Biggest need 3-4 END?

[mayoclinic]

I guess there is something to be said for directness.

1) DEFENSIVE END is an important position.
2) WARREN is the only DE on the roster.
3) It is reasonable to carry 3-4 DE's.
4) How high a priority should DE be?
5) How many DE's should we bring in?

I'm not sure you need a "pure" 3-4 DE just for the sake of it. I would argue that we had 1 on our roster last year - Ty Warren. Neither Mike Wright nor Jarvis Green was a pure 3-4 DE. Wright was an undersized DT who has learned to play 3-4 DE reasonably well. Green was undersized as a 3-4 DE, and wasn't particularly strong against the run. We've never had 3-4 true 3-4 DE's on our roster at one time. The most we've really had is Seymour and Warren. Marquis Hill was an attempt to add a 3rd, but he never really produced.

I think we could significantly upgrade our overall defense without overspending on a "pure" 3-4 DE prospect, given that none of the ones in the draft appears to be a stud. Two options which come to mind are Carlos Dunlap and Dan Williams.

I don't consider Carlos Dunlap a 3-4 DE by any stretch, but I think that he would be a huge upgrade over Green day 1. Wright-Wilfork-Warren could be our starting DE lineup with Dunlap playing 4-3 DE, 3-4 elephant, and backing up Wright/Warren as a 3-4 DE particularly in situations where more pass rushing pressure is indicated.

Williams as a DT, but he appears to have the kind of athleticism, agility, lateral mobility and burst to play 3-4 DE as well. For me, Haloti Ngata is one of the 6 best defensive players under 30 in the NFL that I would build a team around (along with DeMarcus Ware, Jared Allen, Patrick Willis, Troy Polamalu, and Darrelle Revis). Having a guy with that kind of size and mobility could be an enormous asset to a defense. I don't know if Williams can be another Ngata, but the possibility is certainly worth looking into. Wilfork himself played 3-4 DE with some effectiveness for us this season.

I'd love to get a 6'5" or taller 290-310# guy with athleticism to play DE for us. I don't see either Odrick or Arthur Jones being good enough to justify reaching for them in the 1st round. Corey Wootten has nice size and athleticism, but has been inconsistent post-injury. I've suggested Clifton Geathers as a developmental guy with a lot of athleticism and size who could have a high upside. Brandon Deaderick from Alabama is also a solid developmental guy.

If a true 3-4 DE continues to be so important for us, then I'm also fine going after Cameron Heyward in 2011 with the 1st round pick from Oakland.

Take Dan Williams at 22 and use him at DE this season. Draft a developmental 3-4 DE as well. If Wilfork is franchised this year, franchise him again in 2011 and trade him, and use the pick to draft a 3-4 DE like Heyward, moving Williams to NT.

 

[mgteich]

I think it very unlikely that Wilfork will simply play under a tag, without holding out for the entire offseason. I strongly favor trying to extend him. If a deal can't be reached, I would expect him to be playing elsewhere.

I'm not sure you need a "pure" 3-4 DE just for the sake of it. I would argue that we had 1 on our roster last year - Ty Warren. Neither Mike Wright nor Jarvis Green was a pure 3-4 DE. Wright was an undersized DT who has learned to play 3-4 DE reasonably well. Green was undersized as a 3-4 DE, and wasn't particularly strong against the run. We've never had 3-4 true 3-4 DE's on our roster at one time. The most we've really had is Seymour and Warren. Marquis Hill was an attempt to add a 3rd, but he never really produced.

I think we could significantly upgrade our overall defense without overspending on a "pure" 3-4 DE prospect, given that none of the ones in the draft appears to be a stud. Two options which come to mind are Carlos Dunlap and Dan Williams.

I don't consider Carlos Dunlap a 3-4 DE by any stretch, but I think that he would be a huge upgrade over Green day 1. Wright-Wilfork-Warren could be our starting DE lineup with Dunlap playing 4-3 DE, 3-4 elephant, and backing up Wright/Warren as a 3-4 DE particularly in situations where more pass rushing pressure is indicated.

