Patriots concerned about Aqib Talib's work ethic

Sweet Chin Music33 said:

If Talib is not back, then they need to do something about the secondary. For 2+ years they have looked like garbage.....they bring this guy in, and immediately they look like a respectable group.

The wonders of a guy who can cover 1 on 1.

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It wasnt just him, by a long shot. Dennard emerged as a capable starter at the same time, pushing Arrington back to nickel. Combined, they allowed McCourty to move to FS, where he was the first good one we've had in years. What you saw was the effect of improving three positions.

Either way, the Pats need 2 CBs this offseason. Maybe Talib is one of them, maybe not.

BradyFTW! said:

It wasnt just him, by a long shot. Dennard emerged as a capable starter at the same time, pushing Arrington back to nickel. Combined, they allowed McCourty to move to FS, where he was the first good one we've had in years. What you saw was the effect of improving three positions.

Either way, the Pats need 2 CBs this offseason. Maybe Talib is one of them, maybe not.

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Right. The bottom line is that Talib's very presence as a competent DB allowed a shifting in the secondary that made the group serviceable. His 1-on-1 skills alone didn't make the difference, it was the shift his skills allowed. We saw the difference, it was night and day. This is an overwhelming Achilles' Heel that must be addressed this offseason.

When Talib joined the group it looked like, for the first time in years, guys were playing their assignments moderately well. Watching the secondary play like the keystone cops for the past couple of years has made certain Pats games incredibly painful to watch.

supafly said:

When you factor in the fact that Talib played only about 1/2 of the time, you'll see that it was probably much more the shifting of the other players to their strengths than it was Talib's incredible gifts.

When you consider the fact that both McCourty and Arrington were moved from the outside, plus Moore from the slot you have 3 positional changes. Add in the fact that Patrick Chung was addition by subtraction and you now essentially have 4 new players in different positions. That is something to keep in mind when assessing Talib and his talents by themselves. Of course it'd be a lot easier to just keep him for a reasonable cost, but that isn't very likely to happen in my opinion.

Another player who can effectively play 1/2 the man coverage that Talib did would still be much better than what we've had in the two year period you are quoting, as we'd still be able to field a much better secondary and have the more aggressive scheme in the front seven.

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BradyFTW! said:

It wasnt just him, by a long shot. Dennard emerged as a capable starter at the same time, pushing Arrington back to nickel. Combined, they allowed McCourty to move to FS, where he was the first good one we've had in years. What you saw was the effect of improving three positions.

Either way, the Pats need 2 CBs this offseason. Maybe Talib is one of them, maybe not.

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Well, by factoring the positional changes you mentioned......it tells us more about the players they moved, rather than Talib's ability. The Patriots have finally, hopefully given up on McCourty at CB. He is a terrible CB. Arrington is a special teamer. He is a nickel at best. He should not be a part of the starting D-backfield.

Talib was not spectacular, but he has sound technique....and he has the ability to cover 1 on 1. Dennard did well, but how much of that was a result of Talib being on the field wide side going 1 on 1 with the other teams best receiver? I

If Talib is let go, then they need a REAL CB......and we know the recent history of drafting and signing CB's since the departure of Samuel. Brutal is an understatement. They need a CB and a SS, another position we have been hurting at in recent years. People think McCourty has played ok....well, compared to what? I view him as below average. If Talib leaves, you could argue they need a complete overhaul once again minus Dennard, who may have some promise.

Sweet Chin Music33 said:

Well, by factoring the positional changes you mentioned......it tells us more about the players they moved, rather than Talib's ability. The Patriots have finally, hopefully given up on McCourty at CB. He is a terrible CB. Arrington is a special teamer. He is a nickel at best. He should not be a part of the starting D-backfield.

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McCourty has certainly looked better at FS than at CB, but even at CB he improved from last year's dismal performance too. I don't have the exact same opinion regarding McCourty's CB skills, but that's okay because the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle of our two opinions.

One thing you may want to consider is that Arrington is much, much more effective at the star/slot position than on the outside. When he is able to cover closely to the player before the WR gets some ground on him which adds to his weakness on speed, he does a very good job of covering that WR. Keep in mind that Arrington helped to hold Victor Cruz to 4 catches for 24 total yards in last year's SB, and he is one of the better WR's in the league. We also saw him completely shut down Devon Bess in the MIA game.

