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Biggest need 3-4 END?

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by satz, Jan 19, 2010.

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  1. satz

    satz 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    The more i think about it the more i am certain our 1st pick will be a 3-4 DE or DT from colllege. Unless you put teams on 3rd and Long there is no chance having a pass rush.

    Right now if we lineup and a team decides to run 3 times to get a first down well we cannot stop it. especially if you run at green or wright. both give great effort but lack the size as next to the NT the RDE needs to be one big strong dude to take on LT. we cannot expect to move vince to end to play Jake long type players as we lucked out and Jake grove the Miami center got injured and wright was able to handle the backup guy.

    Next year if we have Jake Grove and Jake long who is going to play against who as there is only 1 vince. Also ty is a bit smaller for RDE .

    Unless brace take a huge step we are in some murky water. also if its 3rd and shot now your asking your pass rusher to hold the edge incase of run.

    Last year we had a guy who had off the chart size and speed in jackson who went 3rd overall to KC . We need some one similar and ofcourse less talented as he was last till 22.

    I think a 6,5 320 LB DT. I do not care about inconsitent players after brace ,chad kjacksnon,bethel and so on. A good football player.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2010
  2. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If we stay at 22 and 42, it seems likely that we will fill our top needs there: DL and OG. Belichick has done very well with Round 1 linemen.
     
  3. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not sure I'd rate 3-4 DE as a need ahead of the pass rush or OL. And I don't see any pure 3-4 DE worth taking at 22. I consider Corey Wootten, Arthur Jones and Jared Odrick all 2nd round picks right now. If Cameron Heyward had declared, that would have been different.

    I'd be happy to take Dan Williams from Tennessee at 22, depending on who else is available. 6'3", 327#, terrific burst and agility for his size, could probably play both the nose and the 5-technique for us. Would provide insurance in case Wilfork leaves, and either he or Wilfork could move to DE if Wilfork stays. 50-50 that he lasts to #22 at this point. He's a bit inconsistent and needs a tough disciplinarian to motivate him, but has explosive talent.

    I'd also be happy to take Carlos Dunlap at 22. He's not a 3-4 DE IMHO, but we could use him as a 4-3 DE and at the elephant. He would bring an immediate pass rushing presence to the DL.

    Finally, I'd consider taking Terrance Cody at 22 and playing Wilfork at DE. I think that would add more to our defence than one of the 3 guys listed at the beginning of this post.
     
  4. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Odrick is moving up in some mocks. However, I agree with you choices at 22. The DE might be picked when a trade down or with 42. I don't see us waiting past 50 for our linemen.

     
  5. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not sure I see DE as as big a need as you do. Green may have been the starter in name, but he was just a journeyman for us this year, and Mike Wright was a much better player. I'm OK with a starting 3-4 DL of Wright-Wilfork-Warren, and replacing Green with a development 3-4 DE like Clifton Geathers or Brandon Deaderick in the 4th round. Green was a 4th round pick himself, so BB has waited past 50 for a DL in the past.

    I would hate to see us pass up playmakers and blue chip potential for another solid red chip player. We've all been lamenting the lack of playmakers on this team, and now we should take a solid but unspectacular guy, especially when there are other equally solid but unspectacular guys available (Arthur Jones, Corey Wootten)?

    I dont' think so.
     
  6. chevss454

    chevss454 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Sideline Scouting has the Pats taking

    22. Jerry Hughes, OLB
    44. Corey Wootton DE (although they have Odrick going 45)
    47. Jahvid Best RB
    53. Maurkice Pouncey C/OG

    Sideline Scouting - Mock Draft
     
  7. BradyManny

    BradyManny Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I can see why one would list 3-4 End as our top need. We got rid of one starting DE in Seymour without having an truly adequate replacement. And while Green & Wright are both good players, our defense has always been predicated on having an elite line. Neither player is elite.
     
  8. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Green play over 50% of the defensive reps. We need a replacement. Burgess pplayed over 50% of the defensive reps. We need to re-sign or replace him.



     
  9. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Neither is Odrick. I'm not sure he'd end up being much of an upgrade over Mike Wright. At best he's another Ty Warren.

    Again, I have no problem taking a Cameron Heyward if he had declared. And I have no problem taking a Dan Williams, who could potentially be a Ngata-like 3-4 DE for us. I just don't see the need to reach for someone at 22 just because we traded Seymour.
     
  10. Nonentity

    Nonentity Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    He's moving up, but only out of desperation for someone at 3-4 DE. Plenty of teams need someone at the position, but there's no-one with first-round talent especially suited to it this year. He's not a 1st round talent.

    Wright's performance against the Bills in December showed that he can start for us. Green will not be resigned and I would have made Wright the starter anyway.
     
  11. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So, Wright is your starting DE and Pryor is the first off the bench at DE and our passrushing DE is Burgess or free agent?

     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2010
  12. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's a solid draft. I'm not a big fan of Hughes for the Pats because I don't think he can set the edge, but if you subsitute Jason Pierre-Paul (going #24 in their mock) then it's an excellent draft.

