2011 Offseason

Thank you Deus. Robo and JackBauer who will do anything to suk up to Belichick keep bringing up the fact that Kerrigan went 16. Wow, how did the Redskins get him????? THEY TRADED UP!!!!. How did the Pats get Daniel Graham in 2002. THEY TRADED UP!!! How did the Jets get Darrelle Revis? They TRADED UP!!!! Will you stop with that baloney about where the pick went. The Pats had the currency to go up to 10 if they wanted to. People were dying to trade back.

Big-T said:

Liuget, Amukamara, Taylor & Jordan were available at 17
Sheard & Reed were available at 28 and 33

Any 3 of those would have improved the team.

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And instead, they took Solder, while improving the team in the process. What's your point?

Deus Irae said:

Trading up is not against the law, even in New England.

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I know. But I will admit, given how this year has gone, being baffled by how anyone would have qualms with the Solder pick.

Trading away the NO pick, on the other hand....

Big-T said:

Liuget, Amukamara, Taylor & Jordan were available at 17
Sheard & Reed were available at 28 and 33

Any 3 of those would have improved the team.

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Really? How do we know that? Some players are good fits for some teams and bad fits for others.

I was an advocate of trading way up to take an impact player like Miller or A. Smith. I thought that they would be good fits for the Patriots 3-4. But then the Patriots change to a 4-3 and I don't know how they would have fit the 4-3.

JackBauer said:

And instead, they took Solder, while improving the team in the process. What's your point?

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no problem with the solder pick........taking dowling over brooks reed was flat out stupid

I understand the vereen pick, but to have both 2nd rounders turn into dust is lousy drafting

JackBauer said:

I know. But I will admit, given how this year has gone, being baffled by how anyone would have qualms with the Solder pick.

Trading away the NO pick, on the other hand....

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I could give you what I consider a very convincing argument as to why the Solder pick was a screw up of epic proportions, pointing out that both Light and Vollmer were found in the second round, that the Patriots could still have drafted Sherrod with the #28 pick had they used #17 on someone other than Solder, that they could have used that #28 pick to move higher if another highly chosen tackle was more to their liking than Sherrod, etc... However, in the end, that comes down to an individual's ranking of the team's priorities and, while I could disagree with people who don't buy my argument, I couldn't tell them they were definitively wrong, because the team did need to get the tackle position settled for the future and I don't have any special insight as to how the Patriots rated those other tackles.

JetFan1 said:

How am I overrating him?

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and is now having his breakout year this year as the featured back

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Because this is not happening, despite your claim.

Deus Irae said:

I could give you what I consider a very convincing argument as to why the Solder pick was a screw up of epic proportions, pointing out that both Light and Vollmer were found in the second round, that the Patriots could still have drafted Sherrod with the #28 pick had they used #17 on someone other than Solder, that they could have used that #28 pick to move higher if another highly chosen tackle was more to their liking than Sherrod, etc... However, in the end, that comes down to an individual's ranking of the team's priorities and, while I could disagree with people who don't buy my argument, I couldn't tell them they were definitively wrong, because the team did need to get the tackle position settled for the future and I don't have any special insight as to how the Patriots rated those other tackles.

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solder was a good pick based on who else was available.......if JJ watt or aldon smith were available, then not so much, but that was not the case.....solder is just a puppy, and I believe with another 20-25lbs, and a year or 2 of experience, he will be an all-pro. sherrod does not hold a match to solder's physicality.

solder, wilkerson, brooks reed........those 3 would have provided BB with the best opportunity to continue what he has pursued for a defense here.

Darolyn72 said:

Thank you Deus. Robo and JackBauer who will do anything to suk up to Belichick keep bringing up the fact that Kerrigan went 16. Wow, how did the Redskins get him????? THEY TRADED UP!!!!. How did the Pats get Daniel Graham in 2002. THEY TRADED UP!!! How did the Jets get Darrelle Revis? They TRADED UP!!!! Will you stop with that baloney about where the pick went. The Pats had the currency to go up to 10 if they wanted to. People were dying to trade back.

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LOL!

First, I am no fan of Deus, but he is no suck up to Belichick. He slams him as much as anyone.

