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4th and 2 on the their own 30 - Discuss it here [merged 10x]


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Re: Why going for it was right

You punt the ball in that situation. This is a no brainer. You are up by 6, you punt the ball deep and force them to drive the length of the field and score a TD in under 2 minutes.

This ain't a video game, this is NFL football.
 
Re: Why going for it was right

6O% is barely better than a coin flip.

How many variables are involved in a seventy yard drive compared to a 28? Did you compute that? also, figure how many short plays a defense can give up and hold when the offense must score a touchdown in that eventy yards.

If you look at the site the OP linked to, you'll see that, yes, they did consider that.

And you're also misquoting the numbers. The 60% is the chance that they convert, and therefore win the game.

Also, as far as the bus metaphor goes, last I checked, no one's life was actually on the line.
 
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Re: Why going for it was right

facing 4th and 2, the Pats had about a 60% of getting the first down. This of course would have ended the game. 60% is a historical league average, you can quibble with this figure up or down if you want, but thats around the ballpark % chance the Pats make it.

so if they will convert 60% of the time, then going for it gives them a Win Probability of at least 60%. I say "at least" b/c even if the fail to convert, the Pats still have a chance of stopping the Colts from the 30. what % is that? the league average in this situation is around 53%, though I think we would agree that the Colts vs our defensive had a much higher % chance of scoring. call it...75% ? that means 25% of the time, even when we don't get the first down, we win by stopping the Colts.

so,

(0.60 * 1) + (0.40 * (1-0.75)) = 70% Win Percentage for Pats

the alternative move of course is to Punt, which on average will put the Colts right around their 34. (again, these #'s are taken from the above link).

what are the odds the Colts drive down and score now? We used 75% chance from the Pats 30, so it's obviously going to be much less from their own 34. The historical league average is 30% in this situation, but again I think it's higher than that. Call it 45%. that means the Pats have a 55% Win Probability from punting.

given those assumptions above, going for it leads to pats victories 70% of the time while punting leads to victories 55% of the time. you can play around with those #'s yourself and change the assumptions, but you would need to plug in some weird #'s to come to a conclusion that says punting is the right move.

2nd point: in terms of the decision making process, the results don't matter. the decision to punt or not punt is not made correct or incorrect by what happens afterwards. to call decisions "right" or "wrong" based solely on the results is horribly incorrect "analysis". sometimes Faulk gets to the 30, sometimes he doesn't, but either way going for it was right. sometimes the result is going to look bad, sometimes it won't. you need to divorce yourself from the results if you want to learn how to make the best decision.

i honestly think BB had flashbacks of 2006 when Manning led his team down the entire length of the field for the game winning TD with a few minutes left. He simply did not want that to happen again and if he was going to lose it would be on offense.
 
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Re: Why going for it was right

Our chances to win the game GREATLY increase if we punt the ball away and give Manning a long field to work with.

Conclusive statements are not helpful in this debate. BB, who knows football and knows his team better than you, disagrees. The mathematics of the decision have already been posted, but apparently the only thing that matters are your unsupported, conclusive statements. How did that long field work out on the previous 2 Td drives, or the 2006 AFCCG, or any number of Manning 4th quarter comebacks? Sorry, but I'll take our offense getting 2 yards over our depleted D stopping manning at the end of the game every single time. The math supports it and BB's decision supports it. Now, you change the facts and everything changes. If we had a pass rush, for example, it may have been the wrong decision.
 
Re: Why going for it was right

If I was being chased by an axe-wielding murderer on my side of the street, yes.

How is letting a punter who had averaged over 50 per punt that game make the other team march down the field 70 yards like that?

We had a 40% chance of handing the ball to Peyton on our 28 with timeouts and four downs. 40% is a lot.
 
Re: Why going for it was right

And you're also misquoting the numbers. The 60% is the chance that they convert, and therefore win the game.
QUOTE]

What? they didn't convert, handed the ball over and lost the game.

Whatis your point? They win the game if the colts fail to march 70 yards to, they weren't required to take a real gamble to have a good chance of winning.
 
