Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?

[Greatest I am]

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?


Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation obvious lies.


Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivation in its theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven, no hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner, not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open our inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.


How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.


For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mindset which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.


So for you and me to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions, just not all of them.


Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?


Regards

DL

 

[Tony2046]

Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?


Some religions like Christianity and Islam teach that people are condemned by God and that we have to work to gain salvation. God created us ill, and orders us to be well, on pain of tremendous eternal torture and eventual death. This teaching follows the one where we are told that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways. This makes the notions of condemnation and the need for salvation obvious lies.


Gnostic Christianity does not use this type of carrot and stick motivation in its theology. We are Universalists and only see a heaven, no hell. We think God too good a creator to ever have to condemn anyone. Our God is a winner, not the loser God that Christianity has invented. All the Gods are myths created to help us reach our highest human potential and are only tools to open our inner eye. Our single eye as Jesus calls it.


How we can forgive ourselves is that as Universalists, we have tied righteousness to equality. The logic trail from there says that if God is to punish anyone, he would have to punish everyone as everyone contributes to what we all are.


For instance. If God were to punish Hitler, he would have to revue what made Hitler what he ended up being. God would follow his time line and see perhaps that his parents spanked him and God would know what we know today, that spanking creates resentment and a delinquent attitude. That beginning would see Hitler's parents setting his mindset which eventually flowered into his tyrannical nature. So to be just, God would automatically have to punish Hitler's parents. That same logic would apply to everyone who contributed or facilitated Hitler's rise to infamy.


So for you and me to blame just ourselves for what we are would be quite unjust. This is not to say that we hold no responsibility for our actions, just not all of them.


Do you agree that the need of Salvation promoted by religions is an evil lie?


Regards

DL

Religion in itself is a belief or a faith someone acquires through study of incidents, documents and historical events. But to say that someone knows their God to be as they say their God should be is a based on a belief and not a fact. The same goes for salvation and or heaven and hell. No one truly knows.

I do believe in energy and have spent most of my life thinking about or studying it. I'm also intrigued with the concept of infinity which basically dictates that all things are possible.

Point being is that any one of us could be correct about our ideas of the afterlife and God. We just don't know.

So live your life positively and pray to whom you wish to pray to. If you do that you will pass, when the time comes, in a positive light. Whether that means you are going to heaven or just being remembered by your family and friends in a positive memory it surely means you were good for mankind.

Beyond that I would not be able to answer your question and I expect that no one honestly could.

 

[Greatest I am]

Religion in itself is a belief or a faith someone acquires through study of incidents, documents and historical events. But to say that someone knows their God to be as they say their God should be is a based on a belief and not a fact. The same goes for salvation and or heaven and hell. No one truly knows.

I do believe in energy and have spent most of my life thinking about or studying it. I'm also intrigued with the concept of infinity which basically dictates that all things are possible.

Point being is that any one of us could be correct about our ideas of the afterlife and God. We just don't know.

So live your life positively and pray to whom you wish to pray to. If you do that you will pass, when the time comes, in a positive light. Whether that means you are going to heaven or just being remembered by your family and friends in a positive memory it surely means you were good for mankind.

Beyond that I would not be able to answer your question and I expect that no one honestly could.

Thanks for this.

Nice and balanced and mostly true.

One thing.

"Religion in itself is a belief or a faith someone acquires through study of incidents, documents and historical events."

If by events you include being born into your religion then I will agree.

The vast majority do not do not acquire their religions the way you states. The vast majority are just following custom, tradition and what daddy and granddaddy followed without ever really learning about their religions.

That is what I get from this link.



Regards
DL

 

[IllegalContact]

Religion was the primary tool used to teach people that they have a conscience and that you should not eat your neighbors children.

Is there any value in a god who would not accept you unconditionally for merely living by the golden rule?

 

[anditsgood]

Religion was the primary tool used to teach people that they have a conscience and that you should not eat your neighbors children.

Is there any value in a god who would not accept you unconditionally for merely living by the golden rule?

I tend to believe you will be judged more based on your actions and knowledge of right and wrong, more than your beliefs, There are plenty of evil people that believed.....

 

[The Brandon Five]

You demonstrate a poor understanding of Christian doctrine.

 

[anditsgood]

You demonstrate a poor understanding of Christian doctrine.

Me?

 

[The Brandon Five]

Me?

The OP.

 

[Tony2046]

The OP.

I think the question was what do you believe and not what the christian doctrine states.