    I prefer Wootten to Odrick because I think Wootten provides a bit more penetration and play-making ability, which we lost with Seymour. But to make it even better, trade up a few spots in the 2nd round and get Dan Williams (going #39 in this mock). Jason Pierre-Paul, Dan Williams, Jahvid Best, and either Maurkice Pouncey or Vladimir Ducasse (going #73 in this mock) would be an outstanding first 2 rounds. Trade up in the 4th to get Austen Lane or Jared Veldheer (going 97 and 100; preferably figure out how to get both, perhaps trading Adalius Thomas) and it would be an extremely good draft, one of the best I've seen.

    I would be ecstatic if I could come away with the following:

    - DT/DE Dan Williams, Tennessee 6'3", 327#
    - DE/OLB Jason Pierre-Paul, USF - 6'6", 265#
    - DE/OLB Austen Lane, Murray State - 6'6", 260#
    - OG/C or OG/OT Maurkice Pouncey (6'5", 318#) or Vlad Ducasse (6'5", 330#)
    - OT Jared Veldheer, Hillsdayle - 6'8", 315#
    - RB Jahvid Best, Cal - 5'10", 190#

    That would significantly upgrade our talent on both offense, defense and special teams. Add Karlos Dansby at SILB and a 3rd WR in FA, and I think we would be ready to contend again.
     
  13. MagnumPI5

    MagnumPI5 Rookie

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    It might be an interesting scenario if the Pats are offered a 2nd and 3rd rounder by one of the top 5 teams for our 1st and 6th. Having five picks in the 34-69 range could be very tempting. Can you imagine a draft like this:

    2a: Mike Iupati
    2b: Corey Wooten
    2c: Syd'Quan Johnson
    2d:Maurkice Pouncey
    3:Austen Lane
    4: Micah Johnson

    ___Later rounds (who knows about comps and possible trade ups). Here are some targets (in no particular order):
    LR: Myron Rolle
    LR: Freddie Barnes
    LR:Clifton Geathers
    LR: LeGarrette Blount
    LR: Zoltan Mesko
    LR: Adrian Tracy
     
  14. BradyManny

    BradyManny Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Fair enough.

    It makes me feel more and more like we should've just kept Seymour. Looking at our payroll, I truly see no reason why we could not have afforded both him and Wilfork. If we cut Adalius, we'll be under $90 million. If there had been a cap this year, it'd probably be between $130-140 million. I think the Krafts should be prepared to spend on the higher side of that if they want to compete for a title next year.

    Sorry for the tangent. As for 3-4 DEs this draft, I have to admit to being woefully behind on draft prep this season. All I know is, I'd take Cody, and as you say, move Vince to DE. Imagine how stout that line would be.

    Another need, however, is some interior pressure. Again, Seymour provided some of that. Mike Wright has done a decent job of applying pressure from the inside. However, as bad as we need someone on the edge, if we had a good interior rush, that'd solve a lot of issues, too. Is there anyone in this draft who can fit that need?
     
  15. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I guess there is something to be said for directness.

    1) DEFENSIVE END is an important position.
    2) WARREN is the only DE on the roster.
    3) It is reasonable to carry 3-4 DE's.
    4) How high a priority should DE be?
    5) How many DE's should we bring in?
     
  16. Nonentity

    Nonentity Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Essentially. I'm looking for a move to larger 3-4 OLBs who can pass-rush while still holding up against the run.

    The growth in the size of left tackles means that pass-rushers have to get bigger as well. Players like Tully Banta-Cain or Rosevelt Colvin are just too small in build for my liking. Elvis Dumervil may only be 5'11 but he came out of college at 250lbs. LaMarr Woodley is 265lbs, Brian Orakpo is 260lbs, DeMarcus Ware is 260lbs.

    OLB - draftee/Banta-Cain, backup= Ninkovich
    DE - Wright, backup = Pryor
    NT - Wilfork, backup = Brace
    DE - Warren
    OLB - draftee/Burgess, backup = Crable (yes, really)

    Passing downs - Wright/Pryor/Banta-Cain/draftee/draftee.

    We could do with another 3-4 DE but Green is too expensive to re-sign for my liking and I don't see much in the way of talent in the draft. I'd like us to take a 5th rounder as a developmental prospect, maybe a small-schooler with prototype build.
     
  17. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So, in order to make this work
    1) Wright needs to be a starter at DE instead of his more natural DT position.
    2) Pryor needs to be the backup DT instead of his more natural DT position.
    3) Draft TWO starting OLB's
    4) re-sign Banta-Cain and Burgess as backups.
    5) Count on Crable.

    It seems to be a lot more straightforward to draft a DE and an OLB.


     
  18. ayjackson

    ayjackson Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    We are below elite all over the field, why would DE be our biggest need. As mayo indicated, Wright at DE is better than relative to his position than what we currently have at OLB and elsewhere.
     
  19. BradyManny

    BradyManny Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Very true, I can't argue with that.
     
  20. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The fact that Wright is a DT shouldn't affect anyone. Both miguel and patriots.com list Wright as a DT.

    In any case, given that we've lost Seymour, and have not re-signed Green and Burgess, it does seem the DE is more important than most needs.

     
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