Williams as a DT, but he appears to have the kind of athleticism, agility, lateral mobility and burst to play 3-4 DE as well. For me, Haloti Ngata is one of the 6 best defensive players under 30 in the NFL that I would build a team around (along with DeMarcus Ware, Jared Allen, Patrick Willis, Troy Polamalu, and Darrelle Revis). Having a guy with that kind of size and mobility could be an enormous asset to a defense. I don't know if Williams can be another Ngata, but the possibility is certainly worth looking into. Wilfork himself played 3-4 DE with some effectiveness for us this season.

I'd love to get a 6'5" or taller 290-310# guy with athleticism to play DE for us. I don't see either Odrick or Arthur Jones being good enough to justify reaching for them in the 1st round. Corey Wootten has nice size and athleticism, but has been inconsistent post-injury. I've suggested Clifton Geathers as a developmental guy with a lot of athleticism and size who could have a high upside. Brandon Deaderick from Alabama is also a solid developmental guy.

If a true 3-4 DE continues to be so important for us, then I'm also fine going after Cameron Heyward in 2011 with the 1st round pick from Oakland.

Take Dan Williams at 22 and use him at DE this season. Draft a developmental 3-4 DE as well. If Wilfork is franchised this year, franchise him again in 2011 and trade him, and use the pick to draft a 3-4 DE like Heyward, moving Williams to NT.

 

[Nonentity]

So, in order to make this work
1) Wright needs to be a starter at DE instead of his more natural DT position.
2) Pryor needs to be the backup DT instead of his more natural DT position.
3) Draft TWO starting OLB's
4) re-sign Banta-Cain and Burgess as backups.
5) Count on Crable.

It seems to be a lot more straightforward to draft a DE and an OLB.

There's a number of thoughts going into this.

1) The defensive front was terrible this year. We had no pass rush. In our efforts to make up for this, we were less effective against the run.

2) Neither Adalius Thomas nor Jarvis Green will return. Both were starters at the beginning of the season, ignoring the 4-3 flirtation.

3) It is going to be more difficult to get the best 3-4 DEs in future because a number of other teams have switched to the 3-4 in the last 5-7 years.

4) Our strength against the run was previously based on an elite front 3 with lesser talent on the edges. If we cannot get back to the same level on the line, we can restore our strength against the run with OLBs who can set the edge consistently.

5) There are more and more DE/OLB tweeners coming out of college who appear suited for the 'elephant' position. By drafting quality in this area instead, we can force our opponents to worry about both the linemen (who will always rush) and the OLBs (who have the talent to beat single blockers). This will create numerous protection difficulties, especially if we have edge rushers who can regularly beat blocking TEs.

6) Both Pryor and Wright strike me as natural 4-3 DTs who have skill sets better suited to end than the nose. Wright can play it, I doubt Pryor can - or, at least, it wastes him.

7) We still lack depth in this situation, but we did anyway. I don't see a solution which both gets rid of under-performing players AND gives us depth.

 

[mgteich]

OK, let's separate DT's and DE/OLB's

DEFENSIVE TACKLES
We will either have Wilfork or a 1st to draft Cody or Williams.
Wright, Brace and Pryor are our other defensive tackles.
I think that this is fine for both 3-4 and 4-3 sets.

DEFENSIVE ENDS AND PASSRUSH OLB's
We have Warren as one starter.
We had Green, Burgess, Banta-Cain, Thomas and Ninkovich.
Most here would like to improvement over the production of these players.

WHO WILL FILL AND UPGRADE THESE FIVE OLB/DE POSITIONS?
There are 5 players. Only Ninkovich seems a lock to return. This group was arguably the weakest part of our defense.

There's a number of thoughts going into this.

1) The defensive front was terrible this year. We had no pass rush. In our efforts to make up for this, we were less effective against the run.

2) Neither Adalius Thomas nor Jarvis Green will return. Both were starters at the beginning of the season, ignoring the 4-3 flirtation.

3) It is going to be more difficult to get the best 3-4 DEs in future because a number of other teams have switched to the 3-4 in the last 5-7 years.

4) Our strength against the run was previously based on an elite front 3 with lesser talent on the edges. If we cannot get back to the same level on the line, we can restore our strength against the run with OLBs who can set the edge consistently.

