Why the hell did we not try harder to keep TB12?

[Wozzy]

Well, the patriots had a pretty rough go at it with some terrible picks. Cyrus Jones, Jordan Richard's, Duke Dawson, Rivers, Gonzales, etc. Patriots never really had young talent to fill in the gaps. Patriots also had some phenomenal FA pick ups and trades in the past and haven't had as much lately.

I am just explaining why the team talent level sucks ATM.

Who hasn't had bad picks?

The Chiefs wasted a 1st round pick on Dee Ford and moved on from him, a 2nd round pick on Breeland Speaks and another 2nd round pick on Tanoh Kpassagnon... no doubt on some Chiefs message board somewhere there's a group saying Andy Reid sucks.

 

[Wozzy]

It would be a lot easier debating with you if you would just stop already with the straw man fallacies.

I never said "it was all about Brady."
I never said "no other player was pivotal to winning those rings."

The Patriots won those Super Bowl titles AS A TEAM. Many different players made pivotal contributions throughout the course of the dynasty. Coaches made pivotal contributions throughout the course of the dynasty. However, Brady made the most pivotal contributions, not all, but the most. If I'm ranking the most important contributors throughout the entire course of the dynasty then Brady is at the top of the list. However, the list doesn't end there. Other contributors in descending order would follow. Do you understand?


I provided a detailed reply about the cap. Go back and read it if you want. Or not. But it's there so don't say I've ignored the cap because I have addressed it already.


The Organization drafted Brady, at 199, so let's not act like bb knew what he was doing there. Thereafter, how would you know what bb did or did not "teach" Brady? What about the different quarterback coaches and offensive coordinators that Brady has worked with? There is no scenario where bb is exclusively teaching Brady everything he knows. Brady wasn't an empty slate by the time he was drafted into the NFL either. So your Mr. Miyagi and Daniel-son analogy doesn't work.

Regarding your "except you" comment, I already pointed out that when asked who's more important to the dynasty?... 70% say Brady over Belichick. So I'm hardly the exception.


So when Belichick is taking a victory lap over passing Don Shula for the most wins by an NFL head coach, you'll say the same thing? We'll find out after bb strings enough losing records together to surpass Shula.

The fact of the matter is, wins and losses are tracked for starting quarterbacks. Especially when it comes to Super Bowls. When Brady was sitting on 3 rings for a decade, all you heard from Montana fans was Montana has more rings than Brady... once Brady blew past him that debate was over for good.


Brady would have 700 touchdowns and 10 rings if he had played with Sean Payton in New Orleans. (jk)

Brees is not even in the conservation as the greatest ever despite the stats. Why? Because HE wasn't good enough when it counted most. Same with your bo Rodgers. Let's see if he doesn't suck again in a conference championship game this weekend. Rodgers loses this game, I don't care if it's 60-59, he'll be out of the conversation for good too.


Yeah right, Matthew Slater is the real reason why Brady has 6 rings. I'll generously give Vinatieri a small piece of the credit pie for the FG's.

Who are these HOF offensive linemen Brady played with? I'll dial it back a little, all-pros? Pro-bowlers? It's a very short list. I know Mankins was one until bb shipped his ass out of town.

I can tell you this for sure... Brady was surrounded by way fewer pro-bowlers than Montana or Manning.


Yes, it's THAT important.

You realize Flacco was phenomenal in that Super Bowl winning postseason? The dude had 11 TD's and 0 INT's. HE was the main reason why the Ravens won that postseason.

Eli Manning... in the two Super Bowl runs he combined for an 8-0 record, 15 TD's and 2 INT's.
Otherwise he was 0-4 with 3 TD's and 7 INT's.
When Eli played like an elite QB, they won.
When Eli played like a bum, they lost.

Do we have to talk about Foles? Butler on the sideline. bb gifted that one to Philly.

So in short you never say any of the things you say or don't really mean them that way it's just me creating a straw man, BB didn't know what he was doing drafting Brady, Brees and Rogers suck compared to Brady and that was the difference between 6 rings and 1, special teams, defense and offensive line don't matter in the big picture and lastly Malcolm Butler, a corner disgruntled about his contract who was crying on the sidelines because he knew he screwed over his teammates was the difference in the 2017 Super Bowl where the Eagles rushed for 164 yards, it wasn't because Donta Hightower, Alan Branch, Jon Jones and Patrick Chung were hurt... got it.