Arrington should be retained for a reasonable salary due to this factor alone, not to mention the fact that he has superior knowledge of the defensive system here, which should not be taken for granted. Unless they can sign someone better for the same kind of money, I am hoping that Arrington is brought back for the slot role. If we can avoid any significant length of time seeing him on the outside in the base, that would obviously be even better...

Here is a writeup regarding that particular subject from about 6 weeks ago:

Kyle Arrington flourishes as Patriots’ nickel back - Patriots - Boston.com

And another:

Kyle Arrington Has Been Able to Excel in Slot Role Since Aqib Talib Joined Patriots | New England Patriots | NESN.com

Sweet Chin Music33 said:

If Talib leaves, you could argue they need a complete overhaul once again minus Dennard, who may have some promise.

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I don't think they need anything close to an overhaul. I think that the safety and CB positions are both ONE player away from being in the best shape they've been in for awhile. I'd say one player in the starters role, and one more in the backup role. That would be ideal. Dennard will be able to start the entire season, rather than the second half. Ditto for McCourty at FS. No more P.Chung is the 3rd aspect that is positive. We should have better depth at safety with Wilson and Gregory battling for the #3 and #4 spots, and both are better in those slots than what we've had.

We are really one halfway decent man to man CB and/or a better option alongside McCouty away from having a very capable secondary. Also keep in mind that Talib only played in about 1/2 of the snaps when the secondary looked much better through the stretch, so those changes showed us all what they are capable of, not to mention that it certainly does not solely depend on Talib alone.

Even if they can't reel in a high priced FA in the secondary, they can spend a high draft pick, have some progression from the young players they already have (Wilson, Dennard) and maybe even finally see some competition from Dowling to boot. They can also address the situation with some seasoned vets for depth and competition who will not cost nearly as much. This secondary is on the way up, and isn't playing in the soft zone scheme anymore. Of course that also goes hand in hand with our front seven, who is playing more aggressively, so hopefully that will continue.

eom said:

according to this they have about 18m, but only 41 guys signed.
a couple rfa in ****son and pitta, but they may lose about 5 guys off their defense, and they've got the flacco deal where they initially tag him at 14m.

I don't think suggs and ngata have all that much juice to squeeze, and do you think reed is looking for a 1 yr deal for 5m?

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I was just using some random examples, eom. The 5 million dollar example could be used for actual cap hit.

Reed may take something in the range of 7 million aav from BAL (obviously a lesser cap hit), whereas that may very well be comparable to N.England's 8 million aav. That's my only point.

Exactly "how" BAL may be able to free up some of their money is debatable, and I certainly am not claiming to be anything of a capologist by a long shot, but I think that it would take quite a few things to fall in place just perfectly for the Pats to have an actual shot at Ed Reed, and I am very leery about whether or not he even leaves Baltimore.

Suggs supposed cap hit is looking to be in the range of 13 million next season, so I assume they will find a way to restructure/extend somehow. Ngata is another player who has been brought up.

To be honest I would be much more excited for a safety like W.Moore, J.Byrd, or something of that nature, which would prove much more beneficial towards the future. We could even argue that an efficient CB choice in FA or the draft could be just as effective as any of these potential safety candidates, and that the position itself could be addressed through the draft and/or a lesser cost FA signing from a vet for depth/competition.

eom said:

The Tampa Bay Times says the Bucs are expected to release CB Eric Wright.
Wright signed a five-year, $38 million contract last offseason, but with his four-game PEDs suspension during the year, all of the remaining guaranteed money in his contract was voided. Wright is due $7.75 million in 2013, but he won't see that after being a contributor to one of the worst secondaries in the NFL in 2012.

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When we're trying to project these kinds of veteran free agent signings, it's rare for many to agree on the specific player, but in this case I think that a middle tiered vet may be a viable solution for increased competition. In a worst case scenario it would give us a better solution for someone to play the outside starters role in the base, which is certainly an improvement over Arrington last year.

While I don't personally have enough of a feeling about E.Wright myself, I would certainly agree with you that it will be these kinds of veteran signings that are much more likely to happen, however it would still be ideal to make a significant splash at any one of the positions of CB, S, or WR with a nice "bigger" name signing that could contribute and improve immediately.

Another guy that may be a gem in the muck could potentially be Sheldon Brown who is a seasoned vet coming off one hell of a year at Cleveland. As of late November he had not given up a TD yet through the air, compared to Joe Haden's 3 (obviously not meaning to compare the talent or upside to Haden, just showing Brown's effectiveness). He has always played aggressive man to man pass defense, so that trait from Talib could be carried over. Brown could even potentially be moved to safety, as he is 200 pounds. It's these kinds of moves where creativity may be key, instead of just throwing around money at a guy like Talib or even a one year rental of Reed.