(Please read that as a polite response)

 

[Greatest I am]

Religion was the primary tool used to teach people that they have a conscience and that you should not eat your neighbors children.

Is there any value in a god who would not accept you unconditionally for merely living by the golden rule?

Not to me but bible God has much lower standards than the average man.

I mean, as a judge he has shown that he will demand sacrifices and ransoms to alter his verdicts.

If I were a good follower of the Golden Rule, I would only be confident in his judgement if I had a bribe price going in.

God has tortured and murdered babies and innocent children without a just cause so I would not trust that demiurge at all.

Would you trust Yahweh as your judge?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I tend to believe you will be judged more based on your actions and knowledge of right and wrong, more than your beliefs, There are plenty of evil people that believed.....

I agree here.

In fact, if religious Christians walked the laws their bible advocates, we would have to outlaw the religion to protect ourselves. Christians are basically being taught poor morals by their God but they are not stupid enough to want Yahweh's law as the law of the land. Except for the gay laws of course. Bastards.



Regards
DL

 

[tom444]

There isn't the tiniest bit of evidence that religion, theistic religion specifically, exists anywhere outside of the mind. The fact that there isn't, is overwhelming evidence of the fact that it doesn't.

 

[Greatest I am]

You demonstrate a poor understanding of Christian doctrine.

Lazy and immoral Christians like Paul's way but James' way made a lot more sense.

You have a stupid God who condemns you then gives you a get out of hell free gift like a by-polar fool.

James, Jesus' brother, knew what Jesus taught better and knew that works and deeds were how one recognized a Christian.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

There isn't the tiniest bit of evidence that religion, theistic religion specifically, exists anywhere outside of the mind. The fact that there isn't, is overwhelming evidence of the fact that it doesn't.

Agreed.

Absentee God are just so absentee. In Yahweh's case, if he was around then the Haig would be after the vile demiurge for crimes against humanity.

If they missed him, I have a bullet with his name on it..

Regards
DL

 

[Tony2046]

There isn't the tiniest bit of evidence that religion, theistic religion specifically, exists anywhere outside of the mind. The fact that there isn't, is overwhelming evidence of the fact that it doesn't.

There are a lot of things we do not fully understand.

Do we know what gravity is or only know how to measure it?

Do we know what dark matter is?

Do we know if we live in a 3 dimensional world and exist in a fourth in thought? Is there a fifth?

Do we fully understand consciousness?

Can consciousness exist other than in an organic body?

Do the laws of physics we apply in our universe apply to other universes?

Energy is neither created nor destroyed but does that mean a part of our energy exists elsewhere after death or do we simply become fertilizer?

Couple that with the fact that you could basically travel for an infinite amount of time and cross an infinite amount of space and still not reach the end is a bizarre concept especially when we are accustomed to limitations. So does that mean that and infinite of possibilities exist?

Anyways you can say there isn't a God or that the Bible is full of crap and you may be correct in that it was written by men and used by governments as a control but I would go further and say it is also a historical document that represents thousands of years of mankind searching for the same answer you and I both occasionally ponder while trying to determine God's (or the highest level of consciousness) ideals for good and bad.

Things I think about when pondering spirituality. I never question someone else's belief until they are stepping on my lawn and trying to force feed it to me. And if it is utterly ridiculous.

To say there isn't proof does not disprove a belief of an afterlife. Whatever that may be.

 

[Tony2046]

I agree here.

In fact, if religious Christians walked the laws their bible advocates, we would have to outlaw the religion to protect ourselves. Christians are basically being taught poor morals by their God but they are not stupid enough to want Yahweh's law as the law of the land. Except for the gay laws of course. Bastards.



Regards
DL

So is this an anti-Christian thread? Or can we discuss the ignorances that people of all religion (including atheists) display when they decide what is right or wrong, depending on their interpretations of a religious manuscript or a science book, for another human being?

Can we discuss how you have just vilified Christians with an anti-gay agenda without recognizing that there are churches today who have openly gay priests and ministers?

I think you will find that most religious people show a monotheist characteristic and , as you've mentioned earlier, follow their religion of birth peripherally while incorporating their social views. Of course there is still social, political and other pressures that will keep the speed of that incorporation at a slow and incremental pace but nevertheless I think what we've seen here in the US and Europe over the last 400 years is proof that cultures evolve socially and religiously.

So was your purpose to create this thread to bash (a) religion?

