In defense of Tate and Butler

[Patriot Missile]

Having Butler as a #4 CB terrifies me. Any of the Right, Left, or Star ( slot ) CBs get hurt and he's on the field.

I think every fan of every team is terrified of their 4th CB so I don't think you are alone in that department. I'm not defending the guy. He is average and must learn to utilize his athletism and make decisive decisions out there. I just want to see what he can do with some of the additions that have been added up front. It's possible with QB hurries, pressures that Butler may be put in better positions to make plays out of the nickel or slot.
He couldn't of been too bad. 2 of 10 in the 2nd half. 9 of 16? in 1st.

When the season begins and Bodden is giving up 5 or 6 completions to his side because teams are afraid throw McCourty's way are we going to crucify him too? Just kind of wondering? If a team passes 15 of 30 that is considered a good game for the defense percentage wise i believe. Passes are going to be completed against our defense and they are trying to attack are weakest areas. Get used to it. Besides the Packers I don't think there is a team in the NFL that goes 4 deep CB wise.

 

[patfanken]

Having Butler as a #4 CB terrifies me. Any of the Right, Left, or Star ( slot ) CBs get hurt and he's on the field.

You've made your position clear, despite the many posts that point out other ways to look at it. Its almost like if you post the same thing over and over again, it will somehow come true. It BB thought the same thing, he'd have been long gone. Fortunately YOU aren't making the personnel decisions for the Pats.

BTW- Its not that you aren't entitled to your opinion. Its that you make it OVER AND OVER again, without bringing anything new to the table to support your position.

How would you respond when one of the reporters (It might have been Bedard- but it was among Ian's Saturday links) who after grading the game had Butler having just one negative play. Granted I take the source with a grain of salt (any of those reporters, not just Bedard), but its one view that contradicts the knee jerk analysis that battered Butler right after the game. Also how would respond to Patriot Missle's excellent point?

 

[randomk1]

That is the misconception that too many people have about Tate. Tate is not a "SPEED" guy. Never was. He was a guy who used vision and quickness to excel at kick returns and punt returns. And that was starting to translate into improved receiving skills as a senior in college until he blew out his knee.

Yup...when i heard people on this forum talking about Tate's speed and **** i was like what the hell? What i see on tape doesn't look like an extremely fast player.

 

[spacecrime]

So on one hand we are expecting Tate to abuse opposing DB's on a regular basis (because those guys are obviously allowed to suck) - and yet Butler should be a shut down CB not allowing WR's a sniff of the ball

???? There is no double standard. What are you talking about? The only standard to make the team is to play the position very well. Neither guy does it.

Here's the standard: To win games the winning team's CB's must make plays on the opposing teams WRs, and the winning team's WRs must make plays on the losing team's CBS. One standard: play better than the guy on the other team.

Butler does not play as well as Bodden, Arrington or McCourty. I don't see how you can argue that. If we had five corners that played like Butler, we'd go 3-13.

I don't know what your issue is with Tate. No one is asking him to abuse DBs. What people are asking is from him to be healthy, get one the field, and when the ball hits his hands, it shouldn't then hit the ground. Until he does that, he isn't good enough. I cannot picture Tate making the play that Taylor made Thursday night, but if he wants to make the team, he has to play better than Taylor.

I thought Tate was a good pickup, a steal in the third round. He could still be, but he hasn't shown it yet. If we keep five WRs, he is the odd man out, not because of a double standard involving Butler, but because of a single standard involving Welker, Branch, Cococinco, Edelman and Price: whoever plays better wins. And that ain;t Tate, not this week.

Butler can still make the team, too. All he has to do is pass the single standard for CBs: Play better that the WRs you face, make many more good plays than bad ones, and have no REALLY bad ones.

 

[spacecrime]

Butler is a solid #4-5 CB considering his time in the system.