Re: Why going for it was right

You punt the ball in that situation. This is a no brainer. You are up by 6, you punt the ball deep and force them to drive the length of the field and score a TD in under 2 minutes.

This ain't a video game, this is NFL football.

I'm also 100% sure you didn't read my post

look if you want to be angry and follow the herd of the media idiots, then go ahead. if you want to be intelligent, learn something, and get insight into why BB did what he did and why it was correct, then read about the % chance of various outcomes

BB probably knows more about football than anyone who has ever lived. trust him over Peter King or trite nonsense media cliches, for the love of god
 
Re: Why going for it was right

And you're also misquoting the numbers. The 60% is the chance that they convert, and therefore win the game.
QUOTE]

What? they didn't convert, handed the ball over and lost the game.

Whatis your point? They win the game if the colts fail to march 70 yards to, they weren't required to take a real gamble to have a good chance of winning.

Ray read the OP. all the way through. then post the points you disagree with.
 
Re: Why going for it was right

facing 4th and 2, the Pats had about a 60% of getting the first down. This of course would have ended the game. 60% is a historical league average, you can quibble with this figure up or down if you want, but thats around the ballpark % chance the Pats make it.

so if they will convert 60% of the time, then going for it gives them a Win Probability of at least 60%. I say "at least" b/c even if the fail to convert, the Pats still have a chance of stopping the Colts from the 30. what % is that? the league average in this situation is around 53%, though I think we would agree that the Colts vs our defensive had a much higher % chance of scoring. call it...75% ? that means 25% of the time, even when we don't get the first down, we win by stopping the Colts.

so,

(0.60 * 1) + (0.40 * (1-0.75)) = 70% Win Percentage for Pats

the alternative move of course is to Punt, which on average will put the Colts right around their 34. (again, these #'s are taken from the above link).

what are the odds the Colts drive down and score now? We used 75% chance from the Pats 30, so it's obviously going to be much less from their own 34. The historical league average is 30% in this situation, but again I think it's higher than that. Call it 45%. that means the Pats have a 55% Win Probability from punting.

given those assumptions above, going for it leads to pats victories 70% of the time while punting leads to victories 55% of the time. you can play around with those #'s yourself and change the assumptions, but you would need to plug in some weird #'s to come to a conclusion that says punting is the right move.

2nd point: in terms of the decision making process, the results don't matter. the decision to punt or not punt is not made correct or incorrect by what happens afterwards. to call decisions "right" or "wrong" based solely on the results is horribly incorrect "analysis". sometimes Faulk gets to the 30, sometimes he doesn't, but either way going for it was right. sometimes the result is going to look bad, sometimes it won't. you need to divorce yourself from the results if you want to learn how to make the best decision.

I think that analysis is far too simplistic and dumbs down the decision that Belichick actually made, which, BTW, I think was the right decision. He made a SITUATION SPECIFIC decision to the effect that his Defense couldn't stop Peyton Manning at that time in that game under those specific circumstances. It had nothing to do with a flawed, generic model.

As you read what I write below and if you doubt what I'm saying, ask yourself this question: if the score of the game and the position on the field and the time on the clock and the timeouts remaining were all exactly the same but the QB and Team on the other side of the ball were Trent Edwards and the Bills, would Belichick have gone for it or punted? The model to which you link us suggests that he should have gone for it. Do you really think that would have been the right decision? Be honest. This was a situation-specific decision. The model you cite is not robust enough to be used to make that decision, one way or the other.

I followed your link. It's pretty amateurish stuff. The statistical error is called the "flaw of averages." It's based on a generic model of any NFL team and doesn't take into account the game circumstances (other than the yard line and score) and certainly doesn't take into account the players on the field. In other words, the model is basically useless unless you're programming a video game. The fact that it suggests that Belichick made the right decision is blind luck and has nothing to do with the circumstances BB was facing last night.

Just because a few guys have turned it into a web page and call it "Advanced NFL Stats" doesn't make it right. What you end up with is a mean/average with no indication of the distribution around it. That's the only way even a well-designed model can guide this kind of decision.

