In defense of Tate and Butler

[Kid~Brady]

Maybe, just maybe I'll give Tate another year or so but Butler is out for me. Every time he's on the field its like auto-completion for offenses.

Sorry but I don't see the defense in Butler's mediocre play.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Butler's UPSIDE on the Pats right now looks like CB #4. That's disappointing for where he was picked.

Tate is viewed a bit unfairly because, as the speed guy, he was the best hope to directly replace Moss. That said, he hasn't show much reason to keep his job.

Being almost good enough to be a quality NFL player is a heck of an athletic accomplishment, but it's not going to win you much respect on a message board. (I think I'm one of the few people who ever gives those props.)

Well fair or not, Tate is always going to be compared to Mike Wallace because he was picked one spot ahead of Wallace in the very same draft. So anything Tate does, well, I don't think he can live up to that draft spot.

Butler similarly was picked early in the 2nd round, so expectations were pretty high for him but he has failed to 'get it' as a DB. Physically he has gifts, but mentally he doesn't execute.

Brace has not impressed so much either. But he's big and he's young so give him some time. All these kids need more time but bottom line they are fighting for roster spots out there. With the depth that this team has and the way other young players are showing flashes of promise, some guys will fall by the wayside or end up not making the roster. That's the harsh reality of the NFL.

Here's a first reaction to the 2009 NFL draft:
Darius Butler, Patrick Chung Headline Patriots' Solid-but-Unspectacular Draft | Bleacher Report

I think Chung and Vollmer were likely the best players out of that haul. It does make you wonder - what if the Pats hadn't passed on Clay Matthews OR even what if they had packaged the picks they used on Butler/Brace and Tate for Matthews instead, what kind of shape would we be in? Aaah well, hindsight.

 

[spacecrime]

When the season begins and Bodden is giving up 5 or 6 completions to his side because teams are afraid throw McCourty's way are we going to crucify him too?

Bodden's ability to defend the pass has nothing to do with McCourty. It has to do with how he plays the position. If he sucks and gives up a completion three out of four times his receiver is thrown at, yeah, people will say he is playing poorly, BECAUSE IT WILL BE TRUE. If his receiver is through at 50 times and gives up 5 or 6 passes, people will praise him.

It isn't how many passes are thrown his way because of who is or is not playing opposite him. It is how well he plays.

You may prefer Butler playing opposite McCourty as a starter. That thought horrifies me. In passing situations, I want Bodden, McCourty and Arrington. In a dime set, give me a good safety rather than Butler or Wilhite.

Butler has the ability. He showed it in his rookie year. But he is NOT playing well, and I don't see how anyone can say he is playing well right now.

 

[spacecrime]

Well fair or not, Tate is always going to be compared to Mike Wallace because he was picked one spot ahead of Wallace in the very same draft. So anything Tate does, well, I don't think he can live up to that draft spot.

Butler similarly was picked early in the 2nd round, so expectations were pretty high for him but he has failed to 'get it' as a DB. Physically he has gifts, but mentally he doesn't execute.

I know there are people who use draft position to judge players, and compare them to other people who were drafted after them, but I never understood it. It's okay if a guy is mediocre if he was drafted after a buy who REALLY sucks, but not okay if a guy is pretty daamn good but was drafted before a guy who is REALLY terrific? What sense does that make?

When it comes to making the team or not making the team, I would hope that BB not keep a guy based on how other guys on other teams are playing.

Both Tate and Butler can get it together. If they do not, they are at the bottom of the list, on the team right now but suspectible to being bumped off it with the signing of a FA who plays better, or if there is a numbers crunch in their position.

I call that being on the bubble. I hope they both make it. But if they do or don't it won't have anything to do with who was drafted before or after them, or what round they were originally drafted in.

 

[Ron Sellers]

Who is saying Butler would be 1st?

Come on Triumph, you're moving the goalposts here. Take another look at your original comment:

If the Pats arent going to shop around for another CB then Butler is better than whats behind him on the depth chart.

Beyond Mcourty, Bodden and Arrington, they would be in trouble if someone is out for an extended time IMO. Then youre again relying on players who dont have a good track record hoping they will get it.

