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In defense of Tate and Butler

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by livinginthe past, Aug 13, 2011.

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  1. livinginthe past

    livinginthe past Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Its interesting watching the double standards at play when it comes to Butler and Tate.

    I'm not going to try and convince anybody that these guys have had fantatsic starts to their career but the way they constantly are ripped astounds me.

    Tate 'can't get seperation', 'can't run routes' and is 'only a kick returner'.

    Butler 'can't cover anybody', 'gives up huge cushions' and 'doesn't make plays on the ball'.

    So on one hand we are expecting Tate to abuse opposing DB's on a regular basis (because those guys are obviously allowed to suck) - and yet Butler should be a shut down CB not allowing WR's a sniff of the ball.

    Its gotten to the stage where good performance from one of their positional peers is used as a stick to beat them with (see Taylor Price and Devin McCourty).

    Its not like we are even expecting either guy to be a starter - probably WR#5 and CB#4 - for those roles they are young, cheap and still have upside.
     
  2. blackglass3

    blackglass3 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No Jersey Selected

    Doesn't matter...the Patsfans FU Crew have moved on from bashing Meriweather and are aiming their hate at Butler and Tate. Reason and logic be damned.
     
  3. randomk1

    randomk1 In the Starting Line-Up

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    Ummm..yeah...that tends to be a problem when that's exactly what you're supposed to be doing or not doing.
     
  4. livinginthe past

    livinginthe past Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    #12 Jersey

    Those 'quotes' were fans perceptions, not actual quantifiable reality.

    Just some examples of the overstated hyperbole alot of fans indulge themselves in.
     
  5. randomk1

    randomk1 In the Starting Line-Up

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    C'mon are you saying those perceptions aren't true?

    These guys were 41/83 overall and are entering their 3rd seasons.

    I would really like to see them show something this year but i doubt it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  6. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I wish I could share your sentiment. One gets the feeling that 2011 may be the make or break season for both players.

    The more quality players the Patriots have the better for the Patriots. I'd very much like for them to both show their best abilities on a consistent basis.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  7. livinginthe past

    livinginthe past Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    There are busts all over the draft every year - I think Tate is on a healthier career curve right now.

    It depends what you expect them to show you - at least Tates contribution can be statistically quantified - Butlers; not so easily.

    What you are going to get it is people jumping all over Butler as soon as some other teams WR makes a couple of receptions against him (ie that receiver doing his job).

    Tate is very versatile, he's shown some real flashes in the end around - has made some highlight reel catches - he just needs to add some consistency.

    As it happens I feel we are very deep in both of their positions - WR and DB.

    Tate is probably sitting at WR#5 right now - if the other guys play as projected its going to be hard for him to break out huge stats.

    Versatility and flexibility is going to be his calling card.
     
  8. livinginthe past

    livinginthe past Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Agreed, actually.

    The Patriots are a consistently elite team - they aren't going to stay there by carrying passengers.

    Both guys do need to step up and improve this year - the standard around them is improving by the day - if they want to get new contracts.

    However, the lower ceiling of expectations for both should see them able to fulfill their predicted roles on the team (WR#5 and CB#4).

    Their is alot of talent ahead of them - thats a good thing, not a bad thing.
     
  9. Fencer

    Fencer Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #12 Jersey

    Butler's UPSIDE on the Pats right now looks like CB #4. That's disappointing for where he was picked.

    Tate is viewed a bit unfairly because, as the speed guy, he was the best hope to directly replace Moss. That said, he hasn't show much reason to keep his job.

    Being almost good enough to be a quality NFL player is a heck of an athletic accomplishment, but it's not going to win you much respect on a message board. (I think I'm one of the few people who ever gives those props.)
     
  10. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree which is why the Patriots remain ahead of the curve, competition for spots. The reality is if you're no good or don't fit the system, you are moved on.

    Butler strikes me as the type of player that's got way too much going on in his head hurting his ability on the field. It would be interesting to see him play instinctive football (just to see what he's like).

    Tate, well I've made my opinion on him and the Patriots well known. There's no need for repeat histrionics.
     
  11. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This points to the reality that the draft, at best, is a crap shoot. Every team has their share of misses..

