Koa Misi

[VJCPatriot]

Why do those 2 numbers matter so much to you?

I believe he's quoting BB's reported preferred size/speed for OLBs.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Because they matter to BB. This is his response to a question about why the Pats didn't select any 3-4 OLBs in the draft last year.

"There weren't a lot of 4.6, 4.65 [40 time] guys. There weren't a lot of 6-[foot]-4, 6-[foot]-5 guys. I'd say it was a much smaller pool of those types of players."
All Things Bill Belichick: 26-Apr-2009 Press Conference Transcript

This statement matches up with BB's draft history with the Pats. The only 3-4 OLB they have selected in the first four rounds is Shawn Crable (Rd3, 2008. 6’5 45 lbs. 40: 4.61 ). Here is a list of the other guys that the Pats have drafted at OLB with later picks, and their combine measurements and times are relatively close to the 6'4 4.6 club

Casey Tisdale (Rd7, 2000) 6’4 255 lbs. 40: 4.71
Tully Banta-Cain (Rd7, 2003) 6’2 264 lbs. 40: N/A
Jeremy Mincey (Rd5, 2006) 6’4 259 lbs. 40: 4.76
Justin Rogers (Rd6, 2007): 6’4 252 lbs. 40: 4.76
Notable UDFA:
Pierre Woods 6’4 249 lbs. 40:4.73
Stryker Sulak, Missouri, 6’5 251 4.63

These numbers are based on combine times. Perhaps these players ran faster at their pro days, but the point is that BB has been very picky at OLB over the years, and the 6'4 4.6 requirement seems to be a reason why (according to my research, there have only been 24 DE/OLB prospects invited to the combine since 2000 who met this criteria). Based on all this, it seems prudent to eliminate any 3-4 OLB prospect who isn't a member of 6'4 4.6 club as a possibility for the Patriots, at least when it comes to rounds 1-4.

Patrick Willis wouldn't make BB's grade but I have a feeling we'd be a better team with him on board.

I have a feeling the team will continue to suffer because BB's inflexibility.

"Perfection is the enemy of good enough"

 

[StraightCashHomey81]

Patrick Willis wouldn't make BB's grade but I have a feeling we'd be a better team with him on board.

I have a feeling the team will continue to suffer because BB's inflexibility.

"Perfection is the enemy of good enough"

Patrick Willis is an ILB. My post only refers to 3-4 OLBs.

I am not eliminating the possiblity that Koa Misi could be a very good player. I think he and Brandon Graham will probably be productive pass rushers in the NFL, in another scheme. But my point is that these guys are not possibilites for the Patriots because BB prefers guys with more length and straight-line speed. You can debate the merits of BB's standards, but I doubt it will change his mind. And in his defense, it has worked for him in the past. Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, Carl Banks, and Lawrence Taylor all fit the 6'4 4.6 40 mold and were excellent players under BB.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Patrick Willis wouldn't make BB's grade but I have a feeling we'd be a better team with him on board.

I have a feeling the team will continue to suffer because BB's inflexibility.

"Perfection is the enemy of good enough"

Umm, Mayo is virtually a Patrick Willis clone and they both play the same position - weakside ILB. What the Pats need in this draft are SILB and OLB. And BB's criteria for OLB appear to be pretty strict.

And in his defense, it has worked for him in the past. Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, Carl Banks, and Lawrence Taylor all fit the 6'4 4.6 40 mold and were excellent players under BB.

Unfortunately those types of players tend to be top 10 picks. And the Pats are almost never in position to pick that high. The year they were, they picked Mayo in round 1 and Crable in round 3. There really wasn't an OLB worth taking in round 1 that year. Gholston has obviously been a huge bust and I figure BB thought he would be a bust as well.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Patrick Willis is an ILB. My post only refers to 3-4 OLBs.

I am not eliminating the possiblity that Koa Misi could be a very good player. I think he and Brandon Graham will probably be productive pass rushers in the NFL, in another scheme. But my point is that these guys are not possibilites for the Patriots because BB prefers guys with more length and straight-line speed. You can debate the merits of BB's standards, but I doubt it will change his mind. And in his defense, it has worked for him in the past. Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, Carl Banks, and Lawrence Taylor all fit the 6'4 4.6 40 mold and were excellent players under BB.

Ok, I understand you're simply talking about what BB will probably do, and you're correct in that regard but I do have issue with his criteria: if those players that have success in other systems don't fit his criteria maybe the problem is his criteria. It seems to me that his defenses have been melting down of late, maybe there's something to my criticism.

Is BB confusing correlation with causation?

Lance Briggs, Joey Porter, Terrell Suggs, and James Harrison would have all failed to make BB's cut. I think that pretty much proves being 6'4 isn't all that vital. Oh yeah, one standout player that fit that mold was Adalius Thomas.

The 40 time is even less significant, how often is a linebacker running 40 yards straight? The ability to quickly accelerate and decelerate is FAR more important to a linebacker.

Also, the 40 time is mostly about lessening deceleration than acceleration, their actual speed tops out by 10 yards, the rest is just trying to minimize the slowdown.

 

[Defsoul]

Sergio Kindle and Ricky Sapp are two players that would fit BB's preferred size/speed. Kindle stands 6-4 tall, weights around 255 pounds and is supposed to run a high 4.60s. Sapp is also 6-4 and listed at 248, but it is reported that he bulked up to 250+ pounds. He is supposed to run in the low 4.60s or even under 4.60.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

I have not seen this guy play but from what I've read he seems to have limited upside. I'm more interested in a dynamic pass rusher. This guy also didn't play against top-tier competition. People complain about Sapp's lack of production with only 5 sacks this year. He did that against better competition with a knee that he said wasn't 100% after ACL surgery.

I'm more interested in guys like Hardy, Morgan, Sapp, etc. who have more upside.

 

[zimmy]

Bill is quite happy to take guys that are not the 6ft4 4.6 ideal once they have proved they can play in the NFL. Adalius Thomas, Derrick Burgess, Rosie Colvin are all shorter than 6ft4. He brought Banta Cain back as well, who is undersized. I understand him not wanting to take a chance in the first round on one of these guys but with three 2nd round picks perhaps this is finally the year he takes a leap of faith on one of these guys. I think Misi's versatility will work in his favour for BB. I also quite like Worilds (another guy listed at 6ft2). He seems to be actually pretty good against the run and has a decent first step. Unless there is a marquee free agent coming at outside linebacker then he has to take a chance higher up the draft on one of these guys, because he doesn't really have 2-3 years to develop a mid-round guy.