Let me guess... your next post is where you say "I never said any of that," then go on to repeat these fallacies, restarting your circular logic that ultimately concludes with Tom Brady being responsible for everything.

 

[Nunchucks]

So in short you never say any of the things you say or don't really mean them that way it's just me creating a straw man, BB didn't know what he was doing drafting Brady, Brees and Rogers suck compared to Brady and that was the difference between 6 rings and 1, special teams, defense and offensive line don't matter in the big picture and lastly Malcolm Butler, a corner disgruntled about his contract who was crying on the sidelines because he knew he screwed over his teammates was the difference in the 2017 Super Bowl where the Eagles rushed for 164 yards, it wasn't because Donta Hightower, Alan Branch, Jon Jones and Patrick Chung were hurt... got it.

Let me guess... your next post is where you say "I never said any of that," then go on to repeat these fallacies, restarting your circular logic that ultimately concludes with Tom Brady being responsible for everything.

You must have me confused with someone saying belichick is a bad gm. He has had a rough go of it lately. I am just stating that. The DL, LB, and Wr position is in rough shape and belichicks drafts haven't helped.

 

[crawhammer]

Ok wozzy, answer a few simple questions:

1. Did Belichick realize he was drafting a once in a lifetime franchise quarterback at 199?

And don't give me a bunch of horsesh*t about Brady being a pile of clay that Belichick molded into an epically talented quarterback.

2. If you HAD TO single out one player, not an entire unit like the defense or OL, as contributing the most to the Patriots Dynasty (2001-2019), who would it be?

3. You don't really believe that bullcrap about Butler crying on the sideline during SB 52 because "he knew HE screwed his teammates over," right? That was satire?

 

[Wozzy]

You must have me confused with someone saying belichick is a bad gm. He has had a rough go of it lately. I am just stating that. The DL, LB, and Wr position is in rough shape and belichicks drafts haven't helped.

You're responding for someone else, unless you have multiple profiles or personalities?

Jakobi and Gunner are 24, N'Keal and Asiasi are 23, Keene is 21... These guys will all be back and any improvement at QB can only help them, but a substantial improvement at QB could help them thrive. I don't see how any of these guys could make jumps or improvements with the worst starting QB in the NFL this year.

The DL could use a shot of talent but they were missing Beau Allen for sure, he was the only Nose Tackle on the roster until they signed Carl Davis and then he got hurt, so they were short on mass all season. Guy and Butler got hurt for stretches as well. But you're right they should invest some draft or free agent capital here.

The LB'ers are children, they need experience. Hightower returning should give them a shot of leadership otherwise they should probably bring in some other LB's to compete. It's not all doom and gloom assuming the kids grow.

 

[Wozzy]

Ok wozzy, answer a few simple questions:

1. Did Belichick realize he was drafting a once in a lifetime franchise quarterback at 199?

And don't give me a bunch of horsesh*t about Brady being a pile of clay that Belichick molded into an epically talented quarterback.

2. If you HAD TO single out one player, not an entire unit like the defense or OL, as contributing the most to the Patriots Dynasty (2001-2019), who would it be?

3. You don't really believe that bullcrap about Butler crying on the sideline during SB 52 because "he knew HE screwed his teammates over," right? That was satire?

1. I'm sure BB has never drafted or signed any rookie thinking they were a franchise anything. Moreover in 2000 Brady wasn't a lifetime franchise QB, he turned into one with the tutelage of Bill, Charlie Weis and probably Scarnecchia. This revisionist version of history where Brady exited college a finished product is nonsense. BB drafted Tom because he had him as the highest ranked QB on the board.

