Yards after catch.....playoffs: Lloyd

[Rob0729]

It's too bad the Pats didn't figure out ways to get him the ball downfield more. He obviously was once capable of posting high YPC totals.

As for his age ..... he's the same age as Wes, and younger than Boldin for example.

It just seemed that he and Brady couldn't hook up down the field. The few times they tried it, Lloyd was open but they couldn't connect for some reason.

 

[blackglass3]

Maybe this is why he wasn't drafted by us back in 03 or 04. The reason he ended up here was McDaniels talking him up, and McDaniels choices for offenses has been questionable at best. If I recall what I read correctly he pushed for Maroney and Chad Johnson, Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow in Denver...I don't hate Lloyd, he is a very good WR for what he does. But he wasn't what we needed for this team's offense.

X's and O's people, I have a question. Would Lloyd be able to do what Welker does should Welker leave? Or would it most likely be Hernandez that takes that role?

 

[randomk1]

Lloyd in the slot would look brutal.

I'm fine with Lloyd in his role but i'd love to see another option on that #3 spot.

 

[Rob0729]

Maybe this is why he wasn't drafted by us back in 03 or 04. The reason he ended up here was McDaniels talking him up, and McDaniels choices for offenses has been questionable at best. If I recall what I read correctly he pushed for Maroney and Chad Johnson, Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow in Denver...I don't hate Lloyd, he is a very good WR for what he does. But he wasn't what we needed for this team's offense.

X's and O's people, I have a question. Would Lloyd be able to do what Welker does should Welker leave? Or would it most likely be Hernandez that takes that role?

First, McDaniels pushed for Maroney only. That was his brother's fault. He coached Maroney at Minnesota and talked up Maroney to his brother. Besides, most people thought it was a solid pick at the time and the Colts admitted they were targetting him. Belichick scouted Jackson himself. So he is culpable for that pick.

Second, I don't know if you can say all of McDaniels' choices on offense are questionable at best. He did draft Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker. Both are solid WRs. The addition of Hoomanawanui and Lloyd this year to the offense on McDaniels suggestion have been good pick ups.

Third, I think Lloyd was what the Pats needed on this offense. He was an outside threat which was desperately missing the previous two years. The Pats didn't have the third highest scoring offense of all time for nothing and the addition of Lloyd was a part of it.

 

[borg]

Well the numbers don't lie, Lloyd has zero play making skills. When the ball hits his hands, the play is over.....fact.
Seems to me the Lloyd skill set goes against everything BB stands for. BB preaches to his defenders to scoop up the fumble and run with it and try to score...make a play....not fall on the ball. He let BJGE go because he got brought down on first contact.
Lloyds 50 1st downs is an incredible stat, but I have to believe that BB wants a 3 down WR to be able to make plays with the ball.
The reality is....Wes Welker is the Pats deep threat, not Lloyd. A shifty, vertically challenged, short armed slot WR is the Pats deep threat. And this formula continues to produce insuffucient points in their losing playoff efforts.

 

[BadMoFo]

Not trying to be negative but it is painful watching Lloyd for some reason. It seems hes always diving or on his knees when hes catching the ball. It's frustrating as hell

Don't you think that may also have to do with where the ball is placed?

 

[Rob0729]

Well the numbers don't lie, Lloyd has zero play making skills. When the ball hits his hands, the play is over.....fact.
Seems to me the Lloyd skill set goes against everything BB stands for. BB preaches to his defenders to scoop up the fumble and run with it and try to score...make a play....not fall on the ball. He let BJGE go because he got brought down on first contact.
Lloyds 50 1st downs is an incredible stat, but I have to believe that BB wants a 3 down WR to be able to make plays with the ball.
The reality is....Wes Welker is the Pats deep threat, not Lloyd. A shifty, vertically challenged, short armed slot WR is the Pats deep threat. And this formula continues to produce insuffucient points in their losing playoff efforts.

First of all, he doesn't have zero playmaking skills. If you think that either you have never watched a Pats game or you are clueless. Lloyd has made some of the most impossible catches that any receiver has made.

Second of all, you dismiss the fact that Lloyd has 50 first down catches on 74 receptions (meaning 2/3rds of his catches were for first down) and say Lloyd isn't the type of receiver Belichick wants because he doesn't scoop up fumbles and run with it. I agree. The last thing Belichick wants on this offense is a receiver who when he catches the ball consistently moves the chains. I mean what head coach wants a receiver that if you throw to him three time, at least two of them will produce a first down reception?