5) There are more and more DE/OLB tweeners coming out of college who appear suited for the 'elephant' position. By drafting quality in this area instead, we can force our opponents to worry about both the linemen (who will always rush) and the OLBs (who have the talent to beat single blockers). This will create numerous protection difficulties, especially if we have edge rushers who can regularly beat blocking TEs.

6) Both Pryor and Wright strike me as natural 4-3 DTs who have skill sets better suited to end than the nose. Wright can play it, I doubt Pryor can - or, at least, it wastes him.

7) We still lack depth in this situation, but we did anyway. I don't see a solution which both gets rid of under-performing players AND gives us depth.

 

[ayjackson]

OK, let's separate DT's and DE/OLB's

I think it's simpler to deal with the base set (3-4).

NT's - Wilfork, Brace
DE's - Warren, Wright, Pryor, Richard
OLB - Burgess, Banta-Cain, Ninkovic, Crable

Obviously this assumes some re-signings. I think Wright and Pryor profile better to end than nose in our base.

We need some veteran presence at OLB so I think Burgess/Banta-Cain come back unless we're active in FA.

How much of our 53 can we dedicate to DL? OLB?

DL - I think we can go 7 deep which would probably mean an addition in FA and the Draft and Richard back to the PS.

OLB - Likely go 5 deep here, which would leave one draftee coming in to compete for the 53 and a FA if we decide against Burgess or Banta-Cain.

 

[mgteich]

I think that you mask the passrushing need by focusing on the base 3-4. I think that we usually keep 15 in the front 7. If Burgess is an OLB, then we only need 6 DL's, as you have in your listing.
===============

NT Wilfork, Brace
DE Warren, GREEN/Richard
DT Wright, Pryor

DE/OLB BANTA-CAIN, BURGESS

OLB THOMAS, Ninkovich/Crable
ILB Mayo, Guyton, McKenzie

ST WOODS, ALEXANDER

I think it's simpler to deal with the base set (3-4).

NT's - Wilfork, Brace
DE's - Warren, Wright, Pryor, Richard
OLB - Burgess, Banta-Cain, Ninkovic, Crable

Obviously this assumes some re-signings. I think Wright and Pryor profile better to end than nose in our base.

We need some veteran presence at OLB so I think Burgess/Banta-Cain come back unless we're active in FA.

How much of our 53 can we dedicate to DL? OLB?

DL - I think we can go 7 deep which would probably mean an addition in FA and the Draft and Richard back to the PS.

OLB - Likely go 5 deep here, which would leave one draftee coming in to compete for the 53 and a FA if we decide against Burgess or Banta-Cain.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I think it's simpler to deal with the base set (3-4).

NT's - Wilfork, Brace
DE's - Warren, Wright, Pryor, Richard
OLB - Burgess, Banta-Cain, Ninkovic, Crable

Obviously this assumes some re-signings. I think Wright and Pryor profile better to end than nose in our base.

We need some veteran presence at OLB so I think Burgess/Banta-Cain come back unless we're active in FA.

How much of our 53 can we dedicate to DL? OLB?

DL - I think we can go 7 deep which would probably mean an addition in FA and the Draft and Richard back to the PS.

OLB - Likely go 5 deep here, which would leave one draftee coming in to compete for the 53 and a FA if we decide against Burgess or Banta-Cain.

I don't consider Pryor a 3-4 DE, he's a reserve NT who, at this point in time, should be ahead of Brace on the depth chart. Between Pryor and Wright NE has some good reserve depth at the NT position, but unless Pryor or Brace step up in Training Camp this summer, I don't see either filling the void of a Wilfork holdout/departure. Perhaps, if Brace steps up, the two combined with Wright could get the job done.

I expect NE to make an effort to return Green, Banta-Cain, and Burgess. I expect Wilfork to be franchised, I'm not expecting him to be extended. I'm looking closely at the NTs in this draft because it may be necessary for NE to draft one if the Wilfork situation gets nasty.

Even returning Green, this draft class has some DL who are worth considering for RDE to push Green back into a rotation - I consider that a higher priority in rounds one and two than OLB.