In the case of this "model," there is presumably a .60P of gaining 1.5 yards. Fine, but that really tells us nothing and if the SD is anything more than .1 yards, it really doesn't help you decide at all, and I'm pretty sure the SD is in the range of .50--.75 yards. What the model doesn't try to consider is what happens when the Colts get the ball. How long will it take them to score from the 30, if indeed they score.

The model then says that there is a .30P that the Colts score from their 38 after a punt. That part of the model muddles two different sets of uncertainties; one, where the Colts actually get the Ball. The Average is the 38. Once again, what is the SD? Then, from the 38, there's a .30P that they score. Once again, what is the SD? What does a distribution of likely outcomes look like, based on real data from THESE TWO TEAMS.

Finally, even if you Monte Carlo a few hundred thousand scenarios and it shows the Pats better off within reason, the only way that model could possible be useful is if it's robust enough to account for the propensities of those players on that field at that point in the game.

All of that said, I think that the Computer in Belichick's head decided that the risks of going for it outweighed the risks of punting, but for entirely different reasons.

BTW, their models yesterday predicted the following:
.72 likely that the Jets would win.
.74 that the Steelers would win
.83 that the Broncos would win
.65 that Oakland would win
.54 that Dallas would win.

They also called some games right, but really did no better than Vegas bettors.
 
Re: Why going for it was right

How is letting a punter who had averaged over 50 per punt that game make the other team march down the field 70 yards like that?

We had a 40% chance of handing the ball to Peyton on our 28 with timeouts and four downs. 40% is a lot.

it's only a lot compared to alternative situations. we also had a 60% chance of winning the game outright. 60% is a lot.
 
Re: Why going for it was right

I think that analysis is far too simplistic and dumbs down the decision that Belichick actually made, which, BTW, I think was the right decision. He made a SITUATION SPECIFIC decision to the effect that his Defense couldn't stop Peyton Manning at that time in that game under those specific circumstances. It had nothing to do with a flawed, generic model.

As you read what I write below and if you doubt what I'm saying, ask yourself this question: if the score of the game and the position on the field and the time on the clock and the timeouts remaining were all exactly the same but the QB and Team on the other side of the ball were Trent Edwards and the Bills, would Belichick have gone for it or punted? The model to which you link us suggests that he should have gone for it. Do you really think that would have been the right decision? Be honest. This was a situation-specific decision. The model you cite is not robust enough to be used to make that decision, one way or the other.

I followed your link. It's pretty amateurish stuff. The statistical error is called the "flaw of averages." It's based on a generic model of any NFL team and doesn't take into account the game circumstances (other than the yard line and score) and certainly doesn't take into account the players on the field. In other words, the model is basically useless unless you're programming a video game. The fact that it suggests that Belichick made the right decision is blind luck and has nothing to do with the circumstances BB was facing last night.

Just because a few guys have turned it into a web page and call it "Advanced NFL Stats" doesn't make it right. What you end up with is a mean/average with no indication of the distribution around it. That's the only way even a well-designed model can guide this kind of decision.

In the case of this "model," there is presumably a .60P of gaining 1.5 yards. Fine, but that really tells us nothing and if the SD is anything more than .1 yards, it really doesn't help you decide at all, and I'm pretty sure the SD is in the range of .50--.75 yards. What the model doesn't try to consider is what happens when the Colts get the ball. How long will it take them to score from the 30, if indeed they score.

The model then says that there is a .30P that the Colts score from their 38 after a punt. That part of the model muddles two different sets of uncertainties; one, where the Colts actually get the Ball. The Average is the 38. Once again, what is the SD? Then, from the 38, there's a .30P that they score. Once again, what is the SD? What does a distribution of likely outcomes look like, based on real data from THESE TWO TEAMS.

Finally, even if you Monte Carlo a few hundred thousand scenarios and it shows the Pats better off within reason, the only way that model could possible be useful is if it's robust enough to account for the propensities of those players on that field at that point in the game.

All of that said, I think that the Computer in Belichick's head decided that the risks of going for it outweighed the risks of punting, but for entirely different reasons.

look, there are 3 relevant #'s you need to try to predict:

% chance the Pats make that 4th down
% chance the Colts score from the 30
% chance the Colts score if you punt

what do you think these are?