Through about 9-10 games, he had a QB against rating of 59.9, which is absolutely insane. Again, that was in an article that I found from late Nov. For an all season total Brown ended up with a QB against of 79, which is still quite impressive. He finished the season with 3 INT, 1 sack, 1 FF, and continued a double digit passes defended rate of 10 yrs in a row....

One of the best attributes that I like from him is the fact that he is very, very durable...it's insane, he has only missed ONE game in 11 years. That alone could prove to be very useful for a position that lacks continuity throughout the season with injuries.

I'm not saying that he's the up/coming version of anyone, but I do think that he should be considered as one of those all-important seasoned vet signings that could come at a reasonable rate, and he is definitely on the free agent market.

Belichick needs an LT or Willie G. to bring the QB's eyes down in the pocket. Flacco burned the secondary even in double coverage by throwing high to Boldin...he had a clear line of sight and locked on him from the snap. THAT has to be stopped by pressure, not coverage.

We also need a coverage LB...someone who can stay with the Pittas and other TE's of the opposition.Spikes cannot do it. Neither can Mayo. Hightower ran a 4.56 for his low at the combine but I'm not ready to trust him in coverage. Maybe Fletcher is that guy.

One thing is clear,the Pats are not going all the way with a defensive front that can't pressure the QB in the playoffs.They need a playmaker, a force...a player with length and speed.

Joker said:

Belichick needs an LT or Willie G. to bring the QB's eyes down in the pocket. Flacco burned the secondary even in double coverage by throwing high to Boldin...he had a clear line of sight and locked on him from the snap. THAT has to be stopped by pressure, not coverage.

We also need a coverage LB...someone who can stay with the Pittas and other TE's of the opposition.Spikes cannot do it. Neither can Mayo. Hightower ran a 4.56 for his low at the combine but I'm not ready to trust him in coverage. Maybe Fletcher is that guy.

One thing is clear,the Pats are not going all the way with a defensive front that can't pressure the QB in the playoffs.They need a playmaker, a force...a player with length and speed.

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In a perfect world, both the front seven and the secondary get addressed on some level through the usual outlets of FA, the draft, UDFAs, cap casualties, and roster cuts.

I agree that pressure is a definite need of upgrade, however once we switched to a more aggressive style due to the play of the secondary, those 2 components made each other look better.

I hear what you're saying about Flacco, but I also wonder what could have been had Talib allowed the secondary to cover better, which in turn could allow the front seven to continue playing aggressively?

After all, it was still a 13-7 Pats lead with only 5 min left in the 3rd quarter. Despite what anyone says, this Patriot defense was making Flacco look very bad for a long time. Unfortunately, they just couldn't continue and Marquise Cole drawing the assignment of Anquan Boldin was one of the bigger reasons.

There are any number of variables that could in theory, allow the Pats to play deep into the winter again. Some being the health of guys like Gronk, the possible retainment of Welker, and the addition of a couple more key guys on both sides of the ball. Either way, I am very optimistic, and I think that we continue to see improvement.

Salva135 said:

Right. The bottom line is that Talib's very presence as a competent DB allowed a shifting in the secondary that made the group serviceable. His 1-on-1 skills alone didn't make the difference, it was the shift his skills allowed. We saw the difference, it was night and day. This is an overwhelming Achilles' Heel that must be addressed this offseason.

When Talib joined the group it looked like, for the first time in years, guys were playing their assignments moderately well. Watching the secondary play like the keystone cops for the past couple of years has made certain Pats games incredibly painful to watch.

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The point is that you'll see a similar effect anytime we have two competent outside corners who can press. Ideally 3 or 4, since injuries happen (see: AFCCG, 49ers game). Talib fits the bill, if the price is right, but if it's not, then the skillset that needs to be replaced isn't "guy who singlehandedly transformed the secondary". It's "someone who can credibly play man coverage on receivers outside the hashes".

Joker said:

Belichick needs an LT or Willie G. to bring the QB's eyes down in the pocket. Flacco burned the secondary even in double coverage by throwing high to Boldin...he had a clear line of sight and locked on him from the snap. THAT has to be stopped by pressure, not coverage.

We also need a coverage LB...someone who can stay with the Pittas and other TE's of the opposition.Spikes cannot do it. Neither can Mayo. Hightower ran a 4.56 for his low at the combine but I'm not ready to trust him in coverage. Maybe Fletcher is that guy.

