Linebackers stronger in 2010

[Gunnails]

You mean like Ryan and Sanchise eating a massive meatball sandwich from opposite ends or something? No thanks...I think my sig captures a certain child-like innocence that it takes to be an aspiring Jets fan year after year.

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Ha Ha, I see your point.

 

[mgteich]

I didn't mean to suggest that we are counting on rookies. Belichick tries not to do that at more than one position if he can (TE this year).

I suggest that we will probably be better even without any contributions from the three first year players. Mayo, Burgess and Ninkovich should all produce more than last year. I don't see Thomas as a great loss. Do you? Do you think that one of the three rookies will not give us what Seau did last year? Alexander didn't even play a half-dozen plays at lienbacker.
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SIX RETURNEES
Mayo, Guyton, Banta-Cain, Woods, Ninkovich, Burgess
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FIRST YEAR PLAYER CONTRIBUTIONS
We may or may not get serious contributions from Spikes, McKenzie and Cunningham (or Crable or Willimiams). If ANY of them have a solid year, the linebackers should be significantly better than in 2009, as they may be even without contributions from these three players.

Thinking that rookies will automatically be as good as the players they replace is a recipe for disaster. For all the griping people have done about AdT, for example, he was still the starter for most of the season. Expecting a rookie conversion project to step right in and be an improvement is, as the line goes, a triumph of hope over experience.

 

[Reckedtrek]

In the end, Mayo is healthier, the two JAGS brought in last year know the defense better, and there will be three new additions. We might have wanted more, but it seems a reasonable effort to be adding Cunningham, McKenzie and Spikes to replace Seau, Thomas and Alexander.

THE FOUR INSIDE LINEBACKERS should be significantly better
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MAYO should be stronger. He was injured for the early part of 2009.
GUYTON should be at least as good as 2009.
We have replaced Seau and Alexander with SPIKES and MCKENZIE

THE FIVE OUTSIDE LINEBACKERS should be about the same or improve a little
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BANTA-CAIN and WOODS should be about the same.
NINKOVICH and BURGESS know the defense better and should be a bit better.
CUNNINGHAM replaces THOMAS on the roster & should be as good as Thomas was in 2009.

OTHER POSSIBILITIES
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CRABLE could surprise, make the team and contribute.
WILLIAMS could surprise, make the team, and contribute.
MURRELL or ALEXANDER could make team as STers, not affecting team effectiveness at LB.

I basically agree with your summary, and yeah- it's still 6 weeks until training camp starts so none of us know anything for sure. It's the dead season, so what does a little speculation hurt? Mayo was the DROY, got hurt last year- so I expect him back to be at least what he was his rookie year, maybe better if he has Spikes and/or McKenzie working well next to him. Guyton should be at least as good, if not better with a full year's experience, and that goes for all of last year's rookies who had any significant degree of playing time last year.

It's not a good idea to bank on one rookie having a break through year, but having three or four, is it that unlikely to expect at least one to make some noticable contributions by November?

It took Burgess much of the year to learn a new system. He was getting it by the last 4 games or so. This year, he actually will get a full training camp to his benefit as well as knowing much more than he did when we got him. Yes, he should be better. I don't give a rat's ass if no one else pursued him.

It's very possible that none of the player's are better than AD if he bothered to even try. But are we expecting one (or more) of them to be better than AD when he busts his ass or just better than AD last year? I'm pretty sure it was stated better than last year in the OP.

With a combination of Ninkovich, Cunningham, Crable, Wlliams or Murrell, there will at least be competition to push the players (who actually WANT to be better) harder and there won't be a negative ***** crying over flying cars in the snow. If the team's successful at rebuilding the locker room culture and morale, the team (I think) will be better at ILB and OLB. We'll find out soon enough.

 

[patsfan-1982]

i would not be shocked if they were a lot better then last year or even if they are worst.


