Wolf on the OL: I *Think* We Have the Pieces to Compete... Oy Vey...

[mgteich]

Do you really need to list players when the 4-13 teams talent is less now than it was last year at most positions and they chose not to spend 50,000,000?
The only players we acquired were borderline guys who are unlikely to be starters. Surely the free agents other teams that were better than 4-13 signed to be starters and make their team better would have made this one better, no?

I agree that other poor teams have signed starters, primarily on Defense. WASH was especially successful, starting with the worst Defense in the NFL.

Unfortunately, we needed expensive starting positions: QB. LT and WR. Little was available when the cap was increased.

Yes, I am a homer who wants to focus on 2025 and 2026.

But, yes, I would have spent $10M on backup one-year LT's. Counting on Okorafor, Anderson and Lowe was a MAJOR, MAJOR error.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree that other poor teams have signed starters, primarily on Defense. WASH was especially successful, starting with the worst Defense in the NFL.

Unfortunately, we needed expensive starting positions: QB. LT and WR. Little was available when the cap was increased.

Yes, I am a homer who wants to focus on 2025 and 2026.

But, yes, I would have spent $10M on backup one-year LT's. Counting on Okorafor, Anderson and Lowe was a MAJOR, MAJOR error.

We neeeded a whole lot more than Qb,Wr and LT.
And here is the thing, if you can’t spend it on those positions, spend it on others to strengthen the team that surrounds those weaknesses.

 

[mgteich]

We neeeded a whole lot more than Qb,Wr and LT.
And here is the thing, if you can’t spend it on those positions, spend it on others to strengthen the team that surrounds those weaknesses.

I agree.

We should have signed a stud or two in the defensive from seven.

We did think that were set with Godchaux, Barmore, Wise and White. But we need backups and certainly an EDGE player.

 

[goheels22002]

The problem is there are very few good offensive linemen released and last year Vederian Lowe looked like a good option to Wolf. Color me skeptical...

You are right about the quality, but the Patriots are in no position to overlook a player who can play offensive tackle at this level. The Bears cut veteran OT Jacob Curhan today who started for the Seahawks before coming over to the Bears. There are guys like that out there who could help while they move Okorafor to guard while we wait for Cole Strange and Sidy Sow to get back. The Browns cut OT Chim Okorafor today as well. Experience at OT is essential so that guys can play in their natural positions.

 

[Uptown]

 

[goheels22002]

Sign him!

 

[Ring 6]

I agree.

We should have signed a stud or two in the defensive from seven.

We did think that were set with Godchaux, Barmore, Wise and White. But we need backups and certainly an EDGE player.

So let’s look at your last statement.
We use 3 DT types, whether together occasionally or in rotation.
Last year it was Barmore (785 snaps) godchaux (685) Guy (521)
When we use 2 we usually play a DE with them , Wise who had 614 and white split between De and OLB had 521 so let’s say half were as a DL.
So that’s about 2700 snaps (about 2.5 per down) shared by 5DL.
Guy was never replaced, Barmore is gone and white is playing OLB.
So we need 2700 snaps and the 2 guys left played 1300 last year. Who is going to play all of those DL snaps? We have effectively lost half of thr DL and I see no quality replacements at all.

Then on the edge you have a run defender Jennings who can’t rush the passer and a pass rusher Uche who can’t play the run, so they really have to share 1 spot. That means White is a full time edge player and we haven’t seen him show that skill set yet.

We are very different up front than we were last year and I don’t see any upgrade.

 

[dliverey44]

Udoh is pushing Trevor Penning for the starting right tackle job.

Trevor Penning has the edge, but a competition is brewing at right tackle for the Saints

What looked for most of New Orleans Saints training camp to be inevitable is now up in the air: Former first round pick Trevor Penning has real competition for the

www.nola.com

Another player I mentioned this offseason was Yosh Nijman, he just came off the PUP and began practicing. If any one of these guys shake free the Patriots had better be on the phone.

I have a confession, I have given you **** Woz but I also wanted Yosh. I still stand by Peat and Udoh would not have helped as much as you think, so we would be in the almost the same position we are now.

