Where Is The Pats Deep Threat At????

[coolguy]

They can also be beat with taller receivers, of which we had only one.

The steelers offense look like a physical version of the current finesse patriots receiving core.

All these years the steelers offense use to man handle the ravens secondary Hines Ward Levels Ed Reed - YouTube

while brady and the patriots play finesse and let the ravens knock them around. The patriots haven't won a superbowl since they had a physical fast receiving core
Branch-givens-brown- and davind patten


It makes since that the 2004 patriots were able destroy the ravens 24-6.

 

[coolguy]

Hate me all you want for saying this, but deion branch in 03-04 has been more valuable/dependable than wes welker in his 6 seasons.

Deion branch took over playoff games during the repeat.

 

[Sciz]

The ravens secondary is not as great as the patriots make them look. They can be beat over the top by fast receivers Antonio Brown 58 yard catch vs. Ravens-Divisional Playoffs - YouTube.


Mike wallace and Antonio Brown are the reason the steelers have owned the ravens.

I'm not sure how that would've helped yesterday. You can't throw that pass in 20 MPH wind. There's a reason the longest completed pass yesterday was only 25 yards down the field.

 

[supafly]

I'm not sure how that would've helped yesterday. You can't throw that pass in 20 MPH wind. There's a reason the longest completed pass yesterday was only 25 yards down the field.

Not to mention the fact that both Wallace and Brown are nowhere near guarantees to be able to run the precise timing routes that are required in this offense, by reading and adjusting to every single coverage and play.

There's no guarantee they'd be in the right place at the right time, that they wouldn't add INT's to our extremely low turnover rate, that they would give their all on every play and not take plays off, that they'd block effectively in the running game, that they'd have a positive attitude, that they'd gain Brady's trust, that they wouldn't get injured, that they'd catch most of the balls, and finally and most importantly...that they'd somehow allow us to field the current team under the salary cap restrictions.

Wallace is currently being booed out of town as we speak, mostly for failing to catch the balls that were thrown to him this year.

Brown is a great draft find, which is what we need to luck out on, BUT he's nowhere near anything of a guarantee in this specific offense. That isn't even addressing the fact that we'd likely have to give up Wes Welker to even take a chance on him (or a player like him that seems to work with another team) due to cap restrictions and the whole team building aspect.

 

[supafly]

They can also be beat with taller receivers, of which we had only one.

It helps the steelers when they play them Antonio Brown 58 yard catch vs. Ravens-Divisional Playoffs - YouTube

The ravens secondary is not as great as the patriots make them look. They can be beat over the top by fast receivers Antonio Brown 58 yard catch vs. Ravens-Divisional Playoffs - YouTube.


Mike wallace and Antonio Brown are the reason the steelers have owned the ravens.

We beat them in last year's AFCCG, and for all intents and purposes beat them again in week 3, scoring 30 points on them and moving the ball at will. That game came down to poor critical calls by the replacement refs, the most of which were 2 questionable FG's--either one to our success.

Prior to the week 3 loss which was 31-30, Tom Brady was 5-1 vs Baltimore.

For every game that the great Antonio Brown scored on BAL, the PIT defense surely added a lot. On top of that BAL has beaten PIT in 3 of their last 4 matchups, so this thinking is thrown entirely out the window anyway.

We can beat Baltimore, or any other team in the NFL. The key is not turning the ball over and executing, which they normally do at a very high rate.

Just in case anyone missed the stat yesterday, Tom Brady was 67-0 at home when they had a lead at the half. Bill Belichick was 72-1 in his tenure.

That's 67 straight home games where they had a lead of 1 point, 3 points, whatever....that's insane. Absolutely insane.

I'm hoping that Belichick isn't going to run to the a team that has lost to Baltimore in 3 of its last 4 games (Pittsburgh) to ask them for player personnel advice. Especially when Brady himself was 5-2 against them prior to yesterday's loss.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The ravens secondary is not as great as the patriots make them look. They can be beat over the top by fast receivers Antonio Brown 58 yard catch vs. Ravens-Divisional Playoffs - YouTube.