 

[chevss454]

I think that you mask the passrushing need by focusing on the base 3-4. I think that we usually keep 15 in the front 7. If Burgess is an OLB, then we only need 6 DL's, as you have in your listing.
===============

NT Wilfork, Brace
DE Warren, GREEN/Richard
DT Wright, Pryor

DE/OLB BANTA-CAIN, BURGESS draft: Dunlap, Ricky Sapp, Everson Griffen

OLB THOMAS, Ninkovich/Crable draft: jerry hughes, Sapp


ILB Mayo, Guyton, McKenzie FA: Dansby. draft: McClain, Spikes,
Micah Johnson

ST WOODS, ALEXANDER

There is really good quantity and quality in this yr's draft (it appears, anyway). Glad to have the picks they have.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

There is really good quantity and quality in this yr's draft (it appears, anyway). Glad to have the picks they have.

Von Miller went back to school.

 

[mgteich]

Perhaps the best answer at OLB is to allow Thomas and Banta-Cain to be our primary pass rushers.

I don't consider Pryor a 3-4 DE, he's a reserve NT who, at this point in time, should be ahead of Brace on the depth chart. Between Pryor and Wright NE has some good reserve depth at the NT position, but unless Pryor or Brace step up in Training Camp this summer, I don't see either filling the void of a Wilfork holdout/departure. Perhaps, if Brace steps up, the two combined with Wright could get the job done.

I expect NE to make an effort to return Green, Banta-Cain, and Burgess. I expect Wilfork to be franchised, I'm not expecting him to be extended. I'm looking closely at the NTs in this draft because it may be necessary for NE to draft one if the Wilfork situation gets nasty.

Even returning Green, this draft class has some DL who are worth considering for RDE to push Green back into a rotation - I consider that a higher priority in rounds one and two than OLB.

 

[chevss454]

Von Miller went back to school.

Oh well, thanks for telling me. I fixed it

 

[ayjackson]

Perhaps the best answer at OLB is to allow Thomas and Banta-Cain to be our primary pass rushers.

Thomas looked disinterested last year. I wasn't surprised he was benched. Maybe he had problems off the field, but I for one was dissappointed in his effort.

He looked to me like someone who was trying to play their way out of town.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Oh well, thanks for telling me. I fixed it

He needed another year, as good as he was an extra year in the weight room will make him a better all-round player.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Perhaps the best answer at OLB is to allow Thomas and Banta-Cain to be our primary pass rushers.

Thomas has a long way to go before he's back in my good graces, if it was my call he'd be cut or traded shortly after the trading window opens.

Burgess was looking better as he picked up the system, I'd try to re-sign him. TBC clearly should be re-signed, I wish we knew what the glitch was in the midseason contract effort.
Ninkovich showed me some speed off the edge and some toughness against the run.
Woods is an enigma, I've seen him play well, and I've watched him disappear, I don't know if it's mental or if he's just hit his ceiling.

In the first and second rounds the only OLB candidate I currently have on my shortlist is Eric Norwood - and he'll need to start as a third down specialist and Special Team's Ace.

I have a handful of late round/UDFA kids, any of whom I'd like NE to take flyers on:
Frank Zombo (CMU)
Alex Daniels (Cincinnati)
Brandon Sharpe (TX Tech)
Koa Misi (Utah)
Larry Knight (CMU)
John Fletcher (Wyoming) - I see him more as a 5-tech, but he'd be a strong run defender alongside Warren and would help collapse the pocket and clog passing lanes opposite a speed rusher like TBC.

I expect to add to that list after this weekend as I watch the Shrine Game.

 

[BradyManny]

Speaking of DL - as I said, I failed to pay much attention to the college game this year, can someone fill me in on what the heck happened to Vince Oghobaase's stock?

 

[BionicPatriot]

Is there no FAs? available? I know BB isn't going into the draft filling every need like some of you think. I think some needs will obviously be addressed via free agency, which is why it's hard t declare what their #1 need is until free agency is done.

Clearly, if they do not get someone to help the rush the QB, we're looking at an OLB #1. If we do find a suitable FA, I agree than we need to look at a 3-4 DE, some depth along the OL, and look for a WR for the future with one of our 2nd rounders. Golden Tate, anyone?