BTW, their models yesterday predicted the following:
.72 likely that the Jets would win.
.74 that the Steelers would win
.83 that the Broncos would win
.65 that Oakland would win
.54 that Dallas would win.

They also called some games right, but really did no better than Vegas bettors.

I agree that their generic #'s are wrong, and thats why I changed them in my example in the OP. but they would have to be REALLY, REALLY wrong in this situation for punting to be right. like, "unreasonably, don't pass the smell test wrong". see above, give me what you think the actual #'s are in the 3 relevant situations
 
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Re: Why going for it was right

I'm also 100% sure you didn't read my post

look if you want to be angry and follow the herd of the media idiots, then go ahead. if you want to be intelligent, learn something, and get insight into why BB did what he did and why it was correct, then read about the % chance of various outcomes

BB probably knows more about football than anyone who has ever lived. trust him over Peter King or trite nonsense media cliches, for the love of god

I read your post, I just think it is BS. What are these %'s based on? They are numbers that have no reflection on the actul game played last night, they are numbers pulled out of games in general. Here is the thing though, each game stands on its own, you can't just assume that since the odds are in your favor due to chance based on the aggregate of the past that things will go well.

You punt the ball, force them to drive the ball 70 yards in under 2 minutes.

That is football 101. Belichick outsmarted himself and that is the truth of the matter. I haven't read King this morning.
 
re: 4th and 2 on the their own 30 - Discuss it here (Merged 9X)

You have a chance to end the game with 2 yds from your HOF QB and juggernaut offense. On the opposing sideline is another HOF QB and his own unstoppable offense waiting for a chance to tear up your defense for the 3rd time this quarter; their running game is averaging almost 8 yards a crack in the quarter as well. You're in a hostile environment and you've lost several key defenders. Is it really that surprising a decision?

I'm as big of a BB fan as anyone. But this was indefensible. We all understand what he was thinking, but he got caught up in the game. It's clear by the play calling that he did not make the decision to go for it until after the 3rd down botched play.

Set aside our rose colored glasses for a minute. If Rex Ryan did this you'd be killing him for it. It was a bad move. You make Manning go 70 yards. All it takes is one holding penalty or bad throw and you win. That's setting aside the defense just stepping up and making 4 big stops in a row.
 
Re: Why going for it was right

I read your post, I just think it is BS. What are these %'s based on? They are numbers that have no reflection on the actul game played last night, they are numbers pulled out of games in general. .

fine, what do YOU THINK THEY ARE? give me the probabilities you think are correct. ballpark is fine.

% chance Pats make the 1st down
% chance Colts score from our 30
% chance Colts score after we punt

That is football 101.

conventional wisdom is often wrong
 
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Re: Why going for it was right

The same guy who made the decision to go for it made the decision to play prevent on the last couple of Colts drives...

He also made the decision to go for it early in the season. And as I recall he did so because that week he had hammered on them that some time in the season they would be in a situation where they HAD TO CONVERT.

As someone else said in another thread on another site, if you are going to go for it on 4th down in that particular situation, you better have made that decision prior to the first down. That saves you two time outs at the very least and should dictate better initial playcalling or selection designed to ensure at the very least you burn more clock or force your opponent to use all his remaining TO's. You should also have very good reason to believe you can convert. Trouble is we aren't a team who can count on 3 yards a crack from the run when we have to, and last night we were down to only two backs in a running game that chooses not to emply a fullback, neither of which is a push the pile option. So we did what we do and it almost worked save for a horrendous spot on a bobble that couldn't be seen by the guy who called it, the Colts 12th man, a guy whose existence and presence you must always account for.

Of course the other alternative was trusting your defense. And if we/he still can't do that then we haven't really changed the thing that's been dogging this team for the last couple of seasons.

And as an aside, it wouldn't hurt to upgrade at punter. If the decision to punt would have realistically left the Colts with a 70 yard field to traverse, Bill might have been more inclined to punt. I doubt Hansen would have backed the Colts up much beyond midfield, and Bill knows that. But again that's a roster spot BB has chosen to stand pat on despite historically being a field position guy...

I don't think going for it considering all the circumstances was any more right or wrong than punting, unfortunately. But given that, discretion might have been the better part of valor.
 