ILB

Jerod Mayo, should be better cause he will at 100%
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Gary Guyton, should be at lest the same but i think he will have a bigger role as a pass rusher.
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Brandon Spikes, even as a rookie is a upgrade over junior seau, who i think should not have even been on the team last year.
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Tyrone McKenzie, is the wild card of the ILB's can he make the team and be a good ST player and #4 or even #3 ILB
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OLB

Tully Banta-Cain, im a big fan of TBC but last year. was a Career year for him and he was only the 2th player to have 10 sacks in the BB era. i think he will have a good season but im not sure he can be a 10 sack guy again.
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Derrick Burgess, i think will start the season as the #2 OLB on the other side of TBC and if he plays good he will keep he's job.
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Rob Ninkovich, and Pierre Woods are both good dept Ninkovich, is a better pass rusher and woods is a better run stoper but both are just backups
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Jermaine Cunningham, and Shawn Crable, are the wild cards of the OLB's can Cunningham, pickup the system fast a nuff to get on the field and can Crable, ever play in a real game.
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over all they should be fun to watch but they are far from being the Strength of the defense and that is not a good thing when you have a team that runs a base 3-4

 

[lillestroom]

Pierre Woods and Robbie Ninkovitch.

Two reasons why the Pats are so weak at OLB. If the OLB is weak, so are ENTIRE your linebacking core.

 

[mgteich]

Banta-Cain and Burgess both say hi. They will both will get lots more reps than Woods and Ninkovich (as they did last year). The fifth OLB is the rookie Cunningham.

Pierre Woods and Robbie Ninkovitch.

Two reasons why the Pats are so weak at OLB. If the OLB is weak, so are ENTIRE your linebacking core.

 

[lillestroom]

Banta-Cain and Burgess both say hi. They will both will get lots more reps than Woods and Ninkovich (as they did last year). The fifth OLB is the rookie Cunningham.

Glad to hear that both Tully and Derrick go the whole season without getting banged up. And that Cunningham can develop at the rate of knots Mayo did.

You had me worried for a minute.

 

[mgteich]

????? Banta_Cain played of 85% of the defensive reps last year. Burgess played more than Wilfork or Warren.

Woods and Ninkovich figure to have spot duty as they did last year, and start if there are injuries.

I am not counting on Cuningingham to start and be the DROY as Mayo was; no one is. Cunningham begins as the #5 OLB, hardly a pressure roster spot.

The improvement comes primarily because Mayo is coming back healthy and he has better backups than last year. ONE out of Guyton, McKenzie and Spikes should have a good year.

Glad to hear that both Tully and Derrick go the whole season without getting banged up. And that Cunningham can develop at the rate of knots Mayo did.

You had me worried for a minute.

 

[wcpatsfan]

I think the Pats will be playing out of the 4-3 a LOT this year.

 

[jays52]

The biggest upgrade is going to come from the team finally having a Mike. Last season, while Mayo was dinged up, he was more importantly playing out of position. With Mayo, a natural Will, playing the Mike, Guyton was getting the reps at Will. That is not a legitimate 34 inside backer tandem for any team, and certainly is a massive liability against the run. In effect, the team had a decent Will playing Mike and a situational Will playing the Will.

In Spikes or McKenzie (or more likely a combo of both) the team will have a legit Mike for the first time since Johnson retired. This will enable Mayo to move to the playmaking inside backer spot he is meant for. With this one simple addition the backers will go from quite poor to amongst the best.

 

[Deus Irae]

I didn't mean to suggest that we are counting on rookies. Belichick tries not to do that at more than one position if he can (TE this year).

I suggest that we will probably be better even without any contributions from the three first year players. Mayo, Burgess and Ninkovich should all produce more than last year. I don't see Thomas as a great loss. Do you? Do you think that one of the three rookies will not give us what Seau did last year? Alexander didn't even play a half-dozen plays at lienbacker.
==========================================
SIX RETURNEES
Mayo, Guyton, Banta-Cain, Woods, Ninkovich, Burgess
===========================================

FIRST YEAR PLAYER CONTRIBUTIONS
We may or may not get serious contributions from Spikes, McKenzie and Cunningham (or Crable or Willimiams). If ANY of them have a solid year, the linebackers should be significantly better than in 2009, as they may be even without contributions from these three players.

