2011 Offseason

[SyN65]

Which, incidentally I'm sure, were the two games against the Rams and the Seahawks.

Irrelevant to me. The point is he's helping the Cowboys.

Last 3 games:

25 carries 253 yds 10.1 AVG
8 carries 74 yds 9.3 AVG
22 carries 139 yds 6.3 AVG

No matter how you slice it he's an impact player for the Cowboys and his arrow is pointing up.

 

[Rob0729]

Overall stats aren't as important as impact to me.

Torrey Smith caught the game winning touch down last game against PITT.

Aldon Smith/Von Miller were high picks, yeah.

Murray has been playing great in every game he gets a lot of carries.

Peterson WON two games for the Cardinals with Punt returns for TDs.

You do not judge draft picks on how they perform in individual games or moments. Just because Torrey Smith caught the winning TD in the Pitt game doesn't mean he will be a productive WR for his career (which is why you select a WR high). Peterson was a first rounder and if he turns into an excellent punt returner and mediocre CB, he is a bad pick.

I too judge players on impact, but you need to judge them on continual impact and not a handful or plays or one or two games. If some of plays you highlighted end up being the highlight of those players' career, they will be bad draft picks. If they build on those momements and have many plays like those throughout their careers, then they won't.

Impact to the team is more than a handful of plays. Otherwise, Bethel Johnson would have been an excellent pick with some key kick returns for TDs.

 

[JackBauer]

Irrelevant to me. The point is he's helping the Cowboys.

Last 3 games:

25 carries 253 yds 10.1 AVG
8 carries 74 yds 9.3 AVG
22 carries 139 yds 6.3 AVG

No matter how you slice it he's an impact player for the Cowboys and his arrow is pointing up.

And that's similarly irrelevant to me. You said he was a future star. Jury's still out on that question.

 

[IllegalContact]

So Ted Washington blows your theory out of the water, but you want to ignore it instead of admitting you are wrong.

As for the rookie missing an entire season argument, you are grasping. No two injuries are alike. Gronkowski had an excellent 2010 rookie season after missing the entire 2009 season in college. How is that much different than Dowling missing 14 games this season? Because missing an entire season in college is different than missing the rookie year.

The fact the three players you listed were all projects especially Tate and Crable. Crable had too skinny legs for the NFL and never built it up because of back to back ACLs. All three had far worse injuries than what Dowling had (Dowling's doesn't require surgery and the other three had ACL replacements).

no.....washington is the exception to my theory........at a position where the focus of the job is extremely narrow......

dowling is a bust....stop spinning......and your gronkowski analogy is irrelevant

find me a successful NFL player who missed their rookie season

 

[Rob0729]

Irrelevant to me. The point is he's helping the Cowboys.

Last 3 games:

25 carries 253 yds 10.1 AVG
8 carries 74 yds 9.3 AVG
22 carries 139 yds 6.3 AVG

No matter how you slice it he's an impact player for the Cowboys and his arrow is pointing up.

He has done well the last three week. Let's see him over time after teams get a little more film on him. I remember after the playoffs in the 2009 season, everyone thought Shonn Greene was going to be a 1300-1500 yard RB after two and a half very good games. He hasn't broken a 1,000 yards yet in a season.

Murray could be the second coming of Emmitt Smith or he could wash out. Remember everyone came into this season expecting McCourty to be an elite CB, but he took a step back and he had nearly a season of great production.

 

[IllegalContact]

He has done well the last three week. Let's see him over time after teams get a little more film on him. I remember after the playoffs in the 2009 season, everyone thought Shonn Greene was going to be a 1300-1500 yard RB after two and a half very good games. He hasn't broken a 1,000 yards yet in a season.

who is everyone? I don't remember anyone saying that about greene.....

 

[Rob0729]

no.....washington is the exception to my theory........at a position where the focus of the job is extremely narrow......

dowling is a bust....stop spinning......and your gronkowski analogy is irrelevant

find me a successful NFL player who missed their rookie season

1.) Washington is an exception to your theory because you made your theory before you knew he was an exception. The Pats decided to switch to a 3-4 without a legitimate NT in 2003 which is arguably the most important position. Belichick had to scramble to find someone and traded for Washington.

2.) The fact of the matter is Waters is exactly what Belichick used to do during the Super Bowl seasons and scour the waiver wire for diamonds in the rough after cutdown day. In fact, Joe Andruzzi who anchored the LG position for three Super Bowls was signed on September 9, 2000. I guess he is another exception to the rule.

3.) Dowling is not a bust. No rookie is a bust unless he is cut. Until we see how Dowling is over the rest of his career, you are just speculating with nothing to back it up. That isn't spin on my part, that is the facts. You are just a Chicken Little who wants to blow every injury or problem into a bigger deal than it is.

 

[Rob0729]

who is everyone? I don't remember anyone saying that about greene.....

Go back and look at every preseason publication and predictions from major website. Everyone expected him to pick up in 2010 where Thomas Jones left off the year before.

