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2011 Offseason

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by cstjohn17, Nov 9, 2011.

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  1. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I had really high hopes for this offseason, the Patriots were loaded with draft picks and cap space. Some additional youth and depth and a difference maker on defense in the front seven and this team was ready to roll.

    Instead they went in the opposite direction, adding offensive draft picks and a bunch of old retreads on defense.

    Not only did they take a huge gamble this year but they set back the overall rebuilding process.

    Very disappointing.
  2. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Gotta agree on all of it, the highlighted part is especially sad. I can't stand the thought of taking more DB's. Many a draft pick was used on this position over the last few years, only to be cut later.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  3. PassMeABruschi

    PassMeABruschi Rookie

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    what we should do is trade Brady, and start Hoyer.
  4. Wilfork#75

    Wilfork#75 Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Is it too late to suck for Luck?
  5. Sivy

    Sivy Rookie

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    These threads are ok but moss threads aren't?
  6. Wilfork#75

    Wilfork#75 Rookie

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    Its especially sad when we look back at that first preseason game when everything looked so promising. The chance of moving to an attacking, aggressive 4-3 defence with a dominating D-line. Unfortunately we kept the same scheme with a different front, and similar results to previous years. This season definitely isn't over yet, but there are obviously some things that really need to be addressed in the offseason.
  7. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    There isn't a move that they made that I wasn't excited about, so it's hard for me to question anything they did now. Is it disappointing? Sure. But all the moves were understandable and made sense.
  8. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The lockout, having free agency take place after the draft, free agency taking place during training camp, and free agency taking place within just a couple days of finding out what the cap was all wreaked havoc on any offseason plans. Other than Mathias Kiwanuka and Ray Edwards, I can't recall any free agents on defense that the Pats in hindsight possibly should have made a bigger push to sign.

    However, it was both disappointing and confusing that the Pats did not acquire one (if not two) of several players on defense in the draft, such as Ryan Kerrigan (yes, I realize he was taken before the Pats first 1st round pick), Adrian Clayborn, Cameron Jordan, Jabaal Sheard, Brooks Reed, etc. And while I can completely understand the need to draft a running back, using two picks in the first three rounds and in the top 75 overall on that position certainly deserves questioning.
  9. Wilfork#75

    Wilfork#75 Rookie

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    After some time to cool down after the draft I came to like a lot of the Pats picks from the draft, even Mallet, but that is one that I can't and never will be able to understand. You can talk about drafting for value and taking the best guy available and all that stuff but it is all garbage. You draft to make you team better, and a 3rd and 4th RB doesn't do that. I like both guys individually, but back to back in the 2nd and 3rd, to me is idiotic. Especially with the way the Pats use RB's.
  10. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I was Shocked, that the team didn't take an OLB or DE when this was a great year for D-lineman. Especially since the team hasn't had a pass rush in years, it was a real area of need.

    Afterwards i like the Solder pick but trading the second 1st rounder to a team (NO) that could end up in the same place in the draft i couldn't understand, there were still a number of quality D Lineman still on the board.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  11. PassMeABruschi

    PassMeABruschi Rookie

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    of course not...maybe put on a Phins jersey as well, to complete the transformation
  12. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The one reason I think you can defend those picks, though, is here was the RB draft chart when the draft started:

    Green-Ellis (RFA for 2011)
    Woodhead (signed through 2012)

    That's it.
  13. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Several points:

    1.) People focus on the negative signing, but don't want to credit the good ones. Guys like Brian Waters, Andre Carter, and Mak Anderson have exceeded expectations.

    2.) The lockout has hurt a lot of teams in a rebuilding/reload process. Look at the Dream Team... ummm... Eagles, they are 3-5 right now even though no other team was more active in assembling talent to make a Super Bowl run this year. Other teams in the same boat with high expectations and low results include the Rams, Chargers, and Falcons. This is a freak year because of the lockout.

    3.) I think Belichick approached the draft thinking that most rookies won't produce this year. Overall it has been a down year for rookies. Few rookies stand out as special. I think Belichick used this draft as a developmental draft.

    4.) As for taking two RBs in the the second and third round, I like that better than taking Mark Ingram in the first like many people wanted. Ingram has yet to stand out and the value of the 28th pick is far more than what they spent on Ridley and Vereen.

