Big_Os_Hometown
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It's only a joke if other people laugh. If no one else laughs, then you TRIED to make a joke but failed.
piling on...
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piling on...
-It never ceases to amaze me how overreactive this board is. I can understand REACTING to rumors and news. Comments such as "wow, if they are far apart this may turn into an issue" or "if this cant get worked out, I want them to (fill in the blank) but lets see what happens" I can understand. The comments that either overrate him or trash his ability, or make judgment that he is scum or the team is cheap, etc, etc based on A REPORT FROM ADAM SCHECTER amaze me. I've never understood why we are so quick to turn a news story about what may be going on behind the scenes into proof that a specific conclusion is guaranetted.
-There seem to be 2 camps:
Camp 1) He isnt that good. This is based on somehow implying that his int #s are a bad thing. Never understood that one. Absolutely Ints are not the sole criteria for a corner, but somehow those knocking him are arguing that it is, and strangely using that to say he isnt that good. Gives me a headache. Additionally, I have heard the 'one good year' comment consisistently. I dont get that one either. I seem to remember we won a SB with Asante playing in place of Ty Law, whom many fans (probably most of the same ones) felt we couldnt win without. I also seem to remember him being far and away the best corner on an AFCE champ that won a playoff game, and played about as well defensively as any team in the NFL in the 2nd half of 2005 when the broken pieces surrounding him got duck taped together.
Camp 2) He is great, pay him. This side also seems to imply the Patriots are being 'cheap' and not treating him well.
-My opinion is:
THINGS I BELIEVE
Asante is a very good corner
If I buy the 'one year' argument, who cares. It was his 4th season, and in his 5th, 6th...... he will be more like what he grew into by year 4 than what he was while growing into it. If you want to argue he stunk in 03-05 (nd you would be wrong) and was excellent in 06, you should argue to keep him because we are keeping him for the player he will be, not what he used to be. (This is also why the Pats do well in FA, they refuse to pay old players for what they were when they were young)
Corners ARE IMPORTANT TO OUR D. Many seem to have forgotten this. Please referesh your memories by looking back at how we played with Duane Starks, Earthwind Moreland, Terrence Shaw, and Antonio Langham playing corner.
BB will pay top dollar for top players at key positions.
BBs opinion of Samuel is absolutley evident from his willingness to pay him 8million for 1 year.
Comparing Asante to Dre Bly is ludicrous. Dre Bly is a thoroughly average corner who will never be better than he is today, and Asante is much better, and can still improve.
NFL players care about their contracts. NFL players do not think just because they can earn 8mill they shouldn't earn 9mill if they can. Human beings feel the same way. An NFL player who doesn't like a contract offer that is less than what other teams would pay him is not a scumbag, but is a normal human being.
THINGS I DO NOT BELIEVE
Something drastic has happened this week.
Any corner on our roster is close to as good as Asante.
Any draft pick we could get in a trade has as much value to us in the next 3 years as Asante Samuel.
Asante will hold out. There is 8mill on the table. Deion Branch risked a few hundred thousand by holding out, not 8 mill.
Asante is overrated.
His Ints were lucky (or any luckier than anyone elses)
Asante is a jerk, F him, let him go.
Our chances of winning SB XLII don't go down drastically if we lose Asante.
I recognize that BB will do what is best for the football team. If the SHORT AND long term success of the franchise is endangered by paying what it takes to keep him, we will not. That said, it is CRAZY to think that we get equal value from a draft choice, regardless what that draft choice is. We are built to win both now and long term. We will not be as able to win now with a rookie in Asante samuel's roster spot.
I have long disagreed with the thinking that we will not pay top dollar for good players under BB. Quite frankly, we always have. The idea that we want a middle class football team is ludicrous. There is absolutely no doubt that BB seeks and does a great job finding bargains. Ask yourself this, however. WHY????? Why does finding bargains make a football team better in a salary cap era? You have a fixed amount of dollars for a fixed amount of players. What do you do with the money you save on the 'bargain'? You can't use it to find more bargains, because you would never spend to the cap.
THE POINT OF FINDING BARGAIN PLAYERS IS TO HAVE MORE TO SPEND ON TOP PLAYERS. To say don't spend heavy on good players so you can afford more bargain guys is backward thinking. The reality is you find bargain guys so you can better afford top guys.
There is no point in overreacting right now.
BB has 2 basic options:
1) Pay Asante what it takes. This decision is not about some moral high ground. Its not about some dream structure that says personell decisions are made by math problems that say what you spend for a postion. This decision is based on the conclusion that the money spent on asante samuel gives the Patriots a better football team than taking it away from him and spending on the next best option.
