a first down well we cannot stop it. especially if you run at green or wright. both give great effort but lack the size as next to the NT the RDE needs to be one big strong dude to take on LT. we cannot expect to move vince to end to play Jake long type players as we lucked out and Jake grove the Miami center got injured and wright was able to handle the backup guy.

Next year if we have Jake Grove and Jake long who is going to play against who as there is only 1 vince. Also ty is a bit smaller for RDE .

Unless brace take a huge step we are in some murky water. also if its 3rd and shot now your asking your pass rusher to hold the edge incase of run.

Last year we had a guy who had off the chart size and speed in jackson who went 3rd overall to KC . We need some one similar and ofcourse less talented as he was last till 22.

I think a 6,5 320 LB DT. I do not care about inconsitent players after brace ,chad kjacksnon,bethel and so on. A good football player.

This seems to be an overreaction to the Baltimore game. Overall, our run D wasn't THAT bad, though it wasn't good either. I would also say that our LBs were worse at stopping the run that our DL - inability to shed blocks, poor setting the edge, and poor tackling were all major issues. So I don't think DE is that high a priority in this draft.

That said, I would love to draft a young DE who will eventually be a 3 down player, but for now, just be able to swing inside on passing downs and generate some pressure up the middle - a true Seymour replacement. But if all we need is a run stuffer, we can get a mid-level guy in free agency.

 

[Defsoul]

As for a developmental OT, developmental implies time to develop, so I'd take one in 2010 if the right one is available. I have 2 that I like: Hillsdale OT Jared Veldheer (...) and Stanford OT Chris Marinelli (...).

I would add OT Rodger Saffold, Indiana to that list. He is getting a lot of praise for his performance during the East-West Shrine practices. He has handled d-linemen well all week and has the size at 6-5, 312 to play offensive tackle. Chad Reuter about Saffold:

It's hard to argue anyone but Saffold was the best player on the field this week. He was strong, moved his feet well in pass protection and when drive-blocking gave good effort through the end of plays, and was mobile enough to hit targets at the second level.

Wes Bunting about Saffold:

He’s the one guy this week who’s really starting to separate himself from the rest of the pack because of his ability to dominate off the edge. He again did a number on LSU’s Rahim Alem during one-on-one drills and displays the best flexibility, footwork and overall coordination of any tackle here. He’s been a clear winner so far this week.

 

[mayoclinic]

I would add OT Rodger Saffold, Indiana to that list. He is getting a lot of praise for his performance during the East-West Shrine practices. He has handled d-linemen well all week and has the size at 6-5, 312 to play offensive tackle.

Saffold seems to be the concensus big winner out of the Shrine week. He's certainly dominated the competition. I would have to agree that he should get a serious look, as both an OG and an OT. He has generally been projected to guard, but his Shrine week certainly suggests he has potential at tackle as well.

 

[SanAngeloState]

I thought I read that Marinelli got pushed around all over the place and couldn't hold his ground. Sounds like we already have a bunch of those guys already.

OT Scott from Tennessee and OG/C from Clemson Austin would be interesting. Think we need a replacement for Koppen. Kaczur could play guard, I would think.

 

[mayoclinic]

I thought I read that Marinelli got pushed around all over the place and couldn't hold his ground. Sounds like we already have a bunch of those guys already.

OT Scott from Tennessee and OG/C from Clemson Austin would be interesting. Think we need a replacement for Koppen. Kaczur could play guard, I would think.

I've read conflicting things. Todd McShay did say that Marinelli got pushed around and needs to get stronger.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I thought I read that Marinelli got pushed around all over the place and couldn't hold his ground. Sounds like we already have a bunch of those guys already.

OT Scott from Tennessee and OG/C from Clemson Austin would be interesting. Think we need a replacement for Koppen. Kaczur could play guard, I would think.

Marinelli had his moments, but he's not dominated as much as you'd like to see for a Shrine game practice. Saffold and surprisingly Estes have been the most consistent OL.