One thing is clear,the Pats are not going all the way with a defensive front that can't pressure the QB in the playoffs.They need a playmaker, a force...a player with length and speed.

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I 100% agree, and I'll also add that I'm hopeful that Chandler Jones can be that guy in his 2nd year, assuming he stays somewhat healthy.

Check out Jason Pierre-Paul's stats as a rookie vs. his second year:

Jason Pierre-Paul Stats - New York Giants - ESPN

Jones was better as a rookie, even despite an injury rendering him ineffective for half of the season. If he experiences a leap that's anything even close to what JPP did, then we have our game-changing pass rusher. Which means we'll only need 2 more guys that can get to the quarterback. Hopefully Armstead can be one of them. As for the other, who knows? In the likely event that Bequette continues to not make the grade, maybe they'll kick the tires on Andre Carter again. If Belichick insists on sticking with what's available, maybe Hightower will be relied on to create pressure more. He was reasonably effective at it when given the opportunity.

Sweet Chin Music33 said:

The Patriots have finally, hopefully given up on McCourty at CB. He is a terrible CB.

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No, he isn't. He's certainly inconsistent but let's save the adjective for players who actually warrant it -- e.g. Chung is a terrible coverage safety, or Arrington has terrible closing speed.

That said, I agree he should be left at safety since they've had as much difficulty finding good players at that position as they have at cornerback. McCourty reminds me a bit of Eugene Wilson, though he could be better, and hopefully without the same proclivity for injury.

Sweet Chin Music33 said:

Well, by factoring the positional changes you mentioned......it tells us more about the players they moved, rather than Talib's ability. The Patriots have finally, hopefully given up on McCourty at CB. He is a terrible CB. Arrington is a special teamer. He is a nickel at best. He should not be a part of the starting D-backfield.

Talib was not spectacular, but he has sound technique....and he has the ability to cover 1 on 1. Dennard did well, but how much of that was a result of Talib being on the field wide side going 1 on 1 with the other teams best receiver? I

If Talib is let go, then they need a REAL CB......and we know the recent history of drafting and signing CB's since the departure of Samuel. Brutal is an understatement. They need a CB and a SS, another position we have been hurting at in recent years. People think McCourty has played ok....well, compared to what? I view him as below average. If Talib leaves, you could argue they need a complete overhaul once again minus Dennard, who may have some promise.

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Are you saying that McCourty is okay at SS (a position that he doesn't even play), okay at FS (in which case you'd be wrong) or okay at corner (2 paragraphs after you said he's a terrible corner)?

As far as Talib goes, 'sound technique' is about the last compliment that I would give him. There's a reason why he's exclusively a press corner, and that's because he's absolutely terrible in space... because he has bad technique. In press coverage, he can rely on his size to disrupt the receiver's timing, then his athleticism to stay with whoever he's guarding. Press coverage doesn't require a ton of technique (just have to make sure the WR doesn't get a clean release), and that's exactly why Talib excels at it. Not bashing on Talib; he IS a very good press corner. But it's not because of technique.

And again, to reiterate, you really couldn't be more wrong about McCourty. He's a serviceable starting CB (the anti-Talib, can only play in space, no man coverage), and an excellent FS, with superior range, athleticism, instincts, and coverage skills for the position. Whichever position he's playing, he's part of the solution, not part of the problem.

JackBauer said:

No, he isn't. He's certainly inconsistent but let's save the adjective for players who actually warrant it -- e.g. Chung is a terrible coverage safety, or Arrington has terrible closing speed.

That said, I agree he should be left at safety since they've had as much difficulty finding good players at that position as they have at cornerback. McCourty reminds me a bit of Eugene Wilson, though he could be better, and hopefully without the same proclivity for injury.

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Through three full seasons, where he's played up around the line of scrimmage a lot and has made a good number of tackles, McCourty's only had one significant injury, and it was caused by a teammate (******* Ihedigbo) on one of the most ridiculously bad plays by a safety that I've seen. I think we can safely say that McCourty did not inherit Eugene Wilson's injured-all-the-time gene.

BradyFTW! said:

Are you saying that McCourty is okay at SS (a position that he doesn't even play), okay at FS (in which case you'd be wrong) or okay at corner (2 paragraphs after you said he's a terrible corner)?