 

[tom444]

To say there isn't proof does not disprove a belief of an afterlife. Whatever that may be.

But man has made theistic religion up. It exists in the mind of man and nowhere else. We didn't make up gravity, dark matter, consciences, energy, etc. I'm sure you understand my point. I'm not judging the value of religion as being positive or negative, because that would be judging the value of thought. I'm saying know the difference between what is thought and what isn't. One of the most difficult things for humans to grasp is mind itself. Where it begins and where it ends. What it is, and isn't. What it projects, and what is real. You have to grapple with it for years. And finally the only way to understand it is to watch your own mind work. The east is much better at this then the west. They have been doing it for two thousand years. It is much newer to us.

Heaven is a product of the mind. Hell is a product of the mind. Afterlife is a product of the mind. So is god. Mind is the source of these things. It is not something that was observed. Good and evil are a product of the mind. In the final analysis good is what sits well within the mind. Evil is what doesn't sit well. Evolution has used this comfort and lack of comfort within the mind because it works to our advantage. If an act doesn't please the mind we tend not to do it. If it does, we tend to do it, and so we benefit from these judgements and call them, sometimes, religious insights. Where as really they are the insights of our own mind.

Anyway, that's the quick version.

 

[Tony2046]

But man has made theistic religion up. It exists in the mind of man and nowhere else. We didn't make up gravity, dark matter, consciences, energy, etc. I'm sure you understand my point. I'm not judging the value of religion as being positive or negative, because that would be judging the value of thought. I'm saying know the difference between what is thought and what isn't. One of the most difficult things for humans to grasp is mind itself. Where it begins and where it ends. What it is, and isn't. What it projects, and what is real. You have to grapple with it for years. And finally the only way to understand it is to watch your own mind work. The east is much better at this then the west. They have been doing it for two thousand years. It is much newer to us.

Heaven is a product of the mind. Hell is a product of the mind. Afterlife is a product of the mind. So is god.

Unless God or a higher consciousness exists then it is the same as gravity, dark matter or something else we do not currently know about. Yes Hell and Heaven may be creations of man used as a control mechanism and, or to explain their beliefs but I am not arguing about fishing stories nor disputing them. I am simply stating that it is currently not possible to know if there exists a higher level of consciousness that we do not yet understand.

The west had Socrates and the east had Confucius. So I'll call that a push.

Great post Tom.

 

[anditsgood]

So is this an anti-Christian thread? Or can we discuss the ignorances that people of all religion (including atheists) display when they decide what is right or wrong, depending on their interpretations of a religious manuscript or a science book, for another human being?

Can we discuss how you have just vilified Christians with an anti-gay agenda without recognizing that there are churches today who have openly gay priests and ministers?

I think you will find that most religious people show a monotheist characteristic and , as you've mentioned earlier, follow their religion of birth peripherally while incorporating their social views. Of course there is still social, political and other pressures that will keep the speed of that incorporation at a slow and incremental pace but nevertheless I think what we've seen here in the US and Europe over the last 400 years is proof that cultures evolve socially and religiously.

So was your purpose to create this thread to bash (a) religion?

He is a gnosis christian, and he is NO** better than that born again that gets in your face to preach his religion, or that atheist that does the same

** edited to add the word NO , which I meant to type

 

[Greatest I am]

So is this an anti-Christian thread? Or can we discuss the ignorances that people of all religion (including atheists) display when they decide what is right or wrong, depending on their interpretations of a religious manuscript or a science book, for another human being?

Can we discuss how you have just vilified Christians with an anti-gay agenda without recognizing that there are churches today who have openly gay priests and ministers?

I think you will find that most religious people show a monotheist characteristic and , as you've mentioned earlier, follow their religion of birth peripherally while incorporating their social views. Of course there is still social, political and other pressures that will keep the speed of that incorporation at a slow and incremental pace but nevertheless I think what we've seen here in the US and Europe over the last 400 years is proof that cultures evolve socially and religiously.

So was your purpose to create this thread to bash (a) religion?

Yes and no.

I named two specifically. Christianity and Islam.

Do you think that religions that lie constantly to their adherents should be bashed or just left to keep on lying and fleecing their sheeple?

I appreciate that the West has pulled Christianity into a better moral position from their more murderous and immoral one, but if you look at their thinking, in Mississippi and North Carolina on gays, they are no better than Islam which are still stoning gays.

Both of the religions named ar immoral constructs and only immoral people will support them.

Regards
DL