 

[Wozzy]

I have a confession, I have given you **** Woz but I also wanted Yosh. I still stand by Peat and Udoh would not have helped as much as you think, so we would be in the almost the same position we are now.

Andrus Peat has been to three pro bowls.

Udoh played in all 17 games including 16 starts in 2021, 1,076 offensive snaps that year (94% of the Vikings offensive snaps) and only allowed one sack.

But yeah... Lowe and Okafor should be great.

 

[Fuzz]

Andrus Peat has been to three pro bowls.

Udoh played in all 17 games including 16 starts in 2021, 1,076 offensive snaps that year (94% of the Vikings offensive snaps) and only allowed one sack.

But yeah... Lowe and Okafor should be great.

Did you stop following the NFL in 2021? Because that would explain a lot. Both of these guys would have seemed like decent pickups back then.

 

[Wozzy]

Did you stop following the NFL in 2021? Because that would explain a lot. Both of these guys would have seemed like decent pickups back then.

Peat was the oldest of the group, he'll be 31 this season. Oli Udoh will be 27, Yosh Nijman will be 28.

When I targeted these guys in free agency, I did so because they were at or under thirty. None of these guys are old.

For reference Okorafor will be 27... and unlike him these guys are actually good.

 

[Wozzy]

Jag

 

[Fuzz]

Peat was the oldest of the group, he'll be 31 this season. Oli Udoh will be 27, Yosh Nijman will be 28.

When I targeted these guys in free agency, I did so because they were at or under thirty. None of these guys are old.

For reference Okorafor will be 27... and unlike him these guys are actually good.

I didn't say they were old, I said all of their careers peaked around 2021. Peat was a pro bowler in 2020, but got injured in 2021 and has not been the same player since then. Udoh lost his starting role after 2021 and has mostly been an underperforming backup ever since. Nijman has been a spot starter only when players ahead of him have been injured and also played his best football in 2021. He started 1 game in 2023 and was publicly criticized by his OC, who said "Right now, he's a backup tackle for us. That's where he's at and football is a very competitive sport and some guys rise to that competition and some guys don't, so that's basically what I have to say about that.".

 

[Wozzy]

I didn't say they were old, I said all of their careers peaked around 2021. Peat was a pro bowler in 2020, but got injured in 2021 and has not been the same player since then. Udoh lost his starting role after 2021 and has mostly been an underperforming backup ever since. Nijman has been a spot starter only when players ahead of him have been injured and also played his best football in 2021. He started 1 game in 2023 and was publicly criticized by his OC, who said "Right now, he's a backup tackle for us. That's where he's at and football is a very competitive sport and some guys rise to that competition and some guys don't, so that's basically what I have to say about that.".

You're dancing all over the place. First they're not good, I provide stats and accolades. Then they're old, I provide ages. Now it's not that they're old, they're just not good again because they peaked years before the age of thirty and on another thread you're defending Lowe.

The Koolade is tasty, but it has a weird aftertaste. These players mentioned were better options than Lowe and Okorafor, if you can't see our two starting tackles stink... then there's nothing left to say.

 

[Pape]

You're dancing all over the place. First they're not good, I provide stats and accolades. Then they're old, I provide ages. Now it's not that they're old, they're just not good again because they peaked years before the age of thirty and on another thread you're defending Lowe.

The Koolade is tasty, but it has a weird aftertaste. These players mentioned were better options than Lowe and Okorafor, if you can't see our two starting tackles stink... then there's nothing left to say.

The question is are they better than what we have

They answer, based on what we have seen, is yes

 

[Fuzz]

You're dancing all over the place. First they're not good, I provide stats and accolades. Then they're old, I provide ages. Now it's not that they're old, they're just not good again because they peaked years before the age of thirty and on another thread you're defending Lowe.

The Koolade is tasty, but it has a weird aftertaste. These players mentioned were better options than Lowe and Okorafor, if you can't see our two starting tackles stink... then there's nothing left to say.

