In defense of Tate and Butler

[dhamz]

Who agreed Tate is on the bubble? Certainly not Belichick. The fact that Tate didn't play Thrusday night is a good sign that his roster spot is locked. Pretty much all of the healthy scratches for veterans on Thursday night were players who already had jobs locked up. It is safe to assume Tate is one of them.

You are aware Tate is hurt and not practicing. That is why he didn't play not because BB was lumping him in with Brady, Branch, Welker, and Wilfork as locks for the team?

Or do you consider Josh Barrett a lock for the 53 since he was held out?

 

[Patriot 37]

Who agreed Tate is on the bubble? Certainly not Belichick. The fact that Tate didn't play Thrusday night is a good sign that his roster spot is locked. Pretty much all of the healthy scratches for veterans on Thursday night were players who already had jobs locked up. It is safe to assume Tate is one of them.

Tate's been hurt almost the entire training camp that's why he didn't play.

Question for you, which WR do they cut or do they keep 7 ?

Ocho, Branch, Welker, Edelman, Price, Slater or Tate. I 'd love to keep all of them even if all Tate does is return kicks, but I doubt they can.

Tate may make the team I hope he does, but he is 100% on the bubble.

 

[Rob0729]

You are aware Tate is hurt and not practicing. That is why he didn't play not because BB was lumping him in with Brady, Branch, Welker, and Wilfork as locks for the team?

Or do you consider Josh Barrett a lock for the 53 since he was held out?

My bad about that. I didn't realize he didn't practice. Still doesn't mean he is a bubble player. He was the #3 WR last year and a top kick returner in the league.

 

[DaBruinz]

There are a couple guys still unsigned Hayden, Randall Gay; is Hobbs healthy ? I'd like to see another CB signed especially with the talk the Ras-I will be moved to S.

Hobbs is not healthy and has retired due to injury..

 

[Rob0729]

Tate's been hurt almost the entire training camp that's why he didn't play.

Question for you, which WR do they cut or do they keep 7 ?

Ocho, Branch, Welker, Edelman, Price, Slater or Tate. I 'd love to keep all of them even if all Tate does is return kicks.

Tate may make the team I hope he does, but he is 100% on the bubble.

100% on the bubble? Just like Matt Cassel was in 2008. Everyone was convinced that Cassel was on the bubble and likely cut in the preseason of 2008. He ended up starting when Brady went down.

None of us know what Belichick is thinking. People predict players who are roster locks who Belichick cuts and people who are bubble players and become starters. For all we know, Deion Branch could be the odd man out at the end of the day. Considering Branch's age, injury history, and salary; Belichick could consider cutting ties with him if OchoCinco works out and Tate or Price can take the #3 WR slot.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

Butler is a solid #4-5 CB considering his time in the system.

Tate on the other hand probably has his work cut out for him to make the team.

 

[dhamz]

None of us know what Belichick is thinking. People predict players who are roster locks who Belichick cuts and people who are bubble players and become starters. For all we know, Deion Branch could be the odd man out at the end of the day. Considering Branch's age, injury history, and salary; Belichick could consider cutting ties with him if OchoCinco works out and Tate or Price can take the #3 WR slot.

I think it would be very rare for BB to cut veteran like Branch who has been as productive for the Pats as he has late in camp. Has there been one since Milloy?

Usually he lets those guys go early in the off-season or at the start of camp likely as a result of things he learned from the Milloy release.

 

[jays52]

Thursday night Butler played about as poorly as an NFL corner can play. He was getting worked over by Gabbert and a no-name backup. That's bad. Not only that, but it was clear that Jax was going right after his ass. Even when it was obvious that they were attacking him he did nothing to compete harder. I'm not one for bashing players but if Butler continues to play that way he doesn't deserve a roster spot.

 

[Rob0729]

I think it would be very rare for BB to cut veteran like Branch who has been as productive for the Pats as he has late in camp. Has there been one since Milloy?

Usually he lets those guys go early in the off-season or at the start of camp likely as a result of things he learned from the Milloy release.

Belichick cannot afford to cut a guy like Branch until he knows OchoCinco can handle the starting role and knows the playbook and someone steps up until #3. This season is going to be different than any other anyway because there was no offseason. Any rule or tendency that Belichick had is out the window.

Look at it this way. Both Sammy Morris and Kevin Faulk are among his favorite players and unless Faulk starts the season on PUP, one or both of them are going to be among the final cuts.