Mike wallace and Antonio Brown are the reason the steelers have owned the ravens.

That was 2 years ago and if you watch the entire mistake laden game highlights the steelers owned the ravens back then because Flacco was a mistake prone putz and they turned the ball over repeatedly and didn't have the kind of offense that could overcome or afford repeated misakes. Baltimore has in the interim eliminated the mistakes and upgraded their offense.

The Steelers GM is now talking about wholesale changes to their approach (which has led to cap troubles) to counter that.

 

[TomPatriot]

Ding Ding Ding.
The current Patriots offense is built around being perfect. They have long, sustained drives, short passes etc..No big hitters.

The problem with that is that this approach requires TFB to be perfect and execute every throw. Guys like Flacco can chuck it and pick up 30 yards without having to run 7 great plays and make perfect throws.

Look at the Red Zone and tell me this team doesn't need receivers. We had no shot without Gronk today.

Brady is at a tremendous disadvantage compared To Flacco, Ryan, etc...
Those guys have receivers who can make big plays WHILE BEING covered.
Lloyd and Welker have catch radiuses of about 6 inches downfield.

Except that Flacco didn't chuck it up. Two Boldin catches he put it there on the break in route.

 

[ivanvamp]

Did you not see the Ravens play last night?

Here is the complete list of Flacco's pass attempts on Sunday:

1st Quarter
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short left to R.Rice.
J.Flacco pass short right to V.Leach to BLT 27 for 17 yards (S.Gregory).
J.Flacco pass incomplete deep left to A.Boldin.
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short left to A.Boldin (A.Talib).
(No Huddle) J.Flacco pass incomplete short right to E.****son.
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep right to D.Pitta.

2nd Quarter
J.Flacco pass short right to V.Leach to BLT 18 for 5 yards (J.Mayo). FUMBLES (J.Mayo), ball out of bounds at BLT 16.
J.Flacco pass short middle to D.Pitta to BLT 33 for 17 yards (S.Gregory; K.Arrington).
J.Flacco pass short right to R.Rice to BLT 46 for 11 yards (B.Spikes).
J.Flacco pass short right to B.Pierce to NE 44 for 8 yards (K.Arrington).
(No Huddle) J.Flacco pass deep left to T.Smith to NE 15 for 25 yards (K.Arrington) [V.Wilfork].
J.Flacco pass incomplete short left to D.Pitta.

3rd Quarter
(No Huddle) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep middle to T.Smith [J.Mayo].
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass deep left to A.Boldin to NE 48 for 26 yards (D.McCourty).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short right to T.Smith.
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short left to T.Smith.
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep left to T.Doss (K.Arrington).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to D.Pitta to 50 for 22 yards (D.McCourty).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep left to T.Smith.
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to R.Rice to NE 35 for 15 yards (D.McCourty).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short left to T.Smith to NE 30 for 5 yards (M.Cole).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep right to J.Jones.
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to A.Boldin to NE 10 for 12 yards (M.Cole).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to D.Pitta to NE 5 for 5 yards (J.Mayo).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short right to D.Pitta for 5 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short right to R.Rice to BLT 33 for -4 yards (D.Hightower).
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass deep right to T.Smith to NE 44 for 23 yards (D.McCourty).
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete deep right to T.Smith.
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to D.Pitta to NE 13 for 6 yards (J.Mayo).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short left to A.Boldin to NE 5 for 8 yards (M.Cole; D.McCourty).

4th Quarter
J.Flacco pass short middle to A.Boldin for 3 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass deep left to T.Smith to NE 31 for 16 yards (K.Arrington).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short middle to J.Jones to NE 11 for 6 yards (B.Spikes).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) J.Flacco pass short right to A.Boldin for 11 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short left to J.Jones [B.Spikes].
(Shotgun) J.Flacco pass incomplete short right to A.Boldin.