    5.) Some of the draft picks listed haven't really done much. Cameron Jordan has 22 tackles and 0 sacks. Adrian Clayborn has 15 tackles, 3 sacks, and a forced fumble (decent, but not spectacular). Brooks Reed has 5 tackles and two sacks. Jabaal Sheard has 27 tackles, 2.5 sacks, and two forced fumbles. These guys are not producing at a rate that you think they are going to be anything special as of yet. It is their rookie season so they could break out, but I don't think I look at any of these guys and remotely start another "the Pats could have had Clay Matthews" type of argument.
  14. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Those are the picks I hated the most. Sure they needed RBs but they are basically a dime a dozen. Either elite or average. They could have stocked the shelves with a series of second rate veterans. Better to have old washed at players at RB than defensive line.
  15. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am NOT disappointing by any of the off-season moves other than the cutting of Meriweather and Sanders before we knew that there replacements would work out.
    =======================================
    FRONT SEVEN
    Folks are whining about defensive line and OLB. The defense was playing reasonable well for the last half of 2010, among the leaders in points allowed. Belichick chose to improve this group in free agency. He has done so. They have played well. Carter and Anderson are significant improvements over Banta-Cain and Moore.

    To say that the rebuilding process is delayed is ridiculous. Love, Deaderick, Fletcher, and Spikes are all fine players and have been playing very well. Brace could still work out.
    ====================================
    CORNER
    We have two young starters at corner (who played well last year and are OK this year), and a third on IR who looked good when he played. It is difficult to see that rebuilding has been delayed. Also, Molden beat out Butler fo a backup corne spot.
    =====================================
    SAFETY
    Belichick believes in his youngsters: Chung, Barrett and Brown. He brought in Ihedigbo, a special teamer who has also played OK at safety. This is hardy a failure to rebuild. It is an example of mis-evaluation and rebuilding too fast. Sanders should still be on the team.






  16. Wilfork#75

    Wilfork#75 Rookie

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    I understand they needed to add two guys to the roster, but my problem is adding guys so high. I would have prefered Jamie Harper in the 4th or 5th round and an UDFA or a vet FA.

    BJGE- UDFA
    Woodhead- UDFA



    I agree that Carter, Anderson and Waters have been great this season and I hope they are on the roster next season. But you have to be a little disapointed because there was so much potential there in the preseason. And I agree, I wouldn't have liked Ingram in the first at all. I can't criticize BB's draft trades, when it comes to maneuvering the draft board there is nobody better. He puts this team in the best position to draft the most talent to help the team. Where he has fallen short though is actually identifying that talent. While there wasn't any particular player that I wanted at the picks they selected Vereen or Ridley, my dislike for the picks is a basic phylisophical disagreement with the selections at that point.
  17. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    except that the 'good' signings of waters, carter, and anderson are side effects of ignoring obvious needs......they had to go out and get carter and anderson because they suddenly decided they need to go 4-3......this is directly related to the drafting of failures like dowling and butler over barwin and reed who are teh starting OLB's for one of the top defenses in the NFL (texans). to me it sounds like horrible scouting and a total failure to address the biggest need on the team for 5 years running. waters was a last minute replacement for a guy who had been injury prone for the previous 5 years (neal). all 3 have worked out well, but the failure to address needs here is blatant
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  18. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    When the Pats did the same exact thing in the Super Bowl years, Belichick was a genius. Belichick signed washed up and journeyman players like David Patten, Joe Andruzzi, Roman Phifer, Bobby Hamilton, Anthony Pleasant, Otis Smith, Antowain Smith, etc. because of his ignoring obvious needs in the draft.

    You know what? Ted Washington was a last minute replacement for a need that wasn't fulfilled in the draft or free agency. The failure of Belichick to replace that need was blatant too. So should we not give him credit for signing Washington too.

    Also, Dowling is not a failure. At least not yet. People are spinning him into a failure, but that is all it is at this point is spin.