2) Do not pay him. This decision again is not based on disgust that he doesn't believe the popular fantasy world opinion that players are supposed to think that they should thank the Patriots for letting them be on the team at whatever price they decide. It is not based on a reaction to the words spoken in the press. It is based on a well reasoned conclusion that the New England Patriots are a better football team by spending that amount of money on someone else other than Asante Samuel.
IMO, considering the overall cap structure of the team, considering the roster, the strengths and weaknesses, the reality of whether the team is good enough to compete for a championship today, and down the road, MY decision would be:
A) Continue to negotiate.
B) Do your job as management and negotiate the smallest deal he will agree to
C) If he will not sign, he plays under the tag, and we start over next year (there is no way he sits home and lets $8,000,000 of paychecks go uncashed)
That is MY decision. I have access to about 1% of the information necessary to make the correct decision that BB does, and have about 1% of the knowledge that BB does to make as good a decision if I did have access to as much information. (And by the way, without arrogance, I would say no one on this board has mcuh more than that same 1%).
So BB will make the right decision.
I have no hard feelings toward Asante Samuel for doing what he has every right to do, and quite frankly would be stupid not to do. What that would be asking him to do equates to John Doe sitting in his job, knowing that there are other companies that think he is real good at that job, that would like to hire him, and may give him a large raise, and me telling him he is a bad guy to pursue those opportunities or to tell his current employer that someone else is willing to pay him more to do the same thing and he doesnt like that they wont.
I have no hard feelings toward the Pats for their position either. To do so, would equate to telling Bill Gates that I am more capable of deciding how much money he should pay his top systems designer, and also more capable of deciding how that systems designer is to his company.
Bottom line: Relax. There is no reason to trash or overrate the player to support your opinion on the financial decision. There is no need to villify the player for feeling his paycheck is an important thing, or the franchise for feeling their long term cap structure is an important thing. NOTHING HAS HAPPENED. Let it play out, whatever happens is in the hands of the best front office in sports history. As fans whatever the result, it will end up in OUR best interest, because the decisions are being made by the smartest footbal people that have ever run a franchise.
Reading alot of these posts makes me think that these "street free agents" were walking onto a team with a healthy Rodney Harrison and a great linebacker corps in it's prime. The state of the defense now is a great 3-man front backed up by an aging linebacker corps that has definitely lost a step and needs to depend on the secondary to step it up more than in the past w/o a healthy Harrison back there to direct traffic and roll heads. While I agree that Asante had a career year, he is still a rock-solid defender that will make QB's think twice about passing on him next year. Asante has to know that playing on this defense one more year under the tag will only solidify his position next year as a free agent!Obviously there are a few other things I disagree with, but I wonder why you lump Earthwind Moreland, and Terrence Shaw in with Duane Starks? Earthwind Moreland was a street free agent who played for a world championship defense. Shaw also played for a world championship defense.
Duane Starks just stunk from his first game in NE, and eventually was replaced by Ellis Hobbs who did a lot better. Yes, NE has done well with top level CB play, but NE has also done well with the street free agents of the world. I think a lot of it (especially on defense) has to do with the scheme/system/coaching. It seems like NE develops CB's quite well, and that most have their best years in NE's defense. Asante already being in the defense would have more initial value than a first round traft pick, but to say NE couldn't turn a CB with first round into Asante Samuel or an even better CB within two/three years doesn't make sense to me. Also, I think he's worth 6-7M a year, but for some reason I think he wants more like 8M per year, and I wouldn't pay him that much. I wouldn't have paid Nate Clements that much, either.
Since Asante seemed quite confident and even happy about the prospects of a long term deal a month ago, and now is quite discouraged and upset, I see two likely possibilities:
1) BB/SP negotiated in good faith to find THE deal that it would take to get Asante signed, then (after carefull consideration) backed off the deal, feeling there wasn't value in it.
2) The deal is still agreable to both parties and the intention is to sign it on or shortly after draft day, but BB/SP have asked Asante to publicly grumble about it so that teams think the Patriots will target CBs in round one.
I think both are plausible. We shouldn't always take things at face value, a lot of media stories are purposely leaked. Offseason football is not that different than politics.
2) The deal is still agreable to both parties and the intention is to sign it on or shortly after draft day, but BB/SP have asked Asante to publicly grumble about it so that teams think the Patriots will target CBs in round one.
I agree with what you are saying..the comparison is shallow and misses the point totally. IF the numbers were the same and meant as much lifestyle wise I would agree, but these players are in the very top of the pay scale in the US. NO comparison at all in reality to fans.Top notch post Andy, but this is one part I have to disagree with.
People use this analogy all the time when they are trying to defend a players financial demands. IMO, the situations are just not the same. For John Doe the difference between the first job and the second jobs salaries are the ability to live more comfortably, send his children to the colleges they want, provide your family with the basic necessities they need, as well as live a life where you are not always consumed worrying about how you will make ends meet.