 

[satz]

This seems to be an overreaction to the Baltimore game. Overall, our run D wasn't THAT bad, though it wasn't good either. I would also say that our LBs were worse at stopping the run that our DL - inability to shed blocks, poor setting the edge, and poor tackling were all major issues. So I don't think DE is that high a priority in this draft.
.

Actually we are saying the same thing. Not only our LB but most college LB or DE coming out struggle to play the run. so if we have made our mind to get young LB/DE to play on the edge the run defense is going to weaken.You cover that up with good DL play. If we get a young DE to take the pressure of the OLB as far as run defense goes we are going to develop some OLB players.

clay mathews got 10 sacks if you watched the games the DE on his side holds up very good against the run and also does stuff to get clay in space on the tackles. I am not sure even if we got clay and put him next to wright or green you will get the same effect.

 

[upstater1]

I really wonder about Wes Bunting's analysis.

So many of his glosses on players have been the exact opposite of Todd McShay's takes, and now we have yet another example. Read the write-ups by both of them on Lindsay Witten.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

This seems to be an overreaction to the Baltimore game. Overall, our run D wasn't THAT bad, though it wasn't good either. I would also say that our LBs were worse at stopping the run that our DL - inability to shed blocks, poor setting the edge, and poor tackling were all major issues. So I don't think DE is that high a priority in this draft.

I think there is a lot of truth to this, our D Line was not that bad during the sseaon and maybe if Warren and Wilfork are healthy for the last game, we might not have given up over 200 yards.

But at the end of the day, our D line is not dominant and does not do a great job of keeping opposing O Line guys off the linebackers and that is where we need to toughen up first and foremost on defense.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I really wonder about Wes Bunting's analysis.

So many of his glosses on players have been the exact opposite of Todd McShay's takes, and now we have yet another example. Read the write-ups by both of them on Lindsay Witten.

What does McShay say about Witten? (I don't subscribe.)

 

[mayoclinic]

What does McShay say about Witten? (I don't subscribe.)

McShay: "Witten had a solid week of practice, but today's good showing leaves a favorable impression in scouts' minds. He showed active hands and good upper-body strength during team run period. He also showed a little bit of a mean streak when he got double-teamed and fought through it nicely. He used his quickness around the edge and his active hands to victimize Rutgers OL Kevin Haslam during one-on-one pass rush drills. There are concerns about his ability to anchor in the run game, but he showed quickness and is tougher than his size (6-foot-4, 251 pounds) might suggest."

Wisconsin Badgers' O'Brien Schofield makes most of opportunity - ESPN

However, I have been unable to find any comments from Bunting on Witten in the notes he has published this week on NFP, so it's hard for me to compare his view with McShay's.

And both Bunting and McShay seem to agree in giving a thumbs down to Stanford OL Chris Marinelli.

Bunting: "After watching Marinelli in practice, I simply didn’t see type of initial burst from him off the edge to make me think he has the ability to consistently set vs. NFL-caliber rushers. He struggles to keep his base down on contact, can be overwhelmed at the point and isn’t an efficient puncher. Overall, Marinelli was beaten with speed, power and quickness this week and looks like a guy who will end up having a tough time making an NFL roster as a tackle."

East-West Shrine Game: practice impressions | National Football Post

McShay: "We talked about Marinelli having a down practice on Tuesday, and he did not redeem himself on Wednesday. He works hard from snap to whistle, but he didn't get any kind of movement as a run-blocker during one-on-ones or team period. Even worse, he couldn't get the job done in the pass-blocking one-on-ones. The big issue is that he gives up far too much ground, to the point where the coaches told him he has to take surrender out of his game. It was a bad day where Marinelli had trouble with both speed and power rushers."

Emmanuel Sanders, Nate Collins top list of players who had a good Day 3 of practice - ESPN

Combined with his 32 3/8" arms on a 6'7" frame, it doesn't sound very promising for Marinelli at the next level. Too bad. Good kid.