2. Why would I? I'm here debating with you that a single position alone can't change your entire team and believe it. Deshaun Watson isn't less of a QB on a dumpster fire of a team. Tom Brady was here the longest, had a huge contribution as they didn't have to go looking to fill the position. But I'm certainly not going to compare him to other position groups that actually get physical on every play and whose careers by default don't last that long. Part of Tom's longevity has been rule changes that protect the position. He's a tough guy, he was tough back when they were allowed to hit the QB so I'm not going to demean him at all. But longevity has to do with rule changes as much as anything... unless of course you buy the avocado ice cream nonsense. Would pliability have helped Alex Smith when his RB whiffed on a block and pretzeled his leg?

3. Butler was crying on the sideline before the game, he was disgruntled over his contract, he lashed out the week of the Super Bowl and was a problem child all season. He wasn't good all season either, but they tried to get him straight. He was easily their worst starting defender all season and frankly after Gilmore manned up Alshon Jeffrey the WR's did no damage in the second half, it wasn't until Chung broke his arm that Zach Ertz had his way. The reality is the Eagles offensive line was massive and the best in the league and manhandled a front that was missing 350 pound Alan Branch and Donta Hightower. Butler wouldn't have made an iota of difference, he wouldn't have prevented them from running all over us... that's more bogus BB hate pushed by WEEI and the rest. You want me to point out a mistake by BB, it was not taking a 2nd round pick from New Orleans for Butler prior to that season and insisting on a 1st.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Who hasn't had bad picks?

The Chiefs wasted a 1st round pick on Dee Ford and moved on from him, a 2nd round pick on Breeland Speaks and another 2nd round pick on Tanoh Kpassagnon... no doubt on some Chiefs message board somewhere there's a group saying Andy Reid sucks.

chiefs?

they have drafted Travis Kelce, Tyreek Hill and Patrick Mahomes. 3 best players at their position.

we drafted Devin AssIRsi , Jarrett Stidbum and Nicole Harriet.

 

[PatsWSB47]

Can we please stop cherry picking stats to "prove" It was Belichick or it was Brady? Look it, each camp makes good points. Accept that. Dont ignore the points. Maybe then you'll realize that it was was both if them.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

The BB worshipping fan cult locked another thread! They can’t stand any credit being given to Brady over BB.

They still think Asiasi, Harry, Michel, and Keene will be good! “Give them more time” they said the same about Vince Valentine, Cyrus Jones, Josh Boyce, Derek Rivers, Antonio García, JoeJuan Williams, Yodney Cajuste, Jordan Richards, Geneo Grissom, etc

 

[sb1]

The BB worshipping fan cult locked another thread! They can’t stand any credit being given to Brady over BB.

They still think Asiasi, Harry, Michel, and Keene will be good! “Give them more time” they said the same about Vince Valentine, Cyrus Jones, Josh Boyce, Derek Rivers, Antonio García, JoeJuan Williams, Yodney Cajuste, Jordan Richards, Geneo Grissom, etc

And if by “they” you really mean nobody here then you’re right.

 

[Wozzy]

chiefs?

they have drafted Travis Kelce, Tyreek Hill and Patrick Mahomes. 3 best players at their position.

we drafted Devin AssIRsi , Jarrett Stidbum and Nicole Harriet.

Kelce was drafted 8 years ago and missed his first season with injury. I suspect if you were a Chiefs fan around then you’d have called him a bust after year one like Asiasi, Keene and Harry. Either way he saw his first Super Bowl in year seven.

They got a great deal on Hill as he was a criminal coming out of college and dodged a bullet again when the DA and police department thought a child’s welfare wasn’t as important as winning football games last year, otherwise he’d be in jail right now.

Let’s see what BB does in the draft for a QB now that he knows he needs one and uses a higher pick than a 4th. The weapons in KC benefit from Andy Reid, I doubt anyone would dispute that... it’s only Belichick, who despite being wildly more successful than Reid seemingly bumbled and stumbled his way to 6 rings.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

1. I'm sure BB has never drafted or signed any rookie thinking they were a franchise anything. Moreover in 2000 Brady wasn't a lifetime franchise QB, he turned into one with the tutelage of Bill, Charlie Weis and probably Scarnecchia. This revisionist version of history where Brady exited college a finished product is nonsense. BB drafted Tom because he had him as the highest ranked QB on the board.

Words and statements have meanings, yes?

