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Why the hell did we not try harder to keep TB12?

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Wozzy

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Agreed there, hopefully we don't draft anymore RB's in the first round.
Or maybe every year without a championship not say "BB has lost his fastball" or "sucks."

Also if BB traded out of the first round you negatives would complain about that.

If it were raining money from the sky you'd be complaining the quarters were hitting you on the head.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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Or maybe every year without a championship not say "BB has lost his fastball" or "sucks."

Also if BB traded out of the first round you negatives would complain about that.

If it were raining money from the sky you'd be complaining the quarters were hitting you on the head.
Very few posters are like that and I'm certainly not one of them. Again it's not that hard. We both have a post history.
 

Nunchucks

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The simple fact is that poor drafts required more cap money spent, which resulted in cap hell in 2020 and an insufficient level of talent. That said, the 2020 team would have been much more competitive with Brady. Sadly, Bill didn't do enough to keep Brady around and Brady was frustrated with all of it.

It is what it is...let's look to the future and hope for the best.
 

amfootball

In the Starting Line-Up
The simple fact is that poor drafts required more cap money spent, which resulted in cap hell in 2020 and an insufficient level of talent. That said, the 2020 team would have been much more competitive with Brady. Sadly, Bill didn't do enough to keep Brady around and Brady was frustrated with all of it.

It is what it is...let's look to the future and hope for the best.
Exactly. It was not because we "went all in" from 2014-2019. Our team building approach did not change during that stretch. The difference was all the draft pick whiffs. We became top heavy with the biggest contracts going to aging vets and no youth behind them. Do you know how ridiculous it is that Bill STILL has not replaced AH, Gronk or Edelman? And that is just the offensive side.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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The straw men are constantly coming for him.
I was laughing at his post, the last few pages. It's been a nice bit of comic relief but I'll have none of the Zbell slander. Former OL'm in college, maybe LSU? It was a long time ago but he always had insight about that program. Extremely smart and nice. He'd take the time out to explain anything. Great poster. Any forum would be lucky to have him.

And yea, who really thinks Bill sux? He belongs on football Mt Rushmore but isn't above some criticism.
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I was laughing at his post, the last few pages. It's been a nice bit of comic relief but I'll have none of the Zbell slander. Former OL'm in college, maybe LSU? It was a long time ago but he always had insight about that program. Extremely smart and nice. He'd take the time out to explain anything. Great poster. Any forum would be lucky to have him.

And yea, who really thinks Bill sux? He belongs on football Mt Rushmore but isn't above some criticism.
Bill has become infallible to some and they will twist themselves into pretzels while insulting anyone who disagrees with them. I love this board and there are some great posters here. Some really know the X's and O's, some the full history of the team, and some (like you) have in depth draft knowledge but in the end of the day we are all rooting for the same team and I think sometimes that gets forgotten.
 

Wozzy

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
The simple fact is that poor drafts required more cap money spent, which resulted in cap hell in 2020 and an insufficient level of talent. That said, the 2020 team would have been much more competitive with Brady. Sadly, Bill didn't do enough to keep Brady around and Brady was frustrated with all of it.

It is what it is...let's look to the future and hope for the best.
Show me the time BB or any GM in history hit on 100% or even 50% of draft picks consistently and this will make sense. Go back to 2001-2004 when he was supposedly “good at drafting” and show me these amazing draft classes. The average NFL career lasts three years, the draft is a crapshoot... always has been, always will be. Getting 2-4 players from a draft class is a good haul. This golden age of Patriots drafting never existed, so this theory is whack.
 
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1960Pats

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in my mind there is a difference between liking (being a fan of) and respect. It would not surprise me in the least if Tom and Bill didn’t particularly like each other they are very different personalities with 30 years of age between them. I can see Bill shaking his head at all the goofy new age