 

[IllegalContact]

1.) Washington is an exception to your theory because you made your theory before you knew he was an exception. The Pats decided to switch to a 3-4 without a legitimate NT in 2003 which is arguably the most important position. Belichick had to scramble to find someone and traded for Washington.

2.) The fact of the matter is Waters is exactly what Belichick used to do during the Super Bowl seasons and scour the waiver wire for diamonds in the rough after cutdown day. In fact, Joe Andruzzi who anchored the LG position for three Super Bowls was signed on September 9, 2000. I guess he is another exception to the rule.

3.) Dowling is not a bust. No rookie is a bust unless he is cut. Until we see how Dowling is over the rest of his career, you are just speculating with nothing to back it up. That isn't spin on my part, that is the facts. You are just a Chicken Little who wants to blow every injury or problem into a bigger deal than it is.

1) no....my theory is better than 90% correct.......with the excpetion of washington, all other impact FA aquisitions were made early in the offseason (hamilton, pleasant, smith, vrabel, phifer, harrison, colvin, poole, traylor, compton, dillon, fauria, patten, antowain smith, moss, welker)....

what was done early this year? stroud.....what was done late? everyone else....have they worked out? really, only waters has been effective.....carter and anderson have been visible, but they have not made teh defense any better.

2) nope......there are very few late preseason additions that have made much of a difference.....it happens once in a while, but I believe you mention the only 2 difference makers in your argument......andruzzi did not anchor LG for 3 SB's as compton was the LG in 2001, and he signed early in the 2000 season so he had a whole year on a 5-11 team....is that comparable to waters who only figures to be here one year? for that fact, andruzzi didn't even play LG in 2003 as woody did

3) you make no sense here

 

[IllegalContact]

Go back and look at every preseason publication and predictions from major website. Everyone expected him to pick up in 2010 where Thomas Jones left off the year before.

uhhh......yeah.....not with the signing of tomlinson.....

 

[Rob0729]

1) no....my theory is better than 90% correct.......with the excpetion of washington, all other impact FA aquisitions were made early in the offseason (hamilton, pleasant, smith, vrabel, phifer, harrison, colvin, poole, traylor, compton, dillon, fauria, patten, antowain smith, moss, welker)....

what was done early this year? stroud.....what was done late? everyone else....have they worked out? really, only waters has been effective.....carter and anderson have been visible, but they have not made teh defense any better.

At the point, Water was signed the Pats needed depth in the interior line, not a starter. He ended up starting because he is a great talent and the Pats unfortunately had a major injury on the interior o-line early in the season. It is a fact that the Pats started this season with every offensive line starter that started on this o-line in December and January of last year. The starting RG spot was not a hole like you suggest. Waters just ended up being an added bonus that he upgraded a position that was already set.

Carter and Anderson have made the defense better. Without them, this defense would be significantly worse especially without Carter. They have made an impact.

2) nope......there are very few late preseason additions that have made much of a difference.....it happens once in a while, but I believe you mention the only 2 difference makers in your argument......andruzzi did not anchor LG for 3 SB's as compton was the LG in 2001, and he signed early in the 2000 season so he had a whole year on a 5-11 team....is that comparable to waters who only figures to be here one year? for that fact, andruzzi didn't even play LG in 2003 as woody did

Sorry, I meant Andruzzi started RG for three Super Bowls. You can play semantics here that I accidentally put a L instead of R, but it doesn't change the fact that Andruzzi was a starting guard in three Super Bowl seasons. Also, you think Vrabel is relevant who was a back up in Pittsburgh and worked his way into being a starter and not Andruzzi who did the similiar thing.

3) you make no sense here

Ok, so just hypothetically, Dowling returns next year and has a HOF career, be will always be recognized as a bust because he went on IR his rookie year? I meant draft pick, not rookie but the point stands. A draft pick is not a bust until he is cut or at least proves over several years that he is worth being cut. There is a reason why they say you can't judge a draft until after three years. Calling a rookie a bust because he goes to IR because three other rookies in the past went on IR with far severe injuries (one hit IR in back to back years with major injuries) lacks any significant proof of anything.

 

[Rob0729]

uhhh......yeah.....not with the signing of tomlinson.....

Everyone expected Tomlinson to be the change of pace/third down back and replace Greene in that role. It wasn't until Greene continued to fumble the ball that they swapped roles.

 

[Deus Irae]

Speaking as a Jets fan watching the team from the outside, that's exactly the problem. When the Pats were signing guys like Pleasant, Phifer, Hamilton, Otis Smith, etc. - guys who were average to below average starters - they were signing them to be complementary guys to a defensive core that included Richard Seymour, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy (replaced by Harrison), Tedy Bruschi, Mike Vrable, a young Ty Warren (in 2003 & forward), a young Vince Wilfork (2004 and forward), a young Asante Samuel (2003 and forward) . . . guys who were anywhere from "above average starter" to "perennial pro bowler"

Now, you're signing the same type of player, but to join a unit that lacks that type of top end talent. Seriously, your defense has only 3 players I'd consider above average starters at their positions - Wilfork, Mayo, and McCourty, though each is significantly more than just "above average". You can get away with "plug the gap, hold the fort" veterans when the players surrounding them are excellent. You cannot do that when the players surrounding them are equally mediocre. A team of average to below average starters will deliver average to below average performance.

