maverick4

Are you arguing about whether God/absolute values exist, or about the truth/usefulness of organized religion? They are two completely different discussions.

By the way, please explain to me how a society can function and how integrity can persist if everyone believes in no God? Seems to me everyone would get away with as much as they could under law, or without getting caught.

mgteich

well said.

PatsFanInVa

I disagree. Rigorous, and indeed draconian, law enforcement in the former Soviet Union kept crime quite frustrated; whereas a full-blown mafia emerged at the same time that the churches were again free to practice. This is still a single-case study, though it is better than saying "just look at [disgraced televangelist name here.] It didn't stop him."

The United States is one of the more religious countries in the industrialized world, yet we also boast one of the highest per capita incarceration rates.

Just as one can not argue that religion causes violence or war, since violence and war are not solely the products of religious wars or pogroms, one can not argue effectively that religion significantly curbs crime, at least not prima facie. By contrast, one can argue quite effectively that religion produces in believers a variety of attitudes and levels of hypocrisy, which are also present in the absence of religion. It is therefore likely that the attitudes and levels of hypocrisy (i.e., ability to act against one's own purported ethical or religious guideposts,) is a phenomenon reproduced among populations whether they are religious or not.

One can imagine an "ideal Christian," "ideal Moslem," "ideal Jew," etc., but these have nothing to do with the influence of religion on the society in question. What happens when a mass population professes these faiths is far more salient. We have only to look at Europe in the centuries leading up to this one, to give the lie to the platitude that religion curbs immorality (just as we need only look at Mao and Stalin to give the lie to the notion that religion is the root of all evil.)

PFnV

Triple-T

Honestly, I don't know that. Of course, I'm just like you and everyone else; no one knows what is past this world. (they may believe they know, but they don't.)

So, what if there is a heaven and a hell and a supreme being who will judge me? Am I going to be judged by my worship or lack thereof? Or will I be judged by my actions? I can say this, if I am going to be judged by some egomaniacal supreme being who is most concerned with my worship of it, then I hope I'm judged not worthy of being in it's presence.

What about those who find there is nothing past this world? What have they been doing with their time? Probably could have been better spent playing with their kids or working towards a better world.

And what if I'll be judged by my character? In that case, I think I'm in pretty good shape.

__________________
Do. Your. Job. Don't try to take care of somebody else's responsibilities and all that. Just take care of your assignment. Know what it is, execute it and get it taken care of. Do your job...and you'll be champions tonight

Triple-T

PFnV pretty much nailed the response on how a society could function without an organized religion. (And may I add, well beyond how I would have articulated it.) But I'll add a little bit to his points. It is in my self interest to have a very robust and civil society. Why would it be in my interest to undermine it by exploiting any conceivable avenue within the law? That would be pretty irrational.

And to your first point, yes they are two separate matters. I'm talking about organized religion and not absolute truth, but I'm glad you bring it up. Whereas those participating in organized religion tend to already have a definition of absolute truth, I don't believe it is that easy. An absolute truth used to be that the sun orbited the earth and that there was nothing else in the universe. We now would laugh at such a suggestion. There are also those who to this day deny evolution. Someday, we will also laugh at them.

And that is just another reason that organized religion is an utter waste of time.

__________________
Do. Your. Job. Don't try to take care of somebody else's responsibilities and all that. Just take care of your assignment. Know what it is, execute it and get it taken care of. Do your job...and you'll be champions tonight

SoonerPatriot

Religion has its place in society and more often than not, it's a good thing. I'm not really here to debate the existence of a higher being. However here are a couple of issues I have with it.

1-For profit mega churches not being taxed, yet bringing in millions of dollars of revenue each year.

2-Churches that openly attempt to influence their congregations in the realm of politics. This is grounds for revocation of a chuch's tax exempt status yet is rarely if ever enforced.

3-Catholics who look at places like Africa where AIDS and rampant overpopulation are major issues yet oppose making birth control available on the continent. The height of stupidity IMO.

4-The disdain evangelical christians have for science. These people actually believe Jesus walked with the dinosaurs which is completely absurd.

5-Killing in the name of relgion. This applies to Muslims and Christians as both faiths have repeatedly gone down this road historically. There are fanatics in both faiths.

BelichickFan

Well I'm agnostic, not atheist, but I do basically believe that religion is a pathetic crutch for people to make it through hard times. Something bad happened ? Pray and it'll all get better. A loved one died ? That's OK they're in a better place.

I'll admit I don't know where we are or where exactly the universe is - or what it is. But the concept of God is kind of silly.

__________________
Don't Give Me a Defensive Player Who Can't Tackle . . . What Am I Going to Do With Him ? --- Bill Belichick

maverick4

PFnV, I did not say a society of no organized religion. I said (or meant, anyway) a society where everyone believes in 'no God'. Again, the two separate discussions in this thread are belief in God/absolute values and organized religion.

Am curious to hear people's responses to a society where no one believes in God/absolute values (post-modernism). Under this kind of society, it would be in the best interest of the individual to appear to abide by laws and to be moral, while getting away with as much as possible under the radar. There would be no personal integrity, except in instances where you must appear to show it.

Fixit

This whole argument that religion keeps people in line more than laws do is silly. Within the law there are only consequences; within the context of religion is the concept of "absolution", which frees an individual from any accountability so long as they repent/pretend to repent and ask for forgiveness.

On any given Sunday, when you may walk into a church for services, you will be sitting shoulder-to-shoulder with philanderers, cheats, murderers, rapists, and drug abusers, just as in any other segment of society...only they, according to their belief system, are still entitled to a beautiful afterlife.

Personally, I'm much more afraid of going to prison than going to Hell.

Whether one is an atheist, devout, or somewhere in between doesn't dictate how they live and act when no one's looking. That's all a question of individual character, nothing more or less.

maverick4

I feel individual character, especially integrity, comes from a fundamental belief in certain absolute values (call it God if you want). To believe in no God is to believe that everything is relative and justifiable.

Does anyone disagree?