Only 2 other ball clubs had a worse receiving defense than the Pats last season. NFL Stats: by Team Category

The way that bolded portion reads to me as "oh my gosh, what happens if our 1st, 2nd and 3rd string CB all go out with an injury?"

Assuming he makes the team and is the 4th CB, he would move up to 3rd and see more playing time and thats trouble.

As I responded previously, please tell me what NFL team at this or any other position would not also "be in trouble" if they had to depend on someone who is fourth at a position on a depth chart. Of course there's a dropoff; if there wasn't he'd be the starter! Maybe he's more suited to be a slot corner where he wouldn't have as much of a concern about being beat deep on a flag pattern, who knows.

What evidence is there that Butler is improving? Please tell us?

You're putting words in my mouth; I never said that.

It sounds as if the Jags were looking for him last night.

You really think teams game plan for their first preseason game?

I did not say it was all his fault.

Then why did you bring up that statistic? You bring up Butler and then a link to that stat; the implication is quite clear.

]Its about IMPROVING your weaknesses. Improving the 30th ranked receiving defense in the NFL. Do you really think that NE is going to win another Championship with a seconday like a sieve? All it takes is for Brady to have a bad game where the offense cannot keep scoring and its all over.

Why do you assume whatever deficiencies the team had on defense are solely, or even primarily the fault of the secondary? In my opinion lack of pressure on the opposing quarterback was a much larger factor.

As for the stats you quoted, keep in mind that there were several games last year in which the Patriots had a decent lead, and the focus shifted to (a) milking the clock, and (b) don't give up a big play even if he means conceding short gains. The Bengals, Steelers, and Dolphins, among others abandoned their running game while trying to play catch up against the Pats. The Patriots did what they needed to do to win those games; the final stats did not give an accurate picture of what was going on.

Regarding the comment about what happens if Brady has a bad game, I'm going to assume you are implicitly referring to the playoff game against the Jets. There was plenty of blame to go around in that game; but if I had to pick one factor the run defense was a much bigger concern than the passing defense in that game, in my opinion.

I'm all for improving the defense. I just think that pointing our fingers at Butler for whatever woes the defense had (or still has) is rather short-sighted.

 

[Sfpat]

Sarcasm, the last resort of those who have nothing of substance to respond with. I'm sure you know that all DBs allow some passes, and that you should cut the guys who consistently don't make plays and are not as good as the other guys playing the position.

It's not a last resort, as I replied with substance. I gave a review of every play aimed at Butler in the first half and concluded that his play was not substandard (didn't include the second half as even I have a hard time watching the second half of the first preseason game). It's a response to the lunatic mentality of those who want to cut every young player who doesn't meet some undefined standard, no matter the circumstances. I'm glad most of the "cut" crowd doesn't work for the Patriot front office.

And by the way, my statement appears to be the criteria used by those who want Butler cut - a pass was completed against him

 

[37Harrison]

It's not a last resort, as I replied with substance. I gave a review of every play aimed at Butler in the first half and concluded that his play was not substandard (didn't include the second half as even I have a hard time watching the second half of the first preseason game). It's a response to the lunatic mentality of those who want to cut every young player who doesn't meet some undefined standard, no matter the circumstances. I'm glad most of the "cut" crowd doesn't work for the Patriot front office.

And by the way, my statement appears to be the criteria used by those who want Butler cut - a pass was completed against him

I am not necessarily one of those that wants him cut but I am very disappointed in how had is playing and have no confidence in him to make a pay when needed. He reminds me alot of ellis hobbs.

But I think the bolded part is a gross simplification of why people want him cut and is completely off base.

 

[Sfpat]

I am not necessarily one of those that wants him cut but I am very disappointed in how had is playing and have no confidence in him to make a pay when needed. He reminds me alot of ellis hobbs.

But I think the bolded part is a gross simplification of why people want him cut and is completely off base.

Seems to be all anyone says on this board. Would like to hear some real reasons then based on actual football facts.

