In defense of Tate and Butler

[37Harrison]

This is what I see... With the new rule concerning kick offs, just how important is a kr now? How many times are w going to see the ball kicked or of the endzone? Unless tate can start showing more improvement in his wr skills he's battling slater for a spot on this team.

Butler the other hand... he was drafted 41st overall. When you draft a guy there you're not looking for a solid 4,5, or 6 guy at that position. He was highly touted coming out and had high expectations. He showed promise in his rookie season and seems to have regressed a bit or at least not shown any improvement. BB benched him last year due at last in part if not completely based off of his poor play. For a reminder about how he was looked at when he was drafted read this: Darius Butler, Connecticut, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com

I its really a wonder why fans are expecting more from butler?

 

[Rob0729]

I think both Edelman, Price, Tate, Slater, Morris and Brace and a whole bunch of D lineman - essentially anyone fighting for back-up spots at deep positions is on the bubble.

In the case of Tate, I think you might be a little biased.

For example, "Tate was a top KR, Edelman an average PR." Tate was 6th in the NFL in KR avg and tied for 3rd in KR TDs with 2. Edelman was 2nd in PR avg and tied for 3rd in PR TDs with 1.

Neither guy has been a picture of durability. Both have had some brief moments of production at WR - Edelman as a rookie, Tate in couple early games last year. Both were nothing more than afterthoughts at WR at the end of last year. Then BB upgraded the WR spot by acquiring Chad. There is the open question of how valuable kick returns are with the new rules - I have no doubt BB has already decided that question in his own mind.

Edelman and Tate seem like 2 bubble players to me.

Edelman had 321 punt return yards on 21 returns (15.3 YPR), but 94 of those yards were from one return for TD. You take away that one return and his punt return average drops to 11.35 Yards per return which is pretty average. I watched the games and he had some flashes of great returns, but overall he was average. If Price shows in the preseason he can be the punt returner, Edelman becomes expendable in this area.

As for being biased, I am not. I personally don't care about Tate other than I root for all the Pats' draft picks to pan out and loved Edelman's potential after his rookie season. I just think people are jumping to too many conclusions after one preseason game where most of the starters on both teams didn't play. It is the Bam Childress affect.

I think Tate's spot is pretty safe. He will probably be given one more year to prove himself especially since most of his problems last year were mental over phyiscal and has has the physical skills to be a good starter if he can hold onto the ball. As for Tate being an afterthought at the end of the year, you do realize he had 2 catches for 82 yards and TD in week 17? Tate was not the picture of consistency and definitely needs to improve from his first year as a player, but again last year was his first year really playing and his play was not nearly as bad as people made it out to be.

Tate is a guy that people had huge expectations on and failed to deliver right away and now people want to dump on the guy. He has shown flashes of brilliance last year as well as a lack of concentration.

 

[Triumph]

Butler is a solid #4-5 CB considering his time in the system.

Tate on the other hand probably has his work cut out for him to make the team.

If the Pats arent going to shop around for another CB then Butler is better than whats behind him on the depth chart.

Beyond Mcourty, Bodden and Arrington, they would be in trouble if someone is out for an extended time IMO. Then youre again relying on players who dont have a good track record hoping they will get it.

Only 2 other ball clubs had a worse receiving defense than the Pats last season. NFL Stats: by Team Category

 

[Sfpat]

Edelman had 321 punt return yards on 21 returns (15.3 YPR), but 94 of those yards were from one return for TD. You take away that one return and his punt return average drops to 11.35 Yards per return which is pretty average. I watched the games and he had some flashes of great returns, but overall he was average. If Price shows in the preseason he can be the punt returner, Edelman becomes expendable in this area.

He also had several long punt returns that were negated by penalties, some phantom. He's a threat to go the distance on just about every return.

 

[nnmnmmnn]

Just posted something similar in another thread...

How do things look if this is a battle of Malcolm Williams and Tate vs. Butler and Slater.