Personally, I think Edelman is more of a bubble player. He doesn't see the field because he is redundant to Welker and really hasn't shown much since his rookie season. He had 7 catches as a WR last year and was an average punt returner. Tate on the other hand was a top kick returner (two returned for a TD) and had 432 yards and 3 TDs in what was a defacto rookie season since he was injured his rookie season.

 

[Sfpat]

Perhaps you can let me know what you saw Thursday night that suggested that Butler covers effectively, doesn't give huge cushions, and makes plays on the ball.

I'm watching the game for the third time. I assume you're upset about the first play of the game when the Jags completed a 5 yard hitch in front of Butler and Butler made the immediate tackle. I agree, cut every db who ever allows an NFL WR and QB complete a pass in front of him.

Next play they run a quick slant to the middle. Seems to be miscommunication between the dbs as Butler thought there would be help in the middle but he quickly recovers and makes the tackle. Again, just the second play of the first preseason game.

Next drive they run a deep seam route on him. Butler all over his man for the incompletion. Later the Cunningham sack where Mallet is looking at Butler but "the receivers are covered."

And I just saw another 5 yard out pattern completed against him. Again immediate tackle and the Jags fail to convert on third down.

So far 3-4 completions against Butler, two of them quick outs for total of 10 yards and the other a quick slant. Wow, he is terrible

And Mallet is 2-2 throwing to the TE.

My guess is BB shares a slightly different opinion about Butler than you do.

 

[BradfordPatsFan]

As others pointed out in other threads, the first two sacks were a direct result of Gabbert holding onto the ball because of the coverage played by Butler, at whom he was looking when he was sacked.

He got beat across the middle once when he tried to make a play, which is what people want him to do.

Butler also gave up completions on 2nd and long and 3rd and long, getting a stop both times, exactly what the coaches expect.

He got crapped on for a wr screen to his side when he was the only defender on his side and got blocked by the other wr on that side.

To those who say he's done nothing in his career here, he had a pretty good rookie year with a few picks including one for a td.

Mostly people get on him for the Jets game last year, where he was bad, but he played much better from late November through the end of the year.

he has not lived up to his billing but he has been as horrible as some would want you to believe.

 

[patsfan13]

I think what get people on Butler's case is that he showed real promise as a rookie and has regressed instead of improving. Instead of being the slot corner, he is in danger of losing his roster slot.


As far as Tate goes he has good speed, he makes plays on ST's, but there is a squeeze and he hasn't shown improvements in his route running. Now perhaps these players might perform better in a different system. I think especially of Tate if the issue is route running, the Pats system is very dependent on the QB and skill players making the same reads. If Tate is unable to do that as well as others that is a problem. Price is showing that ability and it could cost Tate his roster spot.

 

[Haley]

I would never label either as "bad" or "unable" or anything of that sort. Both are talented players.

However, there is limited space on the team and there appear to be some people out-performing these 2 guys.

It is what it is.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm watching the game for the third time. I assume you're upset about the first play of the game when the Jags completed a 5 yard hitch in front of Butler and Butler made the immediate tackle. I agree, cut every db who ever allows an NFL WR and QB complete a pass in front of him.

Next play they run a quick slant to the middle. Seems to be miscommunication between the dbs as Butler thought there would be help in the middle but he quickly recovers and makes the tackle. Again, just the second play of the first preseason game.

Next drive they run a deep seam route on him. Butler all over his man for the incompletion. Later the Cunningham sack where Mallet is looking at Butler but "the receivers are covered."

And I just saw another 5 yard out pattern completed against him. Again immediate tackle and the Jags fail to convert on third down.

So far 3-4 completions against Butler, two of them quick outs for total of 10 yards and the other a quick slant. Wow, he is terrible

And Mallet is 2-2 throwing to the TE.

My guess is BB shares a slightly different opinion about Butler than you do.

And let's not forget on a 3rd and 15 on theJags' 12 yard like where the Pats were playing to stop the Jags from converting a first down, not completing a pass and Butler does his job perfectly by allowing a 14 yard pass, not get a first down and the fans kill him for it. He forces the punt and still people kill him.

I think people are overstating his performance because almost everything else went as good as it could. Also, people want to focus on him because he has been a disapointment.

 

[Sfpat]

He got crapped on for a wr screen to his side when he was the only defender on his side and got blocked by the other wr on that side.

I remember watching the screen yesterday and thinking where is the LB who was supposed to be covering the back. As you said, Butler was all alone on that play and the Jags had numbers.