Ok, so according to espn's designations, here's how it breaks down:

Short Left: 2-7, 13 yds
Short Middle: 7-7, 83 yds, 1 td
Short Right: 7-10, 53 yds, 2 td
TOTAL SHORT: 16-24, 149 yds, 3 td, 123.0 rating

Deep Left: 3-6, 67 yds
Deep Middle: 0-1, 0 yds
Deep Right: 1-4, 23 yds
TOTAL DEEP: 4-11, 90 yds, 66.5 rating

For what it's worth, I wouldn't consider the 16-yarder to Smith in the 4th quarter a "deep" pass, but more of a "medium" pass, but whatever. Long story short, Flacco did what many of us here thought he wouldn't be able to do: he shredded the Pats with underneath stuff and marched them down the field successfully.

For comparison's sake, using the same ESPN designations, here were Brady's "deep" passes:

(No Huddle, Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to W.Welker
(Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to B.Lloyd [D.Ellerbe].
(No Huddle) T.Brady pass deep left to B.Lloyd to BLT 20 for 16 yards (C.Williams).
(Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete deep middle to D.Branch.
(No Huddle) T.Brady pass deep right to W.Welker to NE 49 for 24 yards (B.Pollard; C.Graham).
(Shotgun) T.Brady pass incomplete deep middle to D.Branch [H.Ngata].
(Shotgun) T.Brady pass deep left to W.Welker to BLT 24 for 36 yards (C.Graham).
(No Huddle, Shotgun) T.Brady pass deep left intended for B.Lloyd INTERCEPTED by C.Williams at BLT -5.

So Brady was 3-8 for 76 yards and an INT (rating of 33.3) on deep balls. If the pick was just an incomplete pass his rating would have been 72.9, better than Flacco's.

Flacco only completed one more "deep" pass than Brady did, but I would suggest that the *threat* of the deep ball opened up the middle of the field more for Baltimore than it did for New England. And, of course, the fact that NE couldn't get any pressure on Flacco meant that he just ripped the Pats apart underneath.

 

[bagwell368]

Deep threat? Another Lloyd with NFL leading YAC would do it.

Face facts:

Brady can no longer throw the deep pass with accuracy like in the past - all those shoulder scopes and age is taking it's toll. Take a chill pill - some weeks he can, and others he can't. Overall, he's a long way from 2007, and its not just the personal or offensive philosophy.

The OL is calibrated to give protection for so long, and not much longer, it's risky for Brady to throw more then 3-5 25+ yard passes a game.

Brady's foot speed and pocket presence are both dropping. How many times did he duck at shadows this year while trying to pass?

Forward:

In terms of the Pats short/medium offense, Gronk and AH take the role of tall physical possession WR's. Welker is the slot and a grand one he has been.

Lloyd is a good X - in particular for the money. Don't forget the Pats coach the rec's to hit the ground after the catch unless nice YAC can be made.

Drafting a Z with a top pick is very risky because so many can't decipher the offense here, and many of the rest are ego/party boys for whatever reason. I'd rather pay FA prices for one than take a stab with a pick that is liable to be better used for DT, CB, RT (if Vollmer isn't signed).

We either sign Welker for 2 or 3 years or he's gone, in which case we sign Edelman for slot. If Edelman, get a developmental guy in here too.

Stallworth and Branch are gone for good. We need a Z, and Welker leaving will cover much/most of that cost for a FA.

 

[bagwell368]

Hate me all you want for saying this, but deion branch in 03-04 has been more valuable/dependable than wes welker in his 6 seasons.

Deion branch took over playoff games during the repeat.

True or not (I think not), that Branch is dead and buried, who is the stand-in?

 

[ivanvamp]

Hate me all you want for saying this, but deion branch in 03-04 has been more valuable/dependable than wes welker in his 6 seasons.

Deion branch took over playoff games during the repeat.