Re: Why going for it was right

Conclusive statements are not helpful in this debate. BB, who knows football and knows his team better than you, disagrees. The mathematics of the decision have already been posted, but apparently the only thing that matters are your unsupported, conclusive statements. How did that long field work out on the previous 2 Td drives, or the 2006 AFCCG, or any number of Manning 4th quarter comebacks? Sorry, but I'll take our offense getting 2 yards over our depleted D stopping manning at the end of the game every single time. The math supports it and BB's decision supports it. Now, you change the facts and everything changes. If we had a pass rush, for example, it may have been the wrong decision.

This isn't a debate. We saw how BB's decision ended and it still ended in a loss. Mathematics or not, we had no timesouts left to challenge should anything (such as a bad spot) happen. At that point, the decision should have clearly been to punt the ball and give Manning a long field to work with. Now, if you can make a strong argument that shows that Manning's chances to score from 70-80 yards out were just as good, if not better than his chances to score from 25 yards out, then I'll listen. As of right now, however, no argument exists. The fact of the matter is that the defense did a good enough job against Manning. He threw up two ducks and both got picked off. On the drive before that, the Colts were only in striking position because of an iffy pass interference call that Darius Butler still had extremely good position on.

On top of all of this, using the 2006 AFCCG to support your argument is rather ridiculous considering the fact that we had completely different personnel in there for this game. Could Manning have driven 80 yards for the score? Sure. Were the chances of him doing so equally as good, if not better, than his chances to score from 25-30 yards out? Absolutely not.
 
Re: Why going for it was right

I read your post, I just think it is BS. What are these %'s based on? They are numbers that have no reflection on the actul game played last night, they are numbers pulled out of games in general. Here is the thing though, each game stands on its own, you can't just assume that since the odds are in your favor due to chance based on the aggregate of the past that things will go well.

You punt the ball, force them to drive the ball 70 yards in under 2 minutes.

That is football 101. Belichick outsmarted himself and that is the truth of the matter. I haven't read King this morning.

I agree with you, but given the game situation (Brady and the Pats had 475 yards against the Colts, and the D was gassed as Manning had twice scored TDs in the qtr with 2 minutes to play with) then the variables you mention actually reinforce Belichick's decision rather than the reverse.
 
Re: Why going for it was right

Posted this earlier and it got folded into a gargantuan thread...

Defending Belichick’s Fourth-Down Decision - The Fifth Down Blog - NYTimes.com

With 2:08 left and the Colts with only one timeout, a successful 4th-and-2 conversion wins the game for all practical purposes. A conversion on 4th-and-2 would be successful 60 percent of the time. Historically, in a situation with 2:00 left and needing a TD to either win or tie, teams get the TD 53 percent of the time from that field position. The total win probability for the 4th-down conversion attempt would therefore be:

(0.60 * 1) + (0.40 * (1-0.53)) = 0.79 WP (WP stands for win probability)

A punt from the 28 typically nets 38 yards, starting the Colts at their 34. Teams historically get the TD 30 percent of the time in that situation. So the punt gives the Pats about a 0.70 WP.
 
re: 4th and 2 on the their own 30 - Discuss it here (Merged 9X)

You have a chance to end the game with 2 yds from your HOF QB and juggernaut offense. On the opposing sideline is another HOF QB and his own unstoppable offense waiting for a chance to tear up your defense for the 3rd time this quarter; their running game is averaging almost 8 yards a crack in the quarter as well. You're in a hostile environment and you've lost several key defenders. Is it really that surprising a decision?

Yes. It is. The chances of Manning scoring a game winning TD from 70-80 yards out are just not as good as his chances from 25-30 yards out. This isn't really all that hard to understand.
 
Re: Why going for it was right

At that point, the decision should have clearly been to punt the ball and give Manning a long field to work with.

people keep saying this, and giving zero evidence. your evidence seems to be "punting is right b/c I say so"

Now, if you can make a strong argument that shows that Manning's chances to score from 70-80 yards out were just as good, if not better than his chances to score from 25 yards out, then I'll listen.

nobody would ever say that, nor do they need to. read my op.
 
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