 

[Patriot 37]

100% on the bubble? Just like Matt Cassel was in 2008. Everyone was convinced that Cassel was on the bubble and likely cut in the preseason of 2008. He ended up starting when Brady went down.

None of us know what Belichick is thinking. People predict players who are roster locks who Belichick cuts and people who are bubble players and become starters. For all we know, Deion Branch could be the odd man out at the end of the day. Considering Branch's age, injury history, and salary; Belichick could consider cutting ties with him if OchoCinco works out and Tate or Price can take the #3 WR slot.

On the bubble doesn't mean he's defininately getting cut. It means he's not untouchable like say Wilfork and he's not camp fodder like Clay Nurse. It means he's one of those guys 45-65 that will be sweating it out at the end of the month.


Are you saying he's a lock to make the 53 man roster ?

 

[patfanken]

I think what get people on Butler's case is that he showed real promise as a rookie and has regressed instead of improving. Instead of being the slot corner, he is in danger of losing his roster slot.

As far as Tate goes he has good speed, he makes plays on ST's, but there is a squeeze and he hasn't shown improvements in his route running. Now perhaps these players might perform better in a different system. I think especially of Tate if the issue is route running, the Pats system is very dependent on the QB and skill players making the same reads. If Tate is unable to do that as well as others that is a problem. Price is showing that ability and it could cost Tate his roster spot.

I agree with your assessment on why Butler is being battered. He didn't progress on what most people thought was a pretty good rookie year. However I still have hopes he can become the solid slot CB that some here hope he can become. I think most of his problems come when he matched up on the outside with bigger/stronger WRs like Edwards. It wasn't an issue of being there, but more a physical mismatch when it came to competing for the ball. While just an inch taller than Butler, Mcourty is MUCH stronger and has a much more physical game than Butler. So its just a matter for fitting the round peg into the round hole....and that's at slot CB.

As to Tate, I highlighted the part that I disagreed with. While the assessment that Tate didn't run his routes to a Brady level of acceptance last season is fair. We really have no idea how well he's improved because he hasn't been on the field much, as I understand it. We all see the dramatic improvement in Price's play. I think we should at least wait until we can see more of Tate to determine if he too has improved that aspect of his game....or not

 

[dhamz]

Personally, I think Edelman is more of a bubble player. He doesn't see the field because he is redundant to Welker and really hasn't shown much since his rookie season. He had 7 catches as a WR last year and was an average punt returner. Tate on the other hand was a top kick returner (two returned for a TD) and had 432 yards and 3 TDs in what was a defacto rookie season since he was injured his rookie season.

I think both Edelman, Price, Tate, Slater, Morris and Brace and a whole bunch of D lineman - essentially anyone fighting for back-up spots at deep positions is on the bubble.

In the case of Tate, I think you might be a little biased.

For example, "Tate was a top KR, Edelman an average PR." Tate was 6th in the NFL in KR avg and tied for 3rd in KR TDs with 2. Edelman was 2nd in PR avg and tied for 3rd in PR TDs with 1.

Neither guy has been a picture of durability. Both have had some brief moments of production at WR - Edelman as a rookie, Tate in couple early games last year. Both were nothing more than afterthoughts at WR at the end of last year. Then BB upgraded the WR spot by acquiring Chad. There is the open question of how valuable kick returns are with the new rules - I have no doubt BB has already decided that question in his own mind.

Edelman and Tate seem like 2 bubble players to me.

 

[Sfpat]

And let's not forget on a 3rd and 15 on theJags' 12 yard like where the Pats were playing to stop the Jags from converting a first down, not completing a pass and Butler does his job perfectly by allowing a 14 yard pass, not get a first down and the fans kill him for it. He forces the punt and still people kill him.

I think people are overstating his performance because almost everything else went as good as it could. Also, people want to focus on him because he has been a disapointment.

And on the 3rd and 15, the Pats blitzed the house leaving Butler alone on his side. He had to play off to prevent a deep ball as he had no safety help.

 

[Rob0729]

On the bubble doesn't mean he's defininately getting cut. It means he's not untouchable like say Wilfork and he's not camp fodder like Clay Nurse. It means he's one of those guys 45-65 that will be sweating it out at the end of the month.


Are you saying he's a lock to make the 53 man roster ?

On the bubble means it is 50-50 or 60-40 that he will be cut. As of right now, we don't even know if there is a 10% chance. If on the bubble means that there is at least a remote chance he gets cut, all but maybe a dozen players are on the bubble. On the bubble means there is not much more than a coin flip that the player will make the roster.