    In a secondary of Bodden, McCourty, Wilhite, Arrington and Dowling.. being 4th or maybe even 6th is not that bad, there is not a lot of room for error. He may be jettisoned..

    The WR depth chart does not even list Tate, he is considered a special teams player on this team...
     
  12. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yep, exactly. And for all of the good players that we've gotten in the past 3 yrs via the draft, it's only natural to expect some misses too. I think people tend to get frustrated due to the nature of the positions (WR/CB have been typical sore spots for BB drafting), and the 'higher' round picks. With the high picks comes a sense of expectancy, and we all get excited etc.

    Look at Brace AND Butler. Both 2nd rounders, yet both have tremedously underachieved so far, (although Brace has had moments to make us believe he'll make it). Yet, as you say--that's just the law of averages. Some are hits, and some are misses. At the end of the day, all we can hope for is more hits than misses. I'll never forget the '06/'07 drafts---my gosh were those bad!

    As far as livinginthepast's point--I do understand and agree with him to a certain extent. It is wrong and unfair to 'give up' on a player under these circumstances, I just think people get anxious/antsy and are tired of what they perceive as the 'same old thing.' I don't believe that Tate has underperformed as 1/2 as bad as Butler. At the end of the day, I think they both make the squad anyway, and we'll likely be continuing to have posters bag on them/defend them too. It's just the nature of the beast on the discussion boards.

    There's always a whipping boy or two, and there's always going to be people who want to give them more of an opportunity to showcase their talents. This is also another reason why I believe that BB will not cut or trade EITHER of them, as I believe that he will give them both a good opportunity again.

    I was surprised at hearing your statement that Tate is not on the depth chart, and is only listed as a ST player. I assume that he is just fine, as far as his job goes, and the same with Butler as a 4/5 CB.
     
  13. dhamz

    dhamz In the Starting Line-Up

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    So two 3rd year guys who have shown very limited on the field production and that almost all agree are on the roster bubble are above criticism?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  14. HowardRoark

    HowardRoark On the Game Day Roster

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    I wouldn't quite call Tate a 3rd year guy, given his season ending injury during his first season.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  15. capetide

    capetide Practice Squad Player

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    Perhaps you can let me know what you saw Thursday night that suggested that Butler covers effectively, doesn't give huge cushions, and makes plays on the ball.
     
  16. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Who agreed Tate is on the bubble? Certainly not Belichick. The fact that Tate didn't play Thrusday night is a good sign that his roster spot is locked. Pretty much all of the healthy scratches for veterans on Thursday night were players who already had jobs locked up. It is safe to assume Tate is one of them.
     
  17. Rob0729

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    The Patriots have never had an official depth chart under Belichick. I think the staff at Patriots Football Weekly do it for the team and right now they have him listed as Welker's primary back up.

    Official Website of the New England Patriots | Games & Stats - Depth Chart

    So saying that Tate is not even listed on the WR depth chart is grossly inaccurate unless you acknowledge that Brady isn't listed on the QB depth chart because there is no depth chart.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  18. Patriot 37

    Patriot 37 On the Game Day Roster

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    Even though Tate and Butler are on the roster bubble I wouldn't compare them. Tate was a late 3rd who has played only 1 year and hasn't played in camp this year. He was a very KR and made some plays although he was inconsistant. Because of the numbers he might not make the team but I see him still an NFL player some where.

    Butler was an early 2, who had two healthy seasons and contributed almost as a CB or on ST. He was biggest hole (either as CB or nickel) on the team last year. Based on his performance against the Jags and some camp reports he doesn't look like he's improved.

    There are a couple guys still unsigned Hayden, Randall Gay; is Hobbs healthy ? I'd like to see another CB signed especially with the talk the Ras-I will be moved to S.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  19. Triumph

    Triumph Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Thank you for speaking the truth.

    The Pats need someone better than Butler.
     
  20. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That is the misconception that too many people have about Tate. Tate is not a "SPEED" guy. Never was. He was a guy who used vision and quickness to excel at kick returns and punt returns. And that was starting to translate into improved receiving skills as a senior in college until he blew out his knee.
     
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