For NFL players there is just not that much difference in terms of life style from making 6 million dollars per year to making 7 million dollars per year. They are going to be able to do all the things that John Doe will be able to do and more regardless of which salary he takes. Rich is rich. He will still have more money than one person really needs. The difference in pay for the two jobs makes a big difference in the life of John Doe because he makes so much less overall. We hear Randy Moss talking about how getting fined 10,000 dollars is no big deal and makes no difference to him. And it's true. But for you're average person who has two work 50 hours a week, money actually matters.
BBs opinion of Samuel is absolutley evident from his willingness to pay him 8million for 1 year.
* That's not true. If it was then Samuel would have a deal. BBioli also franchised Tebucky Jones, but I don't believe he felt TJ was worth whatever that tag figure was at the time. The Franchise is simply a way for the team to keep a hook on the player rather than lose him to FA when March 1st hits. It just alloows the team to work something out either with that player, and that deal won't be worth the tag money per year, or get something in return.
I don't know what AS wants or what the Patriots have offered. I don't know if they'll tell him if he plays this year for the tag they won't tag him next year. Or if no deal is struck and no tag promise about next year is made, AS will show up or not. I do also believe BBioli will do what's best for the team's success.
We shouldn't just think, if AS goes, the difference between him and his replacement makes the Patriots D worse. It's team defense. A Thomas makes us better and they likely aren't done yet. If AS leaves, does whatever improvements they bring in make the total D package better or worse? In 2003 when Samuel wasn't as good a player and Gay was the other CB, they won a SB because the rest of the D was really good and "covered" for the CB's. They could do that again should AS be gone.
But its not just 2006 either.
The argument used to be that BB 'inherited' the contracts of Law, McGinest, TJ, etc.
I would bet over the last 6 years (I think you can kind of throw out 2000 because when BB got here it was a scramble to cut guys and get under the cap) we have been near if not the most top heavy in the NFL to the cap. (Top heavy meaning highest % going to the few highest paid guys)
It only makes sense. Everyone likes to point out the lower priced bargains as proof of a 'frugal' approach. In reality its proof of the opposite, because those savings have to go somewhere and that is to the top of the chart, whether its the top 3, or 5 or 10.
Why save money at the middle and bottom of the roster? 2 choices bank it or spend it at the top. Since we have always spent to the cap, there is only 1 conclusion.
All that makes sense...I agree that a deal may not be able to be worked out before the draft..so be it..BB/SP will do what is best for the team...and I agree they will move on if they need to..the mistake last year was thinking a deal with Branch was possible..when in reality Branch had made a decision to opt out of NE way before...The biggest open question for me is whether we will get a deal done before the draft (with Samuel or with another team). I have indicated for well over a year that I did not expect Samuel to play this year for the patriots. And no, I do not think that franchising Samuel meant that bb expects Samuel to play. That act simply exercised the patriot right under the CBA to restrict the ability of one free agent to switch teams without compensation, and that the patriots were willing to deal all the press and PR distractions before moving on. The compensation will be negotiated. The question is when, and how well we will be able to backfill. Last year the team spent the entire off-season expecting to sign Branch and Law. Decisions and strategies were driven by that likelihood. I would say that the patriots were right to assign the tag, as long as we get anything for Samuel (what we get will be determined by the market) . IMHO, the team should decide when to move on a little earlier than last year. I suspect the decision has already been made.
And sure, it is possible that no one will pay more for Samuel that the pats, and/or that Samuel want to play here so much that he would give us a discount or in some other way favor the patriots. Don't hold your breath! I see absolutely no reason for Samuel to do any favors for the patriots. He played well. He completed his contractual responsibilities. The patriots and Samuel have had a year to work out a deal. It hasn't happened. So, let's give it a bit more time, and move on.
Obviously, I hope, as most here, that a deal can be worked out. But would I personally put the value to the team of Samuel in the same class as Brady and Seymour. Naah!
I think the reality is that the value of a corner in our system is less than in other systems. In addition, other teams have different strategies for pricing various positions on their rosters. I see no particular reason to believe that Samuel is worth anywhere as much to the patriots as he would be elsewhere.
I have no comment to the idea that the franchise salary is so much that Samuel should play for the team forever, risking a career-ending injury on every play, with no protection of a signing bonus.
The BOTTOM LINE is that the time is now for Samuel. He should be able to convince a couple of teams that his prospects are high enough for a team to pay more on a long-term contract than the patriots are willing to pay (perhaps now; certainly after the draft).
Miguel...do you know what % of the Colts cap are:
Peyton Manning
Marvin Harrison
Dwight Freeney
Thanks