Second, if no one wants to trade with you or they are asking for unreasonable prices, you can't make a trade. Teams are not forced to trade with you. I can imagine this conversation now:

Belichick: I want to trade up for your pick.

Other GM: Sorry we are keeping the pick.

Belichick: No, you don't understand. I want your pick. What do you want for it.

Other GM: I really don't want to trade it, but if you give us 3 first round picks and 2 second rounders, we will trade.

Belichick: No, but I really want your pick. I'll give you my pick in this round and my pick in the next round. That is a fair offer and you are forced to take it.

Other GM: <to someone in his war room> He send out pick down. <to Bill> Gotta go. Hopefully we just didn't take your pick. <CLICK>

JetFan1 said:

Then you stick to your fantasy stats and spreadsheets that portray season numbers, completely ignoring my point, and I'll stick to actually watching the game and seeing the player perform.

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Greene is not an elite back. he is what he is - a grinder who will occasionally bust a 20 yard run and very very rarely a long TD (and he'll do that less and less as his career wears on). He doesn't have the elusiveness or explosion needed to make big plays on a consistent basis.

That said, with adequate blocking he is a positive yardage machine . . . he may rarely get you runs of 9+ yards - but he'll also rarely get you runs of fewer than 3 yards, and almost never gets thrown for a loss. He's an adequate starter for the Jets.

IllegalContact said:

you can define bust whatever way you like......to me, if a 2nd rounder is not a steady contributor in year 1, slap the bust label on them.....there are certain exceptions......QB takes time to develop for some.....but anyone else, if you're drafted in rounds 1 and 2 and you don't produce in year 1, you are a bust.

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This is stupid. DL typically take years to develop (NT especially). CBs often take time to adjust to the NFL (see Kyle Wilson for the latest example). As fantasy players know, rookie RBs are often mediocre performers (Ryan Matthews). WRs take time . . . ever hear of the "Third Year Receiver" rule?

It's rare for players to come into the league and shine from day 1

I know Deus is no suck up. He knows football and I want to hear his Solder theory because I agree with it. You Robo with your fantasy land in which no one will trade with the Patriots, I mean, I have NEVER seen a homer like you.

Felger's analysis on the Jets vs the Pats has been right on. Its painful and the ultimate slap in the face.

Now that Kyle Wilson has turned into one of the best #3 corners in the league and McCourty is morphing into Deltha O'Neill Tannebaum, who is an a*s is making a fool out of the "genius".

The Jets have a smothering defense. They did it with draft, free agency and scheme. And they did it almost over night.

Bill can't do it with any. When the Jets run over the Pats this week its going to be another slap in the face of Patriots fans.

Darolyn72 said:

http://www.patriotsdaily.com/2011/11/10-critical-mistakes-the-new-england-patriots-have-made-in-2011/

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After taking out the extra http in there and reading the article, I can't see one point that I don't disagree with. I said at the time that this looked to be one of the worst drafts in the Belichick era, and, unfortunately, I'm now starting to be proven right. Even though Light has aged, we have opportunities to get a future franchise tackle next year. That pick or a higher pick after moving up should have absolutely, positively, been used on the defensive side of the ball. Getting two RB's when we were going to re-sign BJGE anyway (and even if we weren't going to re-sign him) was also a mistake, especially since one of them hasn't seen a second of playing time this year. On top of that, we drafted a CB who was injury prone throughout his college career. His first year in the NFL? IR. :ugh: And I also agree that we need a big name defensive coach from outside the current staff going into next year. Someone that can question some of the decisions that Belichick makes, as the current staff apparently doesn't do that often enough.

IllegalContact said:

maybe if you're into 4-3 defenses, but this defense is simply worse than last years. both have had most of their sacks at meaningless moments and have hardly had an impact on any success

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First, you are making an assumption that the 4-3 defense is the reason why the defense has had problems. The Pats were primarily in a four man front last year.

Second, you assume the problem with this defense is with the front seven in particular the DE/OLB position. Both players are an upgrade over Tully Banta Cain.

its not semantics........its called accuracy.....andruzzi was RG for 2 SB's and LG for one.......but don't let that stop you from arguing semantics

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So the fact he was a RG for two and LG for one, it doesn't make him a starter. The point is he was an impact starter who was acquired in September. The rest of this stuff is a red herring.

vrabel was relevant to success from the very first moment......andruzzi had well over a year to be a part of anything remotely resembling success.