Third, Belichick let BJGE go because he had ridley and Vereen and BJGE was looking for too much money. If BJGE was willing to resign for the Pats' price, he would probably be here. BJGE got decent starter money.

Third, Lloyd was the Pats' outside threat. His presence made Welker and Hernandez and Gronk better because it opened up lanes inside.

 

[borg]

First, McDaniels pushed for Maroney only. That was his brother's fault. He coached Maroney at Minnesota and talked up Maroney to his brother. Besides, most people thought it was a solid pick at the time and the Colts admitted they were targetting him. Belichick scouted Jackson himself. So he is culpable for that pick.

Second, I don't know if you can say all of McDaniels' choices on offense are questionable at best. He did draft Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker. Both are solid WRs. The addition of Hoomanawanui and Lloyd this year to the offense on McDaniels suggestion have been good pick ups.

Third, I think Lloyd was what the Pats needed on this offense. He was an outside threat which was desperately missing the previous two years. The Pats didn't have the third highest scoring offense of all time for nothing and the addition of Lloyd was a part of it.

You refer to Lloyd as an outside "threat". How threatened are teams knowing Lloyd goes to the ground immediately. Passing to Lloyd means Brady has to string pass after pass to move the ball down field. Does his presence on the field demand safety help/over the top coverage/double teams? As a D coordinator, how many resources do you slide over knowing Lloyd will hit the turf ASAP?
Torry Smith is a 'threat", Lloyd is a possession receiver

 

[BadMoFo]

Well the numbers don't lie, Lloyd has zero play making skills. When the ball hits his hands, the play is over.....fact.
Seems to me the Lloyd skill set goes against everything BB stands for. BB preaches to his defenders to scoop up the fumble and run with it and try to score...make a play....not fall on the ball. He let BJGE go because he got brought down on first contact.
Lloyds 50 1st downs is an incredible stat, but I have to believe that BB wants a 3 down WR to be able to make plays with the ball.
The reality is....Wes Welker is the Pats deep threat, not Lloyd. A shifty, vertically challenged, short armed slot WR is the Pats deep threat. And this formula continues to produce insuffucient points in their losing playoff efforts.

Really, he let BenJarvus go for that reason? Cause you have direct knowledge of what happened in the front office. It couldn't have been that he was looking to make a lot more money elsewhere and we already had three other young running backs in camp. Nah, couldn't be that.

 

[buile]

Does anyone even look at the ball placement on throws to Lloyd?

Brady puts the ball low to protect Lloyd, and ensure he's the only one who can make a play on it. You cannot get YAC on those.

 

[zipster9]

Lloyd in the slot would look brutal.

I'm fine with Lloyd in his role but i'd love to see another option on that #3 spot.

Lloyd is not a vertical threat, and no more than a #2/#3 receiver.

Patriots must get a tall, vertical WR. Our DBs cannot jump-ball, and we are dead if we do not upgrade to a near-shutdown-tall-CB, and a tall, vertical WR. Offensively, that is.

 

[Rob0729]

You refer to Lloyd as an outside "threat". How threatened are teams knowing Lloyd goes to the ground immediately. Passing to Lloyd means Brady has to string pass after pass to move the ball down field. Does his presence on the field demand safety help/over the top coverage/double teams? As a D coordinator, how many resources do you slide over knowing Lloyd will hit the turf ASAP?
Torry Smith is a 'threat", Lloyd is a possession receiver

The guy caught 74 balls this year. So do teams say "No need to cover him because he will just catch the ball and fall down anyway. Sure we will give up a first down, but it won't be a TD." Seriously, do you understand football?

Also, when have the Pats not been a methodical offense where they try to string together a drive of 8-10 plus plays to eat up clock and keep the opposing defense on the field?

Lastly, when did a possession receiver become a bad word? Cris Carter was a possession WR. Steve Largent was a possession WR. Wes Welker is a possession WR. Hines Ward was a possession WR. Wayne Chrebet was a possession WR. Seriously, when did being a possession WR mean you can't be a starter?