I think that expecting much more from Ninkovich is probably wasted hope. I think that expecting TBC to repeat last year is probably going to lead to disappointment. I expect that improvement will have to come from:

Mayo
Spikes/McKenzie
Burgess/Cunningham


That means that you're counting on 3 rookies, one guy who was a stiff last year, and one young guy who's coming off of a poor season, hopefully due to injury. I'm not saying that they can't make the LB corps better. Given what a load of garbage the LB corps was last season, the bar's not exactly set very high, after all. However, I am saying that you're expecting a lot of "if" players to come through with very positive results.

 

[Deus Irae]

The biggest upgrade is going to come from the team finally having a Mike. Last season, while Mayo was dinged up, he was more importantly playing out of position. With Mayo, a natural Will, playing the Mike, Guyton was getting the reps at Will. That is not a legitimate 34 inside backer tandem for any team, and certainly is a massive liability against the run. In effect, the team had a decent Will playing Mike and a situational Will playing the Will.

In Spikes or McKenzie (or more likely a combo of both) the team will have a legit Mike for the first time since Johnson retired. This will enable Mayo to move to the playmaking inside backer spot he is meant for. With this one simple addition the backers will go from quite poor to amongst the best.

I think that a lot of people were swayed by Guyton's play as a rookie, and they really thought he might become a full-time player. BB's moves seem to changed a lot of those minds. Personally, I'm hopeful that Guyton is used in the way I've always thought he'd fit best, which is as a situational LB designated to play on passing downs.

 

[RayClay]

Mike Reiss jun 16

The team is experimenting with different things on defense, and one thought came to mind when watching Tuesday's practice: Derrick Burgess appears to be a significant part of the planning at the position.

When the Patriots went through a drill that had their base 3-4 defense on the field, Burgess was lined up opposite Pierre Woods at outside linebacker. This is a change from last year, when Burgess was utilized mostly as a sub rusher...

But based on the few practices that media members have observed in recent weeks, Burgess appears to be positioned to be more than a depth player at this point. He could be right there on the front line, playing alongside Vince Wilfork, Jerod Mayo, Brandon Meriweather and Co -- not as a sub rusher but as an outside linebacker.

Following up on the Patriots' OLBs - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

 

[spacecrime]

I never knew McKenzie was such a great player that we're so improved. For goodness sake this man hasn't proven he can play a full 16 game season. Sadly, the Pats defense is all potential, a lot of "what ifs" this year. Yes the pieces are in place for success. But who gets hurt? Who proves to be a bust? We have no idea were Spikes, crable, Cunningham, and McKenzie even stand right now.

Yeah, yeah, no rookie has ever amounted anything. If a guy hasn't played yet, he never will. Blah blah blah.

Fact is, many times rookies make significant contributions. Guessing which one is tricky, but it is just as dumb to say that no rookie will help as to say all rookies will be great.

A middle ground is nice. Some rooks will contribute their first year, others will take 2 or more. Some never will.

But to say we are not improved with the additiions of Mckenzie, Spikes and Cunningham is simply wrong.

 

[IllegalContact]

as of right now, the group is weaker than 2009.

they have more 'potential', but as the great bill parcells said, 'potential means you've done nothing'

 

[Wretch]

Unless Cunningham has a breakout season as a rookie, the Pats will have the weakest 3-4 OLB's in the NFL. However, their ISLB's could be pretty good if Mayo becomes the roamer like Bruschi and Spikes or Mckenzie do the dirty work like Ted Johnson.

The Cleveland Browns say hello.

 

[mgteich]

Let's try a more minimalist apporach. Let us presume that Ninkovich pick ups the reps of Thomas. Please compare.
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2010 BANTA-CAIN vs 2009 TBC even
2010 WOODS vs 2009 WOODS even
2010 MAYO vs. 2009 MAYO improvement
2010 GUYTON vs. 2009 GUYTON even
2010 BURGESS vs. 2009 BURGESS slight improvement
2010 NINKOVICH vs. 2009 THOMAS loss (certainly not a huge loss from 2009 Thomas)
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WITHOUT ROOKIES
I am saying that the improvement over 2009 by Mayo and Burgess will be more than the loss of moving from 2009 Thomas to Ninkovich. Do you disagree?
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THREE YOUNGSTERS GIVE THE POTENTIAL OF SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT
If any of McKenzie, Spikes or Cunningham has significant impact, that will be a major plus.
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BOTTOM LINE
I do NOT count on rookies, except to believe that Spikes or McKenzie or Spikes will give us what Seau did in 2009 (injury protection). I agree with everyone that we can HOPE that Spikes or McKenzie will start, moving Guyton to a backup role. We can HOPE that Cunningham will take most of the reps of Thomas with at least similar production.