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Vrabel was a situational player until about a quarter of the way into the season.

I'll eat my words if he does, but if he does what you describe, it will be a first....it simply doesn't happen....but keep holding out precious hope

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Since you must have the same 5th grade education as RayRay (Jetsfan1). What I said was hypothetical and the extreme to show how ridiculous your argument is that he is bust halfway through his rookie season.

you can define bust whatever way you like......to me, if a 2nd rounder is not a steady contributor in year 1, slap the bust label on them.....there are certain exceptions......QB takes time to develop for some.....but anyone else, if you're drafted in rounds 1 and 2 and you don't produce in year 1, you are a bust.

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Well, here are some other first and second round "busts" by your definition then:

Ray Rice
Sidney Rice
Eric Weddle
Maurice Jones-Drew
Greg Jennings
Vincent Jackson
Bob Sanders
Osi Umenyora
Kyle Vanden Bosch
Santana Moss
Chad Ochocinco
Ty Warren

And this was a quick search.

Darolyn72 said:

I know Deus is no suck up. He knows football and I want to hear his Solder theory because I agree with it. You Robo with your fantasy land in which no one will trade with the Patriots, I mean, I have NEVER seen a homer like you.

Felger's analysis on the Jets vs the Pats has been right on. Its painful and the ultimate slap in the face.

Now that Kyle Wilson has turned into one of the best #3 corners in the league and McCourty is morphing into Deltha O'Neill Tannebaum, who is an a*s is making a fool out of the "genius".

The Jets have a smothering defense. They did it with draft, free agency and scheme. And they did it almost over night.

Bill can't do it with any. When the Jets run over the Pats this week its going to be another slap in the face of Patriots fans.

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I didn't say that no one would trade with the Pats at all, but we do not know that they could find a trade partner where they wanted to trade up. Every year teams try desperately to trade up and have hard times finding trade partners. You hear stories of teams trying one pick after another to get a trade partner. Not every team wants to trade away every pick. They only do it if they get proper value and if the player they want is expected to be where they trade down to. If a team wants a player and that player isn't likely to last to where they trade down, they won't trade.

There is a reason why there are only a handful of trades in the first round in a busy year.

The Jets haven't traded up in a long while and don't do it all that often.

McCourty has actually been solid the last months of games. But comparing a slot CB to to a LCB is not a fair comparison either way. Wilson faces the 3rd best receiver most of the time which McCourty faces the first. Wilson plays man and McCourty plays zone.

Ummm..... When the Jets run over the Pats?!? Has the game been played already? Don't you mean IF the Jets win? If the Pats win, they will have swept the Jets during the season and you will be long gone commiserating with your fellow Jets fans until the next loss.

Doggin94it said:

This is stupid. DL typically take years to develop (NT especially). CBs often take time to adjust to the NFL (see Kyle Wilson for the latest example). As fantasy players know, rookie RBs are often mediocre performers (Ryan Matthews). WRs take time . . . ever hear of the "Third Year Receiver" rule?

It's rare for players to come into the league and shine from day 1

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no its not.......sure it may take time to realize potential, but if you can't step on the field and contribute in year 1, you have no business being a 2nd rounder.......you at least get on the field.....everyone you mentioned at least got on the field.......

what's dowling adjusting to right now.....he'll be a rookie all over again next year.......

anyone who is going to go anywhere at least finds a way onto the field.......and regardless of reason (injury or lack of ability), if they don't even get on the field as rookies, then 99 times out of 100, they fall by the wayside. next year, the cards will be stacked against him because there will be more 1st year players here (both rookies and FA's) and they will be seen differntly than the dented can....just the way it goes.