Ture, and if roster spots were based on seniority, he'd be a lock to make the team. I wouldn't term him solid at this point. The best he can hope for is that Wilhite and Williams don't play very well, unless he can somehow return to the great form he had his rookie year.

 

[spacecrime]

I agree, cut every db who ever allows an NFL WR and QB complete a pass in front of him.

Sarcasm, the last resort of those who have nothing of substance to respond with. I'm sure you know that all DBs allow some passes, and that you should cut the guys who consistently don't make plays and are not as good as the other guys playing the position.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

They both accepted my facebook friend requests so I say they stay

 

[The Boston Patriot]

There are busts all over the draft every year - I think Tate is on a healthier career curve right now.

It depends what you expect them to show you - at least Tates contribution can be statistically quantified - Butlers; not so easily.

What you are going to get it is people jumping all over Butler as soon as some other teams WR makes a couple of receptions against him (ie that receiver doing his job).

Tate is very versatile, he's shown some real flashes in the end around - has made some highlight reel catches - he just needs to add some consistency.

As it happens I feel we are very deep in both of their positions - WR and DB.

Tate is probably sitting at WR#5 right now - if the other guys play as projected its going to be hard for him to break out huge stats.

Versatility and flexibility is going to be his calling card.

Please, you are seriously suggesting the Butler is something other than a JAG? I think you could go the the dregs of the UDFA list and do as well. If he were waived he might not get another shot in the NFL.

There is nothing wrong with Tate that a functioning brain and a new pair of hands wouldn't fix. Unfortunately, neither are in the cards for Mr. Tate.

 

[mgteich]

Both these players are in a fight for the last roster spot at their positions. They are NOT expected to be starters. They are among the bottom 6 of the roster should they make the team. Both Tate and Butler are as good as other nfl #5 WR receivers or #5 corners.

It is great that we have others fighting these players for their roster spots!
=====================================================

TATE
We have 5 receivers ready to go for 2011, 3 vets, a STer and a top young prospect who is developing well.

So, where is Tate? How could he possibly make the team? He is a young receiver who is also a returner. Edelman is in the same situation. It is likely that they are competing for one position. IMHO, if they do well enough, they could both make it at the expense of the 5th RB, at least for half a season while Faulk is on the PUP list.

Belichick will decide whether either Edelman or Tate have any future with the patriots. It is possible that one or both could be kept as returners if no one else is good enough.

========================
BUTLER
We have 3 starting quality corners, 3 starting safeties, plus a highly drafted Dowling. How much more do we need? Are there any more reps for defensive backs?

IMHO, there are 2-3 more defensive back spots, but none of these may get any reps except as special teamers or in case of a couple of injuries. However, i would note that Dowling could be the emergency backup at both safety and corner.

So, the focus on the last spots should be special teams. That is why many of us have Brown and Wilhite in those roster spots. Butler could certainly make the squad, but it seems unlikely at this point.

 

[Deus Irae]

Its interesting watching the double standards at play when it comes to Butler and Tate.

I'm not going to try and convince anybody that these guys have had fantatsic starts to their career but the way they constantly are ripped astounds me.

Tate 'can't get seperation', 'can't run routes' and is 'only a kick returner'.

Butler 'can't cover anybody', 'gives up huge cushions' and 'doesn't make plays on the ball'.

So on one hand we are expecting Tate to abuse opposing DB's on a regular basis (because those guys are obviously allowed to suck) - and yet Butler should be a shut down CB not allowing WR's a sniff of the ball.

Its gotten to the stage where good performance from one of their positional peers is used as a stick to beat them with (see Taylor Price and Devin McCourty).

Its not like we are even expecting either guy to be a starter - probably WR#5 and CB#4 - for those roles they are young, cheap and still have upside.

So, what's the double standard? Is it that people hold Butler and Tate accountable for their struggles?

And, yes, Tate should be able to abuse opposing DBs on a regular basis, and Butler should be a quality CB. That's what they were drafted for.