 

[jbb9s]

How do you expect to pay all these guys in ONE facet of the game and still have $$ to field a respectable defense/OL/RB once Ridley/Vereen rookie contracts run out.

Vereen is probably a 3rd string RB, probably was 4th string until #3 got a PED suspension. Vereen is behind on the depth chart an UDFA div 2 off the street and a guy drafted lower than him the same age. And was behind a UDFA rookie earlier this year before said PED suspension and a different one last year (law firm).

I remember the bust Dave Thomas - Guy had like 180 yards in 3 yrs. In one game, against the worst defense in the league (JAX), with Graham and Watson out, he had about 90 yards at Brady's #1. Reminds me of the Houston game and Vereen. A bunch of chatter about "upside". Well as long as there are undrafted free agents RBs as good as the others BB has plucked out (Law firm, Woodhead, Bolden) I don't think Vereen is worth a dime more.

 

[Rob0729]

Does anyone even look at the ball placement on throws to Lloyd?

Brady puts the ball low to protect Lloyd, and ensure he's the only one who can make a play on it. You cannot get YAC on those.

Half the time, Lloyd is diving for his catches. Brady most likely throws the ball that way because he knows Lloyd is able to make impossible diving catches which means he can throw it to an area where Lloyd can only catch. Most times it is a play beyond the first down marker. So Brady sacrifices the YAC to get the first down.

I don't get this logic that although Lloyd caught 50 1st down catches (which was the most on the Pats this year) that it is nothing because his YAC number was low. I mean it tells me that when Brady was looking to get a first down, he would look to Lloyd. Now it is a bad thing.

 

[Sciz]

So what you guys are saying is that you'd rather he have a 4 yard reception and 8 yards of YAC than a 12 yard reception?

 

[Rob0729]

So what you guys are saying is that you'd rather he have a 4 yard reception and 8 yards of YAC than a 12 yard reception?

Who wouldn't? No style points in a 12 yard reception. It is all about the style points.

 

[Rob0729]

BTW, Lloyd had 12.3 YPC which is second only to Gronk in YPC of a Patriots receiver who has caught 10 or more balls this season. It was more than YAC guys like Hernandez and Welker.

 

[Onedaful]

Don't you think that may also have to do with where the ball is placed?

Of course I do. I wasn't putting the blame just on Lloyd but I see Brady hitting Gronk, Hern, Vereen, Welker, and Ridley in stride at least consistently and almost all the time Lloyd is on the ground.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

Of course I do. I wasn't putting the blame just on Lloyd but I see Brady hitting Gronk, Hern, Vereen, Welker, and Ridley in stride at least consistently and almost all the time Lloyd is on the ground.

Its a lot easier to hit a guy in stride when he's five yards away and has a linebacker running after him. Lloyd's job is to catch the ball where a real good corner can't get to it. That's why he ends up on the ground more often than not.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I still don't understand why people are obsessing over YAC so much, let alone Lloyd's.

First, Lloyd's YAC has historically been around this range. Apart from a 2-catch season where he averaged 7.5 YAC (obviously skewed), he's never averaged more than 3.4 YAC and if you exclude his two seasons where he barely played, 5 of 9 seasons have ended with less than an average of 3 YAC. Yet everyone seems soooooooooooo surprised by this.

That still doesn't get into the question of why we obsess over YAC. Maybe it's because we've got a few guys who are good at it, but think about what that means.

Welker averaged over 6 YAC compared to 2.6 for Lloyd, yet Lloyd's average catch was 12.3 yards vs. 11.5 for Welker.

So despite Welker's incredible YAC numbers, his average catch-and-run would still be less than Lloyd's catch-and-fall routine. Ditto Edelman and Hernandez, who had much better average YAC numbers but fewer yards per catch and total yards. The only Pats receiver who averaged more yards per catch than Lloyd was Gronk.

Obviously Welker had more total yards and caught a higher percentage of passes and averaged more yards per target. But to act as if Lloyd's lack of YAC makes him a crappy receiver is ridiculous.

YAC is one of the most over-rated and stupid stats and I'm tired of people obsessing over it. James Jones, who led the league in TDs this season, had less YAC than Lloyd. Percy Harvin was in the top 10 but averaged less than 11 yards per catch.

And while 8 of the top 10 YAC guys are receivers, 10 of the top 20 are running backs. And this is the metric you want to obsess over to evaluate receivers???