Deion Branch's playoff game log for NE during his first stint with the Pats:
vs Ten ('04) - 3 rec, 10 yds, 0 td
vs Ind ('04) - 2 rec, 23 yds, 0 td
vs Car ('04) - 10 rec, 143 yds, 1 td
vs Ind ('05) - 1 rec, 15 yds, 0 td
at Pit ('05) - 4 rec, 116 yds, 1 td (added a rushing TD as well)
vs Phi ('05) - 11 rec, 133 yds, 0 td (won MVP)
vs Jax ('06) - 2 rec, 36 yds, 0 td
at Den ('06) - 8 rec, 153 yds, 0 td

TOTALS: 41 rec, 629 yds, 15.3 avg, 2 td
AVG GAME: 5 rec, 79 yds


Wes Welker's playoff game log for NE:
vs Jax ('08) - 9 rec, 54 yds, 1 td
vs SD ('08) - 7 rec, 56 yds, 1 td
vs NYG ('08) - 11 rec, 103 yds, 0 td
vs NYJ ('10) - 7 rec, 57 yds, 0 td
vs Den ('11) - 6 rec, 55 yds, 1 td
vs Bal ('11) - 6 rec, 53 yds, 0 td
vs NYG ('11) - 7 rec, 60 yds, 0 td
vs Hou ('12) - 8 rec, 131 yds, 0 td
vs Bal ('12) - 8 rec, 117 yds, 1 td

TOTALS: 69 rec, 686 yds, 9.9 avg, 4 td
AVG GAME: 8 rec, 76 yds

I dunno...seems pretty comparable to me. Welker certainly has been more consistent - no game with fewer than 6 receptions, and no game with fewer than 53 yds. Four games with 8+ receptions, and three games with 103+ yards. Branch, meanwhile, had 5 of his 8 games with fewer than 5 receptions, so as Cris Carter once put it, Deion has had a tendency to disappear at times, but his big games were more explosive.

Both have been terrific playoff performers for the Patriots.

 

[bagwell368]

The steelers offense look like a physical version of the current finesse patriots receiving core.

All these years the steelers offense use to man handle the ravens secondary Hines Ward Levels Ed Reed - YouTube

while brady and the patriots play finesse and let the ravens knock them around. The patriots haven't won a superbowl since they had a physical fast receiving core
Branch-givens-brown- and davind patten


It makes since that the 2004 patriots were able destroy the ravens 24-6.

The 2004 Pats are probably the best Pats team in history. Also the way the game is ref'd and played is much different. I'm sure BB would rather the 2001-2006 era rules and team make-up anytime, but those days are gone. Do you want him to be anachronism?

Tell me, what franchise matches the Pats in SB, playoff, or regular season winning %? What franchise has had more of their final camp cuts scarfed by other teams over the past couple of years?

So, we've been great or very competitive every year but 2002, 2005, 2008 (no Brady). Any other outfits out there that can say that?

So, you just wish for what cannot be? Cool story.

 

[ivanvamp]

Every team tries to 'knock out' a pass catcher. The Ravens didn't hit our receivers after the catch any harder than any other team has.
We moved the ball up and down the field, and failed on 3rd downs where the play was there, a play we usually make.
A handful of plays not executed (that were there) that left points on the field on a day with 428 yards of offense is not a lesson in scheme.

As I posted elsewhere, the Pats were inside the Ravens' 35 (which, on a normal day, is well within Gostkowski's FG range) a total of EIGHT times, and FOUR times they were in the red zone.

And all they managed to score was 13 points. Twice they punted inside the Ravens' 35.

The Pats scored TDs on 67.5% of their red zone possessions this year. That comes to an average of 4.7 points per red zone possession, *not counting field goals*. So if the Pats were playing a "normal" game, on those four red zone possessions, they should have put up 19 points (4.7 * 4) on TDs, and add another FG so they should have had between 21-24 points on those red zone trips alone.

That still leaves four other trips where they were between the 21-35 yard line. Figure they try four FGs and Ghost makes 2-3 of them. That's another 6-9 points.

Bottom line, if the Patriots play a "normal" game under normal conditions, they score between 27-33 points. They just had an awful, awful, awful day converting points.

And I think missing Gronk was a HUGE part of that, frankly.