 

[Seneschal2]

Is there no FAs? available? I know BB isn't going into the draft filling every need like some of you think. I think some needs will obviously be addressed via free agency, which is why it's hard t declare what their #1 need is until free agency is done.

Of course he'll dip into FA. Exactly how deep and which shelf -- no one knows.

Clearly, if they do not get someone to help the rush the QB, we're looking at an OLB #1

Nope. Hypothetically, if the Pats #1 need is an edge rusher, but none of the available prospects has round one value (according to BB), then the Pats pick at #22 will be a different position. Keep in mind that the Pats ranking system (draft board), is based on value.

 

[IcyPatriot]

I think we need a DE who can set the edge more than one who can rush the passer ... in our system anyways.

 

[carolinatony]

In the first and second rounds the only OLB candidate I currently have on my shortlist is Eric Norwood - and he'll need to start as a third down specialist and Special Team's Ace.



Eric Norwood, OLB, South Carolina
Yes,I have seen him play a few times being here in Carolina. Solid player.
What other guys are you high on for us BOR? You have a good grasp of players like some others on here.
thanks

 

[Nonentity]

Is there no FAs? available? I know BB isn't going into the draft filling every need like some of you think. I think some needs will obviously be addressed via free agency, which is why it's hard t declare what their #1 need is until free agency is done.

Clearly, if they do not get someone to help the rush the QB, we're looking at an OLB #1. If we do find a suitable FA, I agree than we need to look at a 3-4 DE, some depth along the OL, and look for a WR for the future with one of our 2nd rounders. Golden Tate, anyone?

I do not believe that we can adequately replace our problem at 3-4 DE in this off-season in time for the 2010 regular season. There are no top-tier draft prospects and the rest seem to be forcing round players (tee hee) into square holes. Lots of good 3-technique tackles this year though.

We have also holes at both OLB positions, as shown by our complete absence of a pass rush and our weakness against the run. We didn't draft a replacement for Vrabel last year and Adalius Thomas will be cut. Free Agency is a lovely idea but the bucket is empty and the competition will be ridiculous. For those players who are UFAs, I believe that they will receive some of the most lucrative deals ever seen. Karlos Dansby is gonna get paid, big time

Unlike the Raiders, our free agents are keen to re-sign with us. I keep Banta-Cain and Burgess, since they've had a chance to learn the plays, which is always crucial in a complex defense such as this one. That doesn't mean they're good enough to start in the base 3-4 though.

Who has been our most effective and adaptable defensive lineman? Step forward Mike Wright. He had an excellent game against the Bills and didn't sit on his new contract like certain players in the NFL. He continues to work hard. I believe that he would respond well to the challenge of starting each week alongside Wilfork and Warren. He will not be Seymour, but he won't let the team down.

Who are our best current OLBs, excluding Adalius Thomas? Tully Banta-Cain and Derrick Burgess. The former had 10 sacks but can't play the run, while the latter is still adapting. I think Burgess made good steps but clearly isn't there yet.

Ninkovich and Crable are backups, if they even qualify for that title. Ninkovich has worked hard but you wouldn't want him starting multiple games for you. With Free Agency a dud we need to draft two OLBs using our picks. If they can start the first game, fantastic. If they can't, let's hope that they can contribute on passing downs. If they can't do that, you're looking at busts that Dolly Parton would be proud of.

We have 4 top picks in the draft and two of them need to be used on OLBs. I have advocated drafting at least one larger OLB than usual ('elephant') to fill this role, hence my consistent interest in Carlos Dunlap and Austen Lane. Such a position requires a rare combination of size and speed that is very difficult to find regularly. Just look at Peppers (6'6, 283), who went 2nd overall. Can we draft players in that kind of mold to play 3-4 OLB? I want to aim high.

Ignoring trades, a 1st/2nd round selection of Dunlap/Hardy, Ducasse, Micah Johnson and Lane is my most achievable view of perfection. Until tomorrow, anyway.

This would mean a defense of:

Bodden - Meriweather - Sanders/Chung - Butler
           Johnson   -    Mayo
    Lane                           Dunlap/Hardy
         Wright - Wilfork - Warren

with Banta-Cain, Pryor and Guyton coming onto the field on passing downs, as well as extra DBs.