    People really want to spin the same strategy that Belichick has employed for years as now as some kind of flaw. Belichick employed the same strategy during the Super Bowl years as he does now. His hits and misses aren't as good as then, but the philosophy hasn't changed.
  19. Darolyn72

    Darolyn72 Banned

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    You have to excuse Robo, he doesn't watch the games. Jabaal Sheard is considered by many to be a rising star on a team with a good defense and ZERO offense. If he were a Patriot you would be extolling how great he is. Brooks Reed right now is being used as a situational pass rusher on a great defense and he's still better than anyone the Pats have. Mark Anderson has 3 garbage sacks, he barely plays.

    And if Belchick thought that the rookies wouldn't have an impact he's stupid. Because Watt, Kerrigan, Fairley, Miller, Dareus, Green, Jones, Sheard, Aldon Smith, Solder are all making impacts.

    Hey Robo, where do the Pats go now? They have no pass rusher for next season and will never spend the money to acquire one. Even if Bill finally relents and drafts one, they will be a rookie. Also, Carter is a FA, you going over pay for another guy in a contract year over 32? They have almost no young talent in the front 7.

    This organization needs to look itself in the mirror. There 2nd best player Wes Welker...unsigned. He's going to be another guy they drag through the mud for money. If I were him, I would say..CYA. I have just as much a shot at a championship somewhere else as here. The Pats still think they are the model franchise in the NFL. They aren't even the model franchise in their division right now.

    Let's see, go play for Bill, get nickled and dimed, live in Foxboro, and don't dare EVER speak your mind. Or go play in New York, spend weekends in NYC, play for a team trending up not down, let's not forget they have gone farther than us the last TWO years, and get to be yourself. Oh, and the Jets spend money. They are not trying to win every negotiation. As I said yesterday Belichick is getting to be like Sinden at the end. Dragging every player through a negotiation. No foresight. Ray Bourque, Cam Neely. They have a value....it should be giving Bruin fans flashbacks. And Sinden was once as good a talent evaluator as anyone in the NHL.

    For instance. Gronk is a special player, will the Pats lock him up early. NOPE. How about Mayo, where is his contract? The Pats gripe about Mankins, Samuel, Seymour etc. Well, if you didn't wait until the guy was able to test free agency you wouldn't have to overpay for him. The Pats could have locked Samuel up earlier, Branch earlier, Welker last year. Even Brady when Big Ben signed.

    But they won't and that's why they have become fools. Great players like Bruschi, Harrison, Troy Brown are not going to take below market deals anymore. You have 7 years to make money in this league on average. If you play in the Super Bowl every year maybe you concede a little, but when you can't offer that anymore, then its about money.

    Sorry Patsfans, this thing is going to hit the iceberg before it gets better.
  20. Wilfork#75

    Wilfork#75 Rookie

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    Isn't this part of the problem. The league has changed, we've got 3 guys on pace to break the single season passing yards record. Its a QB driven league where defences are built on pressure and turnovers, yet we are still trying to use many of the things that we used 7,8,10 years ago because we won Super Bowls with that strategy then. I love BB and there isn't any coach in the NFL I would trade him for, but could it be time for him to adapt. Is it possible that with the current state of the NFL that the two gap system is outdated? Either way I trust that BB will do what is best for this team to win.
  21. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #61 Jersey

    Excellent, level-headed post. I wish all the Chicken Littles on this board could see it.
  22. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Maybe they should just cut Gronkowski now. Since he is gone in two years anyway, why bother keeping him? :rolleyes:

    You have a point that Belichick blew it for not drafting Von Miller. He should have traded the entire draft to get to the number 1 spot to trade ahead of Denver to get Miller. Why do you constantly bring up players that Belichick have absolutely no shot at as if Belichick really whiffed on them. So when the Pats don't draft Andrew Luck in next year's draft, are you going to slam Belichick for not getting him as a replacement for Brady?

    Sheard is have a good rookie season, but rising star is a little premature. Being in the Bengals' defense, he is likely to fall off after a while like most of their defensive players over the years.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  23. randomk1

    randomk1 Rookie

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    Meh..2010 was so promising. You almost felt like a few pieces were missing from a championship team...right now the team feels like a complete mess.
  24. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The league has changed in how teams win, but teams have proven that not getting the shiny sports car free agents is still successful. The Bears got the prized free agent last year in Julius Peppers and he gave them 8 sacks which was good, but not worth the money. And they made a marquee trade the year before for Jay Cutler who hasn't worked out.