As far as Talib goes, 'sound technique' is about the last compliment that I would give him. There's a reason why he's exclusively a press corner, and that's because he's absolutely terrible in space... because he has bad technique. In press coverage, he can rely on his size to disrupt the receiver's timing, then his athleticism to stay with whoever he's guarding. Press coverage doesn't require a ton of technique (just have to make sure the WR doesn't get a clean release), and that's exactly why Talib excels at it. Not bashing on Talib; he IS a very good press corner. But it's not because of technique.

And again, to reiterate, you really couldn't be more wrong about McCourty. He's a serviceable starting CB (the anti-Talib, can only play in space, no man coverage), and an excellent FS, with superior range, athleticism, instincts, and coverage skills for the position. Whichever position he's playing, he's part of the solution, not part of the problem.

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I'd be willing to bet good money (were this possible) that if you paired McCourty the safety with McCourty the cornerback, the latter would look a lot better than he did playing with Gregory/Chung/Wilson.

BradyFTW! said:

Through three full seasons, where he's played up around the line of scrimmage a lot and has made a good number of tackles, McCourty's only had one significant injury, and it was caused by a teammate (******* Ihedigbo) on one of the most ridiculously bad plays by a safety that I've seen. I think we can safely say that McCourty did not inherit Eugene Wilson's injured-all-the-time gene.

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This is true. Tell you what, though: I'll be much more comfortable when they swap Demps for him at KR.

JackBauer said:

I'd be willing to bet good money (were this possible) that if you paired McCourty the safety with McCourty the cornerback, the latter would look a lot better than he did playing with Gregory/Chung/Wilson.

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Let's go get Jason McCourty and find out!

Seriously though, I agree. I'd also argue that McCourty at safety benefits a CB like Talib more than it benefits a CB like McCourty. Playing as much man coverage as Talib does demands some faith that the safety to the inside will have your back if the receiver makes a hard move to the inside. Having that confidence makes the corner less susceptible to double moves, which is otherwise the best way to get open against athletic man coverage.

JackBauer said:

This is true. Tell you what, though: I'll be much more comfortable when they swap Demps for him at KR.

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Me too, both for the injury risk and because McCourty isn't a very good kick returner.

Watching what Jacoby Jones did for the Ravens really drove home how valuable a home-run threat in the return game can be.

BradyFTW! said:

Me too, both for the injury risk and because McCourty isn't a very good kick returner.

Watching what Jacoby Jones did for the Ravens really drove home how valuable a home-run threat in the return game can be.

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One of several ways in which Mr. Hobbs was undervalued by a lot of the Patriots fan base.....

Hobbs was really underated. Aside from that one play he got left on an island in a certain big game he was really solid in the playoffs. I remember him keeping Reggie Wayne fairly quite in the AFCCG and making some keys stops vs the chargers in 06 and 07. Always was playing injured too. Shame injuries ended his career.

BradyFTW! said:

Are you saying that McCourty is okay at SS (a position that he doesn't even play), okay at FS (in which case you'd be wrong) or okay at corner (2 paragraphs after you said he's a terrible corner)?

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Sorry for the confusion. Ill make it simple. Hes not good at any of them.....and he does play SS as they are always rotating personnel in the backfield based on matchups.

BradyFTW! said:

As far as Talib goes, 'sound technique' is about the last compliment that I would give him. There's a reason why he's exclusively a press corner, and that's because he's absolutely terrible in space... because he has bad technique. In press coverage, he can rely on his size to disrupt the receiver's timing, then his athleticism to stay with whoever he's guarding. Press coverage doesn't require a ton of technique (just have to make sure the WR doesn't get a clean release), and that's exactly why Talib excels at it. Not bashing on Talib; he IS a very good press corner. But it's not because of technique.

And again, to reiterate, you really couldn't be more wrong about McCourty. He's a serviceable starting CB (the anti-Talib, can only play in space, no man coverage), and an excellent FS, with superior range, athleticism, instincts, and coverage skills for the position. Whichever position he's playing, he's part of the solution, not part of the problem.

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We have had a bottom 5 pass defense for the last 3 years. Mccourty has been moved all over the defensive backfield. If he was as good as you think at any of them, they would stop moving him around. They are still trying to figure out what he is.

An excellent FS? The way to attack the patriots defense is underneath and over the top. Both of which attack the safeties. So when we are getting gashed underneath, its either on the LB's not being able to cover, or Mccourty reading and reacting late (often).

Being a press corner requires zero technique? He has the skill set to play press corner. That subjective, just because you don't think its a "technique" doesnt mean its not one.

Its hard to call anyone in that secondary "excellent" when they have played so poorly as a group for 3 years.