I think that this is the patriot way. We expect to improve a bit, even without any rookie production. And if we do indeed get rookie production, we could get much better.
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I think that expecting much more from Ninkovich is probably wasted hope. I think that expecting TBC to repeat last year is probably going to lead to disappointment. I expect that improvement will have to come from:

Mayo
Spikes/McKenzie
Burgess/Cunningham


That means that you're counting on 3 rookies, one guy who was a stiff last year, and one young guy who's coming off of a poor season, hopefully due to injury. I'm not saying that they can't make the LB corps better. Given what a load of garbage the LB corps was last season, the bar's not exactly set very high, after all. However, I am saying that you're expecting a lot of "if" players to come through with very positive results.

 

[Deus Irae]

Let's try a more minimalist apporach. Let us presume that Ninkovich pick ups the reps of Thomas. Please compare.

Ok, let's have at it.

2010 BANTA-CAIN vs 2009 TBC

Given that 2009 was a career year for TBC, it's likely that 2010 will be a step back.

2010 WOODS vs 2009 WOODS

Fair assumption, if he makes the team.

2010 MAYO vs. 2009 MAYO

If it was all about the knee, we should see major improvement.

2010 GUYTON vs. 2009 GUYTON

I'm hoping he improves a bit. I expect he'll see time on passing downs.

2010 BURGESS vs. 2009 BURGESS

He should be better (can't get much worse), but how much?

2010 NINKOVICH vs. 2009 THOMAS

Thomas was/is the better player, by a comfortable margin.

WITHOUT ROOKIES
I am saying that the improvement over 2009 by Mayo and Burgess will be more than the loss of moving from 2009 Thomas to Ninkovich. Do you disagree?

The potential for the LB corps to be significantly improved is there. The potential for the LB corps to be worse is there. Again, it's a matter of which "if" possibilities win out. I, personally, expect significant improvement from the ILB positions. I don't expect Ninkovich/Burgess to be an upgrade over AdT/Burgess 2009. History isn't on their side. Let's hope they beat the odds.

BOTTOM LINE
I do NOT count on rookies, except to believe that Spikes or McKenzie or Spikes will give us what Seau did in 2009 (injury protection). I agree with everyone that we can HOPE that Spikes or McKenzie will start, moving Guyton to a backup role. We can HOPE that Cunningham will take most of the reps of Thomas with at least similar production.

I think that this is the patriot way. We expect to improve a bit, even without any rookie production. And if we do indeed get rookie production, we could get much better.

The likeliest areas of potential improvement center around Mayo's bounce back and 'rookies' playing better than veterans. If Mayo can truly "bounce back", that'll have an impact on the entire corps, and could make the OLBs look better than last year even if they aren't. However, expecting significant improvement from Ninkovich/Burgess to lead to Thomas' spot being significantly upgraded, while also expecting that TBC will have no dropoff from his career best season, would seem like a bit much to ask.

 

[cstjohn17]

There is very good competition across the entire roster which should help all the units.

My problem with the LBs, especially at OLB is that they are all JAGs. Take the names and throw them in a hat, pick the names. There is no top end talent, so they should end up with a group that has good depth but little upside.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

It's amazing how any conversation rots when it's dominated by Hey Bro and the Douche Awry.

It's amazing seeing judgement passed on rookies/2nd and 3rd year players. Ya might want to review Takeo Spikes on NFLN and how he noted that it's toward the end of the third year when a lb starts to "get it".

Who are we playing next year? How about looking at the opponents and then developing defensive packages? Do you seriously think Indy will have the same package as Cincy? Green Bay vs Chicago?

I would hate to see judgement if the defense rated like 8th in points last year.