 

[DaBruinz]

Please, you are seriously suggesting the Butler is something other than a JAG? I think you could go the the dregs of the UDFA list and do as well. If he were waived he might not get another shot in the NFL.

There is nothing wrong with Tate that a functioning brain and a new pair of hands wouldn't fix. Unfortunately, neither are in the cards for Mr. Tate.

Christian Morton disagrees with you.

 

[DaBruinz]

So, what's the double standard? Is it that people hold Butler and Tate accountable for their struggles?

And, yes, Tate should be able to abuse opposing DBs on a regular basis, and Butler should be a quality CB. That's what they were drafted for.

Why should Tate be able to abuse opposing DBs on a regular basis? Because of the misconception that he's a speed demon the way Moss was? Moss was running in the 4.3 to 4.4 range. Tate was a 4.5 guy. Bit of a difference there.

Tate was also very raw in terms of his skills coming out of college. He was doing very well until he blew out his knee and lost 1.5 years worth of football.

He seemed to be getting on track, slowly. But too many people have this misconception that he was some kind of burner because of his excellent return skills. Those skills showed off his vision and quickness more than his speed.

 

[crowell33]

You've made your position clear, despite the many posts that point out other ways to look at it. Its almost like if you post the same thing over and over again, it will somehow come true. It BB thought the same thing, he'd have been long gone. Fortunately YOU aren't making the personnel decisions for the Pats.

BTW- Its not that you aren't entitled to your opinion. Its that you make it OVER AND OVER again, without bringing anything new to the table to support your position.

How would you respond when one of the reporters (It might have been Bedard- but it was among Ian's Saturday links) who after grading the game had Butler having just one negative play. Granted I take the source with a grain of salt (any of those reporters, not just Bedard), but its one view that contradicts the knee jerk analysis that battered Butler right after the game. Also how would respond to Patriot Missle's excellent point?

I'd prefer a free agent corner or someone from the waiver wire on cut down day. This is Butler's third year, I just don't see the improvement

 

[crowell33]

I think every fan of every team is terrified of their 4th CB so I don't think you are alone in that department. I'm not defending the guy. He is average and must learn to utilize his athletism and make decisive decisions out there. I just want to see what he can do with some of the additions that have been added up front. It's possible with QB hurries, pressures that Butler may be put in better positions to make plays out of the nickel or slot.
He couldn't of been too bad. 2 of 10 in the 2nd half. 9 of 16? in 1st.

When the season begins and Bodden is giving up 5 or 6 completions to his side because teams are afraid throw McCourty's way are we going to crucify him too? Just kind of wondering? If a team passes 15 of 30 that is considered a good game for the defense percentage wise i believe. Passes are going to be completed against our defense and they are trying to attack are weakest areas. Get used to it. Besides the Packers I don't think there is a team in the NFL that goes 4 deep CB wise.

I don't agree that Bodden will be picked on opposite McCourty. I felt that Arrington held up well opposite McCourty last season and I expect Bodden to play as well or better than Arrington.

 

[Triumph]

I saw you make this same argument in another thread and to me it is nonsense. Please tell me what team at this or any other position would not also "be in trouble" if a player who is 4th on their depth chart suddenly becomes 1st on their depth chart.

Who is saying Butler would be 1st?

Assuming he makes the team and is the 4th CB, he would move up to 3rd and see more playing time and thats trouble.

You can't do it, can you? Yet you continue to trot that same line out over and over again; why is that?

What evidence is there that Butler is improving? Please tell us?

It sounds as if the Jags were looking for him last night.

As for the stats that you quoted, how did you come to the conclusion that it is all Darius Butler's fault that they were ranked as low as they were when he wasn't even a starter?

I did not say it was all his fault.

Its about IMPROVING your weaknesses. Improving the 30th ranked receiving defense in the NFL. Do you really think that NE is going to win another Championship with a seconday like a sieve? All it takes is for Brady to have a bad game where the offense cannot keep scoring and its all over.