Looking at it that way, you can keep Tate, price, and Edelman, and replace slaters ST contributions with ST contributions from the 5th CB spot by replacing butler with williams.

Of course, wildcard being Williams performance.

 

[Triumph]

Old press on Butler.

His combine really raised his stock higher than it should have been.

Darius Butler - Football's Future NFL Draft Profile

WalterFootball.com: 2009 NFL Draft Prospects - Darius Butler Profile

NFL Draft: Darius Butler rates among top cornerbacks for NFL Draft - South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com

 

[ausbacker]

Edelman had 321 punt return yards on 21 returns (15.3 YPR), but 94 of those yards were from one return for TD. You take away that one return and his punt return average drops to 11.35 Yards per return which is pretty average. I watched the games and he had some flashes of great returns, but overall he was average. If Price shows in the preseason he can be the punt returner, Edelman becomes expendable in this area.

As for being biased, I am not. I personally don't care about Tate other than I root for all the Pats' draft picks to pan out and loved Edelman's potential after his rookie season. I just think people are jumping to too many conclusions after one preseason game where most of the starters on both teams didn't play. It is the Bam Childress affect.

I think Tate's spot is pretty safe. He will probably be given one more year to prove himself especially since most of his problems last year were mental over phyiscal and has has the physical skills to be a good starter if he can hold onto the ball. As for Tate being an afterthought at the end of the year, you do realize he had 2 catches for 82 yards and TD in week 17? Tate was not the picture of consistency and definitely needs to improve from his first year as a player, but again last year was his first year really playing and his play was not nearly as bad as people made it out to be.

Tate is a guy that people had huge expectations on and failed to deliver right away and now people want to dump on the guy. He has shown flashes of brilliance last year as well as a lack of concentration.

I'm interested to read when people had huge expectations on Tate? I've never observed that, more the optimistic hope that he'll amount to something more than lucky to keep his roster sport or eternally injured.

 

[condon84]

We need more players like Tate and Butler.....

 

[dhamz]

Edelman had 321 punt return yards on 21 returns (15.3 YPR), but 94 of those yards were from one return for TD. You take away that one return and his punt return average drops to 11.35 Yards per return which is pretty average. I watched the games and he had some flashes of great returns, but overall he was average. If Price shows in the preseason he can be the punt returner, Edelman becomes expendable in this area.

As for being biased, I am not. I personally don't care about Tate other than I root for all the Pats' draft picks to pan out and loved Edelman's potential after his rookie season. I just think people are jumping to too many conclusions after one preseason game where most of the starters on both teams didn't play. It is the Bam Childress affect.

I think Tate's spot is pretty safe. He will probably be given one more year to prove himself especially since most of his problems last year were mental over phyiscal and has has the physical skills to be a good starter if he can hold onto the ball. As for Tate being an afterthought at the end of the year, you do realize he had 2 catches for 82 yards and TD in week 17? Tate was not the picture of consistency and definitely needs to improve from his first year as a player, but again last year was his first year really playing and his play was not nearly as bad as people made it out to be.

Tate is a guy that people had huge expectations on and failed to deliver right away and now people want to dump on the guy. He has shown flashes of brilliance last year as well as a lack of concentration.

You are aware BB didn't play his starting WRs in week 17 last year? Price and Edelman also had very good pass catching numbers in Week 17. Tate had 9 catches the last 10 games including playoffs. He was an afterthought in the passing game.

You can also play with Tate's KR numbers the same as Edelman's PR numbers. His last 13 games were 28 returns 564 yds or 20 a return.

I think it makes little sense to give either player too much credit for his week 17 production or to discount their big plays in the return game when evealuating how they performed in 2010.

 

[fumbrunner]

What posters say and who they bash is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is there are limited roster spots for any given position. Some players progress and earn a spot, others do not. Can anyone honestly say that Tate has done enough to beat out Price for a spot IF there is only one spot between them? BB may choose to keep both.