Can you explain specifically what you mean when you say Brady ”turned into one under the tutelage of Bill, Charlie Weis and probably Scarnecchia”?

Specifically what does that mean? Football lectures? Film breakdowns? Body building tips? Private lectures?

Which skills were transmitted? I am curious why Bledsoe, Huard, Bishop, and other QBs were unable to turn into one. Why would those guys fail despite receiving the same tutelage?

Would you also describe Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, or Patrick Mahomes as guys who “turned into (a franchise QB)” by citing their head coach, offensive coordinator, and offensive line coach from their rookie seasons? I haven’t really seen that same type of characterization of those players...so if this is unique to Brady, I assume you can walk me through a day in Tom Brady’s rookie season and how the coaching staff developed him.

 

[crawhammer]

1. I'm sure BB has never drafted or signed any rookie thinking they were a franchise anything. Moreover in 2000 Brady wasn't a lifetime franchise QB, he turned into one with the tutelage of Bill, Charlie Weis and probably Scarnecchia.

Oh that's rich. You said exactly what I said was horsesh*t. lil' bill molded Brady out of clay. Oh wait, Weis and Scarnecchia assisted. The problem with what you're saying is...

Rohan Davey
Kliff Kingsbury
Matt Cassel
Kevin O'Connell
Zac Robinson
Ryan Mallett
Jimmy Garoppolo
Jacoby Brissett
Danny Etling
Jarrett Stidham

That list of mostly rubbish is all other quarterbacks drafted and schooled by your hero lil' bill. According to you, they all should be lifetime franchise quarterbacks. WTF happened?

2. Why would I? I'm here debating with you that a single position alone can't change your entire team and believe it.

You see, there's you're problem... "you believe it."

I guess you also believe Joe Walsh should have just stuck with Steve DeBerg? Seriously, who needs Joe Montana?

Matt Flynn had 6 TD passes for Green Bay once, I suppose you believe Green Bay should have shipped Rodgers out of town for a 3rd rounder? 5th rounder?

Hell, let's just do away with any notion of the GOAT. Babe Ruth... fraud. Wayne Gretzky... clown. Michael Jordan... LOSER. Mike Tyson... wimp!

Butler wouldn't have made an iota of difference

************! he had started 55 games in a row so apparently even your hero thought he made some kind of a difference. Over the course of the three previous seasons Butler led the team in CB starts, snaps, tackles, passes defended, and interceptions. And you say "he wouldn't have made an iota of difference" in the f*cking Super Bowl?! Did you watch the game? Eric Rowe, Johnson Bademosi, and Jordan Richards combined for 98 snaps in the SB. 9-f*cking-8! They were collectively horrendous from snaps 1 through 98.

Butler wouldn't have made an iota of difference... worst take ever.

 

[1960Pats]

And the fact that you think quoting sack stats for a 3-4 DT shows you know nothing about watching football and I question if you even were a Patriot fan during that time. Big Sey was a monster and a joy to watch completely taking over games even when he had a big donut on the stat sheet.

Trading Seymour was the last time I was upset with a move by the Pats and I wasn't alone. It stung a little more when the first pick we got from the Raiduhs turned out to be a lot worse than we thought, maybe because of Seymour's influence on their defense.

 

[Tony2046]

Exactly. It was not because we "went all in" from 2014-2019. Our team building approach did not change during that stretch. The difference was all the draft pick whiffs. We became top heavy with the biggest contracts going to aging vets and no youth behind them. Do you know how ridiculous it is that Bill STILL has not replaced AH, Gronk or Edelman? And that is just the offensive side.

The NFL's system is designed so that winners pick last and losers pick first. It hopes for parity.
The Patriots have defied that model for two decades. It eventually caught up to them.

Yes BB had some poor drafts but he has also defied the system for twenty years.

It is what it is. We won and they lost.

Give BB a few years to reset and we'll be back in the hunt.