 

[Ring 6]

My last thoughts on the issue:

I think it is a reach to call Edelman a pure special teamer. He is a slot WR on a team that starts a guy who over the last few years has been arguably the most productive slot WR of all time. When Welker was hurt in 2009, Edelman was productive in that role.

Outside of week 17 when the starters sat, Edelman had 46 receiving yards all season.
How can you call that anything but a specail teamer who get an occasional chance on offense?
Welker was not 100% last year and played fewer snaps than ever as he was getting back to form. Edelman had more chance to be on the field as Welkers backup than he would have in any other season.

Edelman and Tate will both be on NFL rosters this year. I can see plenty of scenarios where one, the other or both are on the Pats 53 breaking camp. But either of them being released or traded wouldn't surprise me at all.

This I agree with 100%.

 

[Ring 6]

Both these players are in a fight for the last roster spot at their positions. They are NOT expected to be starters. They are among the bottom 6 of the roster should they make the team. Both Tate and Butler are as good as other nfl #5 WR receivers or #5 corners.

It is great that we have others fighting these players for their roster spots!
=====================================================

TATE
We have 5 receivers ready to go for 2011, 3 vets, a STer and a top young prospect who is developing well.

So, where is Tate? How could he possibly make the team? He is a young receiver who is also a returner. Edelman is in the same situation. It is likely that they are competing for one position. IMHO, if they do well enough, they could both make it at the expense of the 5th RB, at least for half a season while Faulk is on the PUP list.

Belichick will decide whether either Edelman or Tate have any future with the patriots. It is possible that one or both could be kept as returners if no one else is good enough.

========================
BUTLER
We have 3 starting quality corners, 3 starting safeties, plus a highly drafted Dowling. How much more do we need? Are there any more reps for defensive backs?

IMHO, there are 2-3 more defensive back spots, but none of these may get any reps except as special teamers or in case of a couple of injuries. However, i would note that Dowling could be the emergency backup at both safety and corner.

So, the focus on the last spots should be special teams. That is why many of us have Brown and Wilhite in those roster spots. Butler could certainly make the squad, but it seems unlikely at this point.

Are you saying Wilhite makes the team in order to play special teams?

 

[Patriot Missile]

I don't agree that Bodden will be picked on opposite McCourty. I felt that Arrington held up well opposite McCourty last season and I expect Bodden to play as well or better than Arrington.

"Picked on" are your words.. QB's feeling more comfortable throwing away from McCourty is my opinion.

 

[Triple-T]

Belichick cannot afford to cut a guy like Branch until he knows OchoCinco can handle the starting role and knows the playbook and someone steps up until #3. This season is going to be different than any other anyway because there was no offseason. Any rule or tendency that Belichick had is out the window.

Look at it this way. Both Sammy Morris and Kevin Faulk are among his favorite players and unless Faulk starts the season on PUP, one or both of them are going to be among the final cuts.

Personally, I think Edelman is more of a bubble player. He doesn't see the field because he is redundant to Welker and really hasn't shown much since his rookie season. He had 7 catches as a WR last year and was an average punt returner. Tate on the other hand was a top kick returner (two returned for a TD) and had 432 yards and 3 TDs in what was a defacto rookie season since he was injured his rookie season.

Second in the league behind only Devin Hester and then leading everyone else in average by more yards than he trails Hester. He's significantly better than average. His problem is that he truly is a welker clone and that makes reps very hard to come by. He's going to have a nice NFL career. It just might not be in NE.

 

[Triple-T]

Edelman had 321 punt return yards on 21 returns (15.3 YPR), but 94 of those yards were from one return for TD. You take away that one return and his punt return average drops to 11.35 Yards per return which is pretty average.

Do that math on every other PR and Edelman is still #2 in the NFL behind Hester. Bad argument you have going here. Edelman in the open field is an excellent runner. Criticize his route running or concentration, if you like, but he's a very good PR.