As for Butler, he has not performed up to expectations. But if you are talking about a dimeback, he or Wilhite will suffice. I am glad that Arrington has performed as well as he has. It gives the Pats someone to play nickel without putting those two stiffs out there.

 

[Rob0729]

You are aware BB didn't play his starting WRs in week 17 last year? Price and Edelman also had very good pass catching numbers in Week 17. Tate had 9 catches the last 10 games including playoffs. He was an afterthought in the passing game.

You can also play with Tate's KR numbers the same as Edelman's PR numbers. His last 13 games were 28 returns 564 yds or 20 a return.

I think it makes little sense to give either player too much credit for his week 17 production or to discount their big plays in the return game when evealuating how they performed in 2010.

I admit that I forgot that the starters didn't play the last game last year. That is my bad.

Tate was still far more of a receiver than Edelman last year. He had more yards and TDs in the Minnesotta game than Edelman had all last year.Tate had 101 yards and a TD in that game vs. 86 yards and no TDs for the entire season last year for Edelman in which you point out Edeman got in a game where the start sat (40 of Edelman's 86 yards came in that game). Edelman at this point is just a special teamer. Tate can at least give some production at WR. Right now they have two pure special teamers on the roster at WR (Edelman and Slater). I don't know if they can keep two.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm interested to read when people had huge expectations on Tate? I've never observed that, more the optimistic hope that he'll amount to something more than lucky to keep his roster sport or eternally injured.

When Tate was drafted, people went way overboard on the guy. There was more than optimistic hope. A lot of people thought he was going to be a star.

 

[nnmnmmnn]

When Tate was drafted, people went way overboard on the guy. There was more than optimistic hope. A lot of people thought he was going to be a star.

I agree, I thought he was mostly brought in as a return guy, and have never understood the dissapoinent that he didn't turn into a #1 receiver.

 

[HowardRoark]

When Tate was drafted, people went way overboard on the guy. There was more than optimistic hope. A lot of people thought he was going to be a star.

I just have trouble seeing his upside. Brady was never comfortable with him last year, and if he hasn't had time with him this TC I don't see that changing. Not to mention his KR role has become less important with the rule changes.

 

[dhamz]

I admit that I forgot that the starters didn't play the last game last year. That is my bad.

Tate was still far more of a receiver than Edelman last year. He had more yards and TDs in the Minnesotta game than Edelman had all last year.Tate had 101 yards and a TD in that game vs. 86 yards and no TDs for the entire season last year for Edelman in which you point out Edeman got in a game where the start sat (40 of Edelman's 86 yards came in that game). Edelman at this point is just a special teamer. Tate can at least give some production at WR. Right now they have two pure special teamers on the roster at WR (Edelman and Slater). I don't know if they can keep two.

My last thoughts on the issue:

I think it is a reach to call Edelman a pure special teamer. He is a slot WR on a team that starts a guy who over the last few years has been arguably the most productive slot WR of all time. When Welker was hurt in 2009, Edelman was productive in that role.

They have 2 highly productive starters returning at WR. They traded for a 3rd. Price is a relatively high draft pick coming off a redhsirt year. They usually don't cut guys like that unless they are either totally lost or a problem in other ways and based on practice reports he isn't.

The questions at that point become more about do you carry a FB or an extra OL or DL as opposed to extra WRs. Is there another guy you feel comfortable with returning kicks or punts or do you even value kick returns this year with the rules. The roster decisions are always a delicate blend of this year and the future. Does the age and contract status of the top 3 WRs make them keep an extra young WR?

Edelman and Tate will both be on NFL rosters this year. I can see plenty of scenarios where one, the other or both are on the Pats 53 breaking camp. But either of them being released or traded wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

[Ron Sellers]

If the Pats arent going to shop around for another CB then Butler is better than whats behind him on the depth chart.

Beyond Mcourty, Bodden and Arrington, they would be in trouble if someone is out for an extended time IMO. Then youre again relying on players who dont have a good track record hoping they will get it.