 

[ivanvamp]

The 2004 Pats are probably the best Pats team in history. Also the way the game is ref'd and played is much different. I'm sure BB would rather the 2001-2006 era rules and team make-up anytime, but those days are gone. Do you want him to be anachronism?

Tell me, what franchise matches the Pats in SB, playoff, or regular season winning %? What franchise has had more of their final camp cuts scarfed by other teams over the past couple of years?

So, we've been great or very competitive every year but 2002, 2005, 2008 (no Brady). Any other outfits out there that can say that?

So, you just wish for what cannot be? Cool story.

And in 2005 they went 10-6, won the division, and lost in the divisional round in Denver. Not bad for being a down year.

 

[Rob0729]

Hate me all you want for saying this, but deion branch in 03-04 has been more valuable/dependable than wes welker in his 6 seasons.

Deion branch took over playoff games during the repeat.

Really? Branch missed 7 games in 2004 and one game in 2003. How is that more dependable than a guy who hasn't missed that many games in 6 years?

The 2003 offense was mediocre and carried by arguably the best defense in the Patriots history. That year the Pats the Pats had 4 games without a single offensive TD. They had the worst 3rd down conversion percentage of the Brady era. The 2003 offense averaged 21.8 PPG. The Pats scored 22 points or less this year twice.

You are really losing credibility with this argument with every post. You are saying an inactive Deion Branch is more valuable and dependable than a healthy Wes Welker. Yes, Branch had an awesome Super Bowl against Carolina, but that is not an entire season.

 

[PatsFan2]

We can find one in one of these three places.

1) Mike Wallace Pittsburgh.

2) Dwayne Bowe KC.

3) Greg Jennings GB.

If any of these guys are available and the Patriots dont bid for their services...Kraft - BB and Brady will never smell another SB.

 

[patsfan-1982]

the ravens stoped Brady all the deep threats in the world would not have helped and thats the way it will be every year at some point in the playoffs the pats will have to face a team that can just stop this offense thats why the defense needs to get better so they can keep the game close when the offense is not moveing the ball

 

[Rob0729]

We can find one in one of these three places.

1) Mike Wallace Pittsburgh.

2) Dwayne Bowe KC.

3) Greg Jennings GB.

If any of these guys are available and the Patriots dont bid for their services...Kraft - BB and Brady will never smell another SB.

Really?!? The Pats were one game away from the Super Bowl without them and no Gronk. I seriously doubt adding or not adding one of those receivers are the difference between going to/winning or not going to/not winning another Super Bowl.

The Pats need to improve their defense, not their offense to win a championship. Wallace, Bowe, and Jennings could have done nothing to stop Flacco from throwing all over the Pats' secondary.

This team is not a deep threat away from being a Super Bowl winner. Deep threats are Ferraris. They are flashy and everyone wants one, but they are not the car you want to be your car to get all your errands done.

 

[Rob0729]

the ravens stoped Brady all the deep threats in the world would not have helped and thats the way it will be every year at some point in the playoffs the pats will have to face a team that can just stop this offense thats why the defense needs to get better so they can keep the game close when the offense is not moveing the ball

I agree. People always run to the lack of a deep threat for the reason the Pats lose games which is ridiculous. The Pats had Moss in the Super Bowl vs. the Giants and that didn't help them all that much. The deep threat of Moss did nothing to stop the Giants from pressuring Brady on virtually every play.

I agree that the Pats need is a defense that can allow the Pats not to rely on the offense every game. One of the most underplayed thing about Sunday was that the Ravens' offense was crap in the first half, but their defense was able to overcome the problems with the offense and keep the game close. Without the Ravens' defensive performance on Sunday, the Pats would have blown out the Ravens.

 

[Sciz]

We can find one in one of these three places.

1) Mike Wallace Pittsburgh.

2) Dwayne Bowe KC.

3) Greg Jennings GB.

If any of these guys are available and the Patriots dont bid for their services...Kraft - BB and Brady will never smell another SB.

If the Pats shell out the money to any one of those guys, then that's basically all they can do in free agency. They're not playing around with an unlimited cap.