Ok, I will state it as simply as possible - Udoh and Nijman were never “good”. They looked promising early in their careers (circa 2021), but are now career backups. Neither of them had a starting role last year, and neither have a starting role this season on bad teams.

Peat was good 4 years ago before his injury. He’s now a bottom of the roster player with a contract close to the vet minimum. He was on the roster bubble for each of the last two years. He’s also over 30.

 

[Wozzy]

Ok, I will state it as simply as possible - Udoh and Nijman were never “good”. They looked promising early in their careers (circa 2021), but are now career backups. Neither of them had a starting role last year, and neither have a starting role this season on bad teams.

Peat was good 4 years ago before his injury. He’s now a bottom of the roster player with a contract close to the vet minimum. He was on the roster bubble for each of the last two years. He’s also over 30.

Oli Udoh was a 6th round pick. Yosh Nijman was an UDFA, Peat was a 1st round pick... they're all pretty good but undervalued. Each has their own warts, two (Udoh, Nijman) were coming off injury so they needed to sign "show me" deals to prove their health. I preferred the younger guys. They're good, our tackles aren't... like I said there's not much left to debate when you're touting Lowe as an answer.

 

[Fuzz]

Oli Udoh was a 6th round pick. Yosh Nijman was an UDFA, Peat was a 1st round pick... they're all pretty good but undervalued. Each has their own warts, two (Udoh, Nijman) were coming off injury so they needed to sign "show me" deals to prove their health. I preferred the younger guys. They're good, our tackles aren't... like I said there's not much left to debate when you're touting Lowe as an answer.

You’re putting words in my mouth - when did I ever tout Lowe as the answer? I just prefer him over your suggestions, and thats a very low bar to clear. I have low expectations, but I’m encouraged that the coaching staff puts a lot of faith in him. He’s a young player drafted as a project in his critical sink or swim 3rd year.

 

[PatMan]

I was listening to Matt Light talk about practices and coaching on Julian Edelman's podcast and he brought up some really good points that pertain to the Patriots O-line struggles today.

The basic jist of what he said was this...

The way they practiced and trained from 2001-2010 doesn't exist in Today's NFL. Padded practices have almost disappeared. There's no way starting offensive lineman can get the number of padded reps required to improve technique, prepare their bodies for the grind of the season, and become a cohesive unit by the end of training camp. And if you're a backup you probably only get a handful of padded practice reps over the course of a season... Best of luck if you get thrown in a game.

It made me think Eliot Wolf and company (and Belichick before them) are still approaching the process of building an offensive line like it's pre-2010. Wolf talking about "having the pieces" and guys having "the tools" to play other positions at the professional level just underscores how badly he's misidentified the problem the team is facing. Whether the guys have the tools or not, if they haven't grown up playing the position - you're not going to be able to get them the necessary practice reps with contact to make that change a possibility at this level. This is particularly true if you keep drafting your offensive linemen on day two and beyond.

I have a feeling we've quietly entered a new era of the NFL where the positions you can draft late and coach up are essentially skill positions, because of the strong emphasis on non-contact 7 on 7 drills during offseason/training camp/and in season-practices per the CBA. This also explains why Wolf and the rest of the front office was so caught off guard by the run on offensive tackles in the first two rounds of this years draft. The rest of the league has adjusted while the Patriots remain stuck in the past.

 

[PancakeBlockPaul]

I have a feeling we've quietly entered a new era of the NFL where the positions you can draft late and coach up are essentially skill positions, because of the strong emphasis on non-contact 7 on 7 drills during offseason/training camp/and in season-practices per the CBA. This also explains why Wolf and the rest of the front office was so caught off guard by the run on offensive tackles in the first two rounds of this years draft. The rest of the league has adjusted while the Patriots remain stuck in the past.

I was talking about this before and agree with them not being able to get in enough practice beforehand. It makes total sense. Less true practice (padded/hitting) means less time learning. Would need to either extend the boring preseason or have a longer TC me thinks. Or even just get rid of preseason games and add 5 more regular season games...see how that would work out. =D