Only 2 other ball clubs had a worse receiving defense than the Pats last season. NFL Stats: by Team Category

I saw you make this same argument in another thread and to me it is nonsense. Please tell me what team at this or any other position would not also "be in trouble" if a player who is 4th on their depth chart suddenly becomes 1st on their depth chart.


You can't do it, can you? Yet you continue to trot that same line out over and over again; why is that?


As for the stats that you quoted, how did you come to the conclusion that it is all Darius Butler's fault that they were ranked as low as they were when he wasn't even a starter?

 

[crowell33]

Butler's UPSIDE on the Pats right now looks like CB #4. That's disappointing for where he was picked.

Tate is viewed a bit unfairly because, as the speed guy, he was the best hope to directly replace Moss. That said, he hasn't show much reason to keep his job.

Being almost good enough to be a quality NFL player is a heck of an athletic accomplishment, but it's not going to win you much respect on a message board. (I think I'm one of the few people who ever gives those props.)

Having Butler as a #4 CB terrifies me. Any of the Right, Left, or Star ( slot ) CBs get hurt and he's on the field.

 

[patchick]

These guys were 41/83 overall and are entering their 3rd seasons.

Butler the other hand... he was drafted 41st overall. When you draft a guy there you're not looking for a solid 4,5, or 6 guy at that position.

Isn't this the real story? Butler and Tate are disappointments relative to their draft position, so that starts everybody off from a position of negativity and bitterness. But the draft is long past; it just doesn't matter any more.

Here's what I see: Butler is is the 4th-best CB on the roster behind McCourty, Bodden and Arrington, potentially 5th if Dowling gets healthy and comes on strong. He's not a factor on special teams. He's competing with guys like Sergio Brown to fill out the DB roster, and my guess is he makes it.

Tate is the team's best KR, but that job should be somewhat less important this year with the new kickoff line. He appears to be behind Welker, Ochocinco, Branch, Edelman, Price and Hernandez in the WR pecking order. He's likely to be a pure numbers victim unless Branch or Edelman becomes a surprise cut.

 

[sbpatfan]

Butler's UPSIDE on the Pats right now looks like CB #4. That's disappointing for where he was picked.

Tate is viewed a bit unfairly because, as the speed guy, he was the best hope to directly replace Moss. That said, he hasn't show much reason to keep his job.

Being almost good enough to be a quality NFL player is a heck of an athletic accomplishment, but it's not going to win you much respect on a message board. (I think I'm one of the few people who ever gives those props.)

That's a good point. Tate was suppose to replace Moss. People are just looking at Price to replace Tate. That's a pretty big difference in shoe sizes.

Check out these stats for two receivers last year. The first one, Tate, is considered a disappointment. The second one plays for a AFC powerhouse team, and is considered by fans and the media to be up and coming.

Age 23
REC: 24
YDS: 423
AVG: 18.0
TD: 3

Age 24
REC: 28
YDS: 376
AVG: 13.4
TD: 2

Also, keep in mind the first guy also had 5 rushes for 64 yards and another 1,057 on KR /w 2 TDs.

Just something to consider.

 

[crowell33]

Isn't this the real story? Butler and Tate are disappointments relative to their draft position, so that starts everybody off from a position of negativity and bitterness. But the draft is long past; it just doesn't matter any more.

Here's what I see: Butler is is the 4th-best CB on the roster behind McCourty, Bodden and Arrington, potentially 5th if Dowling gets healthy and comes on strong. He's not a factor on special teams. He's competing with guys like Sergio Brown to fill out the DB roster, and my guess is he makes it.

Tate is the team's best KR, but that job should be somewhat less important this year with the new kickoff line. He appears to be behind Welker, Ochocinco, Branch, Edelman, Price and Hernandez in the WR pecking order. He's likely to be a pure numbers victim unless Branch or Edelman becomes a surprise cut.

On Butler, I predict a free agent signing, or a player cut from another roster, replacing Butler as the #5 corner.