 

[Tony2046]

So in short you never say any of the things you say or don't really mean them that way it's just me creating a straw man, BB didn't know what he was doing drafting Brady, Brees and Rogers suck compared to Brady and that was the difference between 6 rings and 1, special teams, defense and offensive line don't matter in the big picture and lastly Malcolm Butler, a corner disgruntled about his contract who was crying on the sidelines because he knew he screwed over his teammates was the difference in the 2017 Super Bowl where the Eagles rushed for 164 yards, it wasn't because Donta Hightower, Alan Branch, Jon Jones and Patrick Chung were hurt... got it.

Let me guess... your next post is where you say "I never said any of that," then go on to repeat these fallacies, restarting your circular logic that ultimately concludes with Tom Brady being responsible for everything.

How dare you refute the Crack Spanker.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Part of Tom's longevity has been rule changes that protect the position. He's a tough guy, he was tough back when they were allowed to hit the QB so I'm not going to demean him at all. But longevity has to do with rule changes as much as anything... unless of course you buy the avocado ice cream nonsense. Would pliability have helped Alex Smith when his RB whiffed on a block and pretzeled his leg?

Imagine denying Brady is a total outlier at 43 years old. Others in their late 30s/early 40s who also had the same protection and rules are gone or on their way out, specifically citing the physical toll on their body.

P. Manning, E. Manning, Rivers, and Luck are gone. Brees and Roethlisberger are soon to follow. Basically every one of his rivals, many of whom started after him, will retire long before he does. Aaron Rodgers is soon to be the next closest in age at 37 - six years younger - and Rodgers has eight less seasons of mileage. The pattern emerges...QB protections do help extend longevity, but by maybe 5 years from the 1980s/90s. The old normal limit was early-mid 30s. Now it’s mid-late 30s. 43 is crazy, but that he’s playing at this level is crazier.

Yet a guy plowing into Alex Smith’s leg...means...Tom’s fitness regimen is pointless? Might as well make an equally irrelevant point that pliability wouldn’t help someone who got hit by a bus or got into a plane crash.

 

[luuked]

Yet a guy plowing into Alex Smith’s leg...means...Tom’s fitness regimen is pointless?

The point is that Brady has been lucky except for one hit in 2008 to not have a OT falling into his knee or a pass rusher being blocked at an awkward angle into his legs. None of his fitness regimen would have prevented a catastrophic injury and could have been career ending or at least altering. And since all of this is just random circumstance none of it is in his control whatsoever.

On the other hand he is also one of the few QBs out there who has taken lessons on how to fall properly and has enough self awareness to know when to risk his body -- something that QBs like JimmyG never learned -- which is the second part of the equation: the one he actually has control over. So good on him minimizing the risk.

His entire pliability schitck most likely helps him with regeneration between games and might prevent soft tissue issues -- which both at his advanced age would have a cumulative effect the longer a season goes -- but has absolutely no bearing on a 300 LB linemen falling at high speed into his planted leg. That is luck and randomness.

 

[1960Pats]

Now do the same thing but figure out the average draft slot for each team, and the expected careers of players based on those draft slots and you will find that the Pats' drafts have been MUCH better than these other teams.

I actually did keep track of the rounds and the selection numbers but I haven't analyzed those yet.

I did break it down by years drafted though. These are the totals for each AFCE team, counting only players drafted from 2013-2020.
Team / Players drafted / Still playing / %
Bills / 57 / 41 / 71.9%
Pats / 69 / 49 / 71%
Fins / 64 / 45 / 70.3%
NYJ / 62 / 38 / 61.3%
Looking at those numbers tells me that the Pats are holding their own in those years and are well ahead of the Jete (no surprise) who've been drafting at or near the top while the Pats have been at the bottom each year.

 

[1960Pats]

Good post 1960, I’d also add there’s a premium on drafting more players. Volume drafting, even later picks, means more players in camp, fewer UDFA’s that need to be negotiated with. Considering many UDFA’s are getting paid now more than some late round draft picks this is also a cost controlling device. These people hate facts though, so expect some emotional blowback with little to no substance.

I've always made the claim that more picks mean more hits. Law of averages should work out that way and it looks like it has. That's why I used %'s and not totals to see what went on.

I've always been a proponent of late round picks because they give a team the first chance at a player. Troy Brown was the 198th player taken when he was drafted and Brady was even later.