 

[PatsCanDoIt]

It seems like a lot of us here focus on the early rounds to the extent that the later rounds are almost non-existant.

If there are zero prototypical 5-techs early, then Bill will just take a shot in dark later with a guy like Linval Joseph. Why would Bill reach for a 5-tech the only two guys may be better than Warren? At 22 would you rather have, at best, a Shaun Ellis guy or an offensive skill player? I don't see Bill going after a pass rusher there or an interior lineman. I hope Bill doesn't take a TE there. That leaves BPA or trade down as the options. Unless a Wilfork-type draft scenario happens.

 

[mayoclinic]

It seems like a lot of us here focus on the early rounds to the extent that the later rounds are almost non-existant.

If there are zero prototypical 5-techs early, then Bill will just take a shot in dark later with a guy like Linval Joseph. Why would Bill reach for a 5-tech the only two guys may be better than Warren? At 22 would you rather have, at best, a Shaun Ellis guy or an offensive skill player? I don't see Bill going after a pass rusher there or an interior lineman. I hope Bill doesn't take a TE there. That leaves BPA or trade down as the options. Unless a Wilfork-type draft scenario happens.

I've been suggesting a late round developmental 5-technique guy for months. Wright was the most improved player on the team last year, and I don't see any rookie displacing him as a starter this year.

I've suggested Clifton Geathers, Doug Worthington and Brandon Deaderick as possibilities. Linval Joseph may be another. I'd much rather do that than reach, especially at 22, when there are potentia impact players available at other positions.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

It seems like a lot of us here focus on the early rounds to the extent that the later rounds are almost non-existant.

If there are zero prototypical 5-techs early, then Bill will just take a shot in dark later with a guy like Linval Joseph. Why would Bill reach for a 5-tech the only two guys may be better than Warren? At 22 would you rather have, at best, a Shaun Ellis guy or an offensive skill player? I don't see Bill going after a pass rusher there or an interior lineman. I hope Bill doesn't take a TE there. That leaves BPA or trade down as the options. Unless a Wilfork-type draft scenario happens.

I'm going to have to re-watch the ECU/Arkansas game to get a better feel for Joseph, but the ECU DL who stood out for me in that game was Jay Ross, he would make a good 5-tech late in the draft and could play the 0-tech too.

 

[PatsCanDoIt]

I'm going to have to re-watch the ECU/Arkansas game to get a better feel for Joseph, but the ECU DL who stood out for me in that game was Jay Ross, he would make a good 5-tech late in the draft and could play the 0-tech too.

He is projected as a 5th or 6th rounder. But as a 6-6 and 300+ pounder who can really move. Why not?

One highlight has him lead blocking a db on an int return and outrunning a LBer.
YouTube - Linval Josesp DTmm.mpg

 

[mayoclinic]

I think there is a lot of truth to this, our D Line was not that bad during the season and maybe if Warren and Wilfork are healthy for the last game, we might not have given up over 200 yards.

We played 9 of our 16 games against teams with top 10 rushing attacks (#1 Jets twice, #2 Tennessee, #3 Carolina, #4 Miami twice, #5 Baltimore, #6 New Orleans, and #10 Jacksonville). Weighting NY and Miami as counting twice, those 9 teams averaged 148.6 YPG rushing. We averaged 110.5 YPG overall against the run, and against those 9 teams we averaged 120.9 YPG, well below their average. So despite our terrible performance against Baltimore, we were certainly better than average against the run all year, if not necessarily as good as we would like to be.

 

[Lakeville Glenn]

Lack of a pass rush is the most glaring weakness of the 2009 team.

Unless a studly DL/DE falls in their lap at #22, I think a pass rushing OLB will be at the top of the priority list. They lost too many LB's too fast with both Bruschi and Vrable ...and now A.Thomas becoming all but invisable.