    Belichick has had some real misteps in recent years, but people are going overboard with some of the game has changed or passed him by. Look around the league and you can question a lot of moves by teams all over the league this year. No one has looked good other than Green Bay (who have some serious questions on offense and need to score 30 plus points a game to win right now) and San Fran who plays in a division where no one else has more than two wins.

    The fact of the matter is the most successful team over the last three to five years adopts a similiar strategy as Belichick. The Steelers do not pick up marquee free agents, when they do go into free agency they tend to go after people's cast offs, and they build through the draft. Granted they have been more successful in the draft in recent years, but their free agent strategy is pretty much the same as Belichick's.

    You look at the teams this year that made flash moves and they are struggling. The Dream Team is 3-5. Miami made a big move to get Reggie Bush and he has been a bust for them so far. Arizona made a big deal for Kevin Kolb who has been crappy and leading the Cards to a 2-6 record. Seattle made some big preseason moves like adding Sidney Rice and they are also 2-6. Atlanta made a big move in the draft to get Julio Jones and they have been struggling on offense.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2011
  25. SyN65

    SyN65 Rookie

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    Meh, there's plenty of rookies producing this season. Not a down year at all, actually there seems to be more rookies producing this year than I have seen the past few years.

    Cam Newton/Andy Dalton are playing great. Newton having the best rookie season...ever.

    Demarco Murray looks like a future star in the NFL.

    Receivers making impacts:

    AJ Green
    Julio Jones
    Torrey Smith

    As for defense:

    Ryan Kerrigan
    Patrick Peterson
    Adrian Clayborn
    Von Miller
    Aldon Smith
    Brooks Reed
    Marcell Dareus

    Obviously a lot are high picks but a lot are performing at a high level considering the lock out and everything. We had the ammo to get any of these guys too. (with the except of maybe people in the top 5..)
  26. SyN65

    SyN65 Rookie

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    Pretty much. The offense can hold its own but the defense has taken a massive step back from 2011...which I didn't think was possible...
  27. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    Its not the same.......when did BB pick up compton? when did he pick up washington?? colvin? harrison?.....at what point of the offseason did he pick up all of his players back then? long before training camp, that when....why? because he had a plan.....what's his plan now? change schemes in the middle of training camp? at what point did he realize he was screwed with the 3-4 and needed to chase down carter and anderson? this is nothing new....when did he chase down derrick burgess? the OLB thing has been a long-running practical joke....like I said, the best statistical defense in the NFL right now starts 2 OLB's that plenty of guys here were hoping for in recent drafts (connor barwin and brooks reed)

    his habits now are nothing like they used to be.....the only thing in common is that these guys are new to the team....

    waters was signed because once koppen went down, he realized his bench sucked.

    and yeah, dowling is a bust ........ why? because every guy like him who was drafted and then was injured most of his rookie season fell flat on their face.....tate, mckenzie, crable.......unless you can find me a list of IR'd rookies who went on to do something, he's a bust...the need was obvious, the picks were obvious......just the usual 'in BB we trust' mantra here in that they were not here because they likely didn't fit the scheme.....what scheme???? where's that scheme now?

    it seems as though nobody's minding the store anymore.

    as for the 2011 offseason, the pats went from being a young team that needed time to a team that looks like it has no future
  28. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    Future star is a bit much, at least for the body of work we've seen so far.
  29. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    in comparison to vereen, he's already in the HOF
  30. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Torrey Smith has been just ok other than one game. He has 397 yards and 4 TDs for the season and 152 yards and 3 TDs came against a bad Rams' defense.

    DeMarco Murray has had two great games (one of them near historic though). It is too early to label him a future star just yet.

    Aldon Smith and Von Miller were impossible for the Pats to get without giving up the draft and that is too much to risk.

    Patrick Peterson is not as good as you think. The Cards pass defense sucks about as bad as the Patriots (they are 29th in the league) and they give up more points (24.3 vs. 23). And the Cards have faced lesser competition. Peterson got all of his pass defenses and INTs vs. four QBs - Eli Manning, Sam Bradford, Joe Flacco, and Tavarus Jackson. Only one of those QBs are having a good year.
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