I'm still trying to find someone in the 2nd round who barely gets on the field as a rookie make much of anything further down the road. its like you can spot 'em a mile away

Rob0729 said:

McCourtey has actually been solid the last months of games. But comparing a slot CB to to a LCB is not a fair comparison either way. Wilson faces the 3rd best receiver most of the time which McCourty faces the first. Wilson plays man and McCourty

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You are a full of it. The slot receiver isn't only the #3 receiver, and you prance on as some kind of football expert? Ever here of motion or shifting pre-snap? On the play that iced the game against the Chargers, it was Wilson that communicated a shift with Revis before the snap and covered Vincent Jackson and made the play for the INT.

Do you just throw whatever you can pull out of your rear hoping it sticks, and that somebody will buy it?

Fact is, Wilson has made huge strides this year, while McCourtey has been burned like a rented mule!

IllegalContact said:

no its not.......sure it may take time to realize potential, but if you can't step on the field and contribute in year 1, you have no business being a 2nd rounder.......you at least get on the field.....everyone you mentioned at least got on the field.......

what's dowling adjusting to right now.....he'll be a rookie all over again next year.......

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First, your position is a weak one to take, although as a personal evaluation position, it's your own to do. Second, Dowling had gotten on the field, as a starter, and was contributing. Your argument makes no sense in either case, but Dowling clearly met your standard anyway, so calling him a bust, even under your evaluation metric, is simply incorrect.

Rob0729 said:

First, you are making an assumption that the 4-3 defense is the reason why the defense has had problems. The Pats were primarily in a four man front last year.

Second, you assume the problem with this defense is with the front seven in particular the DE/OLB position. Both players are an upgrade over Tully Banta Cain.





So the fact he was a RG for two and LG for one, it doesn't make him a starter. The point is he was an impact starter who was acquired in September. The rest of this stuff is a red herring.




Vrabel was a situational player until about a quarter of the way into the season.




Since you must have the same 5th grade education as RayRay (Jetsfan1). What I said was hypothetical and the extreme to show how ridiculous your argument is that he is bust halfway through his rookie season.




Well, here are some other first and second round "busts" by your definition then:

Ray Rice
Sidney Rice
Eric Weddle
Maurice Jones-Drew
Greg Jennings
Vincent Jackson
Bob Sanders
Osi Umenyora
Kyle Vanden Bosch
Santana Moss
Chad Ochocinco
Ty Warren

And this was a quick search.

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not too swift with the language, are ya buddy? WTF do you not understand about "NOT GETTING ON THE FIELD" .... are you too stupid to tell the difference between Jones-Drew and Vereen?

Ray Rice - played 13 games and started 4...almost 500 yards
Sidney Rice - played 13 games and started 4 (not a good example anyway since he's really only been good one out of 5 years)
Weddle - played in 15 games....42 tackles
Jones Drew - played in 16 games and gained almost 1000 yards
Greg Jennings - 14 games, 11 starts 700 yards
VJackson - played 7 games...the closest thing to an exception
BSanders - 30 tackles in 6 games......got hurt......the story of his career
Umenyiora - played in 13 games 20 tackles and a sack
VandenBosch - flopped for his first team...so maybe there's hope for dowling on another team
SMoss - another VJackson 5 games
Ochocinco - 12 games 3 starts
Ty Warren - 16 games 4 starts

which one is vereen like? how about dowling? right now, combined, they don't even add up to chad jackson

do you know the difference between these being a productive rookie and not stepping onto the field? the kicker is that dowling showed up as advertised and the biggest fear (injury prone) has been realized....if there is any glimmer of an argument, it could be made for WR's, but sorry, that does not happen with the pats......the only guys who would fall into this category are troy brown and david givens, and they were drafted much later.

you really want to stick with this argument?

as for vrabel, he was a full time contributor almost immediately, and not sure what he ahs to do with supporting your argument since he was signed in the spring time by a man who had a plan at the time

LOL......you're a red herring

Deus Irae said:

First, your position is a weak one to take, although as a personal evaluation position, it's your own to do. Second, Dowling had gotten on the field, as a starter, and was contributing. Your argument makes no sense in either case, but Dowling clearly met your standard anyway, so calling him a bust, even under your evaluation metric, is simply incorrect.

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ummm yeah.......he started the 1st 2 games and sucked, got hurt, milled around for a few weeks and then got IR'd...even josh barrett outlasted him

this guys is even worse than butler