That Belichick is taking the same approach to free agency he did in the early 2000s, at a time when the Pats have significantly less talent in-house going into free agency than they did during those years, is an indictment of Belichick as a GM, not a defense.

Pretty much. The bottom line is that off of this defense, Wilfork is the only one who'd be a definite starter on the 2003-2004 teams (compiled together). Belichick watched the core of the defense disintegrate and failed to replenish it with top level players.

Warren/Wilfork/Seymour/McGinest
Vrabel/Bruschi/Pfifer/Colvin/Johnson
Harrison/Law/Poole/Wilson

Mayo might start, and would be in the rotation if he didn't but, realistically, 9 of the 11 positions are downgrades, many of them significant downgrades. *


* McCourty has shown the potential to crack that lineup, but his play so far this year certainly wouldn't warrant it.

 

[JetFan1]

Robo,

Sheard plays for the Browns, not the Bengals. Von Miller is an example of player that's a rookie having a good year, not a player the Patriots should have drafted. You said Belichick expected rookies would struggle.

I am trying to put this in a way that a moderator doesn't warn me. You opinions are lacking basis in fact. Also, I think you need to do some homework on which players are on which teams. Third, I don't know for sure but I don't think you see many other teams play besides the Patriots nor read about players in the league. You really can't just check out their box score every week. Richard Seymour never had more than 6 sacks in a year in college and was one of the most dominant defensive players the Patriots ever had.

Free board, make your points. But if you're going to try to match analysis with me, you need to fact check better. You need to read the prior posts. Or please put me on ignore.

LOL, this is too funny.

The Pats have never made a bad move, at least one that didn't have a Robhomer Patriot rosy spin on it...

I questioned some of the Pats strategy earlier in the year and got blasted.

The Pats, IMO, were in a prime position to draft some quality blue chip prospects. To me, with Vollmer already at RT, why did they reach and draft another RT, and a player that many thought the Pats took too early? Especially with players they NEEDED on defense available at the DL and DB positions?

The Patriots draft success or lack thereof could set them back a couple of years. Add the fact that they never make big moves in FA, Pats fans should be upset when Belichick is having to patch a roster together with the likes of Bryan Waters, Shaun Ellis, and Haynesworth after accruing so many draft picks in recent years and only winding up releasing them after only a couple of years.

 

[JetFan1]

Everyone expected Tomlinson to be the change of pace/third down back and replace Greene in that role. It wasn't until Greene continued to fumble the ball that they swapped roles.

You're wrong, Greene was a 2nd year player, and Tomlinson before his first year with the Jets changed his off-season regiment and came to camp in great shape showing a lot of bounce in his legs. The Jets were also enamored with how effective Green was in the playoffs in Ryan's first year as a back-up to Thomas Jones, they wanted that effect again with LT starting, and while Green was still developing. Greene's biggest issues coming out of college was his pass receiving ability, he's now developed the skill and was ready for a bigger role.

 

[JetFan1]

Ok, so just hypothetically, Dowling returns next year and has a HOF career, be will always be recognized as a bust because he went on IR his rookie year? I meant draft pick, not rookie but the point stands. A draft pick is not a bust until he is cut or at least proves over several years that he is worth being cut. There is a reason why they say you can't judge a draft until after three years. Calling a rookie a bust because he goes to IR because three other rookies in the past went on IR with far severe injuries (one hit IR in back to back years with major injuries) lacks any significant proof of anything.

Wow, that is a real stretch. Calling a rookie a bust is too soon, but considering the Patriots recent history with their draft picks, he hasn't shown anything that deserves anything that would make someone thing differently.

 

[NEP4Life]

At least 4 of the 03-04 defensive starters were first round picks (Law, McGinest, Seymour, Warren); Sey and Willie were top-10 picks.

Sometimes talent matters more than "value", at least if the goal is to win championships.

Added: Also, Phifer was a high second round pick (31st overall, according to Pro Football Reference).

 

[Rob0729]

Wow, that is a real stretch. Calling a rookie a bust is too soon, but considering the Patriots recent history with their draft picks, he hasn't shown anything that deserves anything that would make someone thing differently.

Well, I wouldn't expect you to handle a hypothetical. I used an extreme to show how ridiculous his point was that calling a rookie a bust after one season. I think Dowling could be a productive player for this team. I don't think he will ever be a HOFer.

 

[Darolyn72]

http://www.patriotsdaily.com/2011/11/10-critical-mistakes-the-new-england-patriots-have-made-in-2011/

 

[JackBauer]

To me, with Vollmer already at RT, why did they reach and draft another RT

I'll take a clue for $100, Alex.

Hint: it probably has something to do with the fact that he wasn't drafted to play RT.