For example, if you want a real bust (to date) I give you Kareem Jackson of the Texans (picked before McCourtney). He was totally lost last year and teams weren't just completing hitches in front of him (a la Butler). Everyone ran by him and he was toasted play after play, a touchdown machine (for the offense). He had no "catch-up" speed, poor technique and was usually the slowest skill player on the field. The Texans are hoping he improves in his second year (he's still listed as the starter) but reports from camp are not encouraging. This isn't Butler.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's not a last resort, as I replied with substance. I gave a review of every play aimed at Butler in the first half and concluded that his play was not substandard (didn't include the second half as even I have a hard time watching the second half of the first preseason game). It's a response to the lunatic mentality of those who want to cut every young player who doesn't meet some undefined standard, no matter the circumstances. I'm glad most of the "cut" crowd doesn't work for the Patriot front office.

And by the way, my statement appears to be the criteria used by those who want Butler cut - a pass was completed against him

Seems to be all anyone says on this board. Would like to hear some real reasons then based on actual football facts.

For example, if you want a real bust (to date) I give you Kareem Jackson of the Texans (picked before McCourtney). He was totally lost last year and teams weren't just completing hitches in front of him (a la Butler). Everyone ran by him and he was toasted play after play, a touchdown machine (for the offense). He had no "catch-up" speed, poor technique and was usually the slowest skill player on the field. The Texans are hoping he improves in his second year (he's still listed as the starter) but reports from camp are not encouraging. This isn't Butler.

Well, he started off last season as a starting CB. He lost that job and was struggling as the nickel. Belichick went out and drafted yet another CB.

Those are actual football facts. The notion that people have gotten Butler wrong would carry more weight if Butler's coach didn't seem to be in agreement with those people.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

Christian Morton disagrees with you.

Got me there...

 

[crowell33]

» Is This a Good Time to Panic About Darius Butler? Barstool Sports: Boston

There’s a ton of stats to illustrate how bad Butler is, but this one blew my mind: Opposing quarterbacks have posted a 151.6 passer rating when throwing at Butler, the second highest mark among 88 qualifying cornerbacks. Let that sink in for a minute. 158.3 is a perfect score. So in essence, throwing at Butler has almost been like throwing at nothing. He’s been targeted 18 times, allowing 15 completions for 207 yards, the most in the league. 198 of those yards came in the first two games since Butler played only three snaps Sunday against the Bills. For the sake of reference, Kansas City’s Brandon Flowers has been targeted 26 times (the most in the league) and has allowed only nine completions.

.......from last season

 

[Sfpat]

Well, he started off last season as a starting CB. He lost that job and was struggling as the nickel. Belichick went out and drafted yet another CB.

Those are actual football facts. The notion that people have gotten Butler wrong would carry more weight if Butler's coach didn't seem to be in agreement with those people.

Actually, I can accept your premise, though it hasn't previously been made in this thread. I may not agree, but you've made a point and used some logic. That I can respect.

 

[fumbrunner]

» Is This a Good Time to Panic About Darius Butler? Barstool Sports: Boston

There’s a ton of stats to illustrate how bad Butler is, but this one blew my mind: Opposing quarterbacks have posted a 151.6 passer rating when throwing at Butler, the second highest mark among 88 qualifying cornerbacks. Let that sink in for a minute. 158.3 is a perfect score. So in essence, throwing at Butler has almost been like throwing at nothing. He’s been targeted 18 times, allowing 15 completions for 207 yards, the most in the league. 198 of those yards came in the first two games since Butler played only three snaps Sunday against the Bills. For the sake of reference, Kansas City’s Brandon Flowers has been targeted 26 times (the most in the league) and has allowed only nine completions.

.......from last season

wow. What else can you say?

 

[AzPatsFan]

Its interesting watching the double standards at play when it comes to Butler and Tate.

I'm not going to try and convince anybody that these guys have had fantatsic starts to their career but the way they constantly are ripped astounds me.

Tate 'can't get seperation', 'can't run routes' and is 'only a kick returner'.

Butler 'can't cover anybody', 'gives up huge cushions' and 'doesn't make plays on the ball'.

So on one hand we are expecting Tate to abuse opposing DB's on a regular basis (because those guys are obviously allowed to suck) - and yet Butler should be a shut down CB not allowing WR's a sniff of the ball.

Its gotten to the stage where good performance from one of their positional peers is used as a stick to beat them with (see Taylor Price and Devin McCourty).

Its not like we are even expecting either guy to be a starter - probably WR#5 and CB#4 - for those roles they are young, cheap and still have upside.

I wholeheartedly concur. Ifyou read the offseason posts, the wisenheimers were already setting up Steven Ridly to be the next scapegoat...

 

[fumbrunner]

I wholeheartedly concur. Ifyou read the offseason posts, the wisenheimers were already setting up Steven Ridly to be the next scapegoat...

 

[NePatriots]

"Anchoring or focalism is a cognitive bias that describes the common human tendency to rely too heavily, or "anchor," on one trait or piece of information when making decisions."

"The focusing effect (or focusing illusion) is a cognitive bias that occurs when people place too much importance on one aspect of an event, causing an error in accurately predicting the utility of a future outcome."

Once a player is drafted, they are on the team. You can forget about where they were drafted.

Either they are good enough to make the team or not - don't worry about who was picked ahead or behind them, don't worry about if they were a 1st-rounder or a 7th rounder.

 

[Coach42]

As long as either of them is in a Patriots uniform I will continue to believe they will improve. Just like I did with Terrence Wheatley, Chad Jackson, Shawn Crable, Eugene Wilson, etc. etc. etc.

I just don't see the point off jumping all over a player who is on the team you root for, seems counterintuitive. What till he's cut then kill him.

 

[Triumph]

wow. What else can you say?

Just wait a while.

The Butler apoligist are many and they have a littnay of excuses.

 

[Triumph]

Come on Triumph, you're moving the goalposts here. Take another look at your original comment:


The way that bolded portion reads to me as "oh my gosh, what happens if our 1st, 2nd and 3rd string CB all go out with an injury?"

No ones changing argument.

I said "Someone." One player, if Bodden or Mcourty or Arrington go out, Butler moves up.

As I responded previously, please tell me what NFL team at this or any other position would not also "be in trouble" if they had to depend on someone who is fourth at a position on a depth chart. Of course there's a dropoff; if there wasn't he'd be the starter! Maybe he's more suited to be a slot corner where he wouldn't have as much of a concern about being beat deep on a flag pattern, who knows.

Butler played the slot after Wilhite got hurt.

Meh, he scares the hell out of me.

You're putting words in my mouth; I never said that.

He hasnt improved and its not looking too good.

Maroney = Butler. He makes a play here or there, but never lives up to expectations. JAG

You really think teams game plan for their first preseason game?

Teams prepare for pre season games like regular season games. Do they gameplan? Of course not, but they watch film just like they would in the regular season. They walk through the day before the game.

Do you think that Tampa is watching film of the Jags game? I do.

Then why did you bring up that statistic? You bring up Butler and then a link to that stat; the implication is quite clear.

The Pats pass defense has to get better unless offenses plan to stop attacking it.

I dont expect the 4th CB to be another Mcourty. Just a somebody who can hold his own until the starter is healthy again.

Why do you assume whatever deficiencies the team had on defense are solely, or even primarily the fault of the secondary? In my opinion lack of pressure on the opposing quarterback was a much larger factor.

As for the stats you quoted, keep in mind that there were several games last year in which the Patriots had a decent lead, and the focus shifted to (a) milking the clock, and (b) don't give up a big play even if he means conceding short gains. The Bengals, Steelers, and Dolphins, among others abandoned their running game while trying to play catch up against the Pats. The Patriots did what they needed to do to win those games; the final stats did not give an accurate picture of what was going on.

Regarding the comment about what happens if Brady has a bad game, I'm going to assume you are implicitly referring to the playoff game against the Jets. There was plenty of blame to go around in that game; but if I had to pick one factor the run defense was a much bigger concern than the passing defense in that game, in my opinion.

I'm all for improving the defense. I just think that pointing our fingers at Butler for whatever woes the defense had (or still has) is rather short-sighted.

The Pats pass defense hasnt been of championship caliber for about 5 years. Even during the 16 - 0 season, Brady had to return after leaving a game because the defense couldnt stop the other team passing the ball.

A crappy Sanchez threw 3 TD passes last post season.

Its not the pass rush. People keep blaming the pass rush when its players that cannot cover.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

The next time I see Butler actually contest a pass vs trying to tackle the
receiver after he has caught the pass, I will stop bashing him. He is Ellis
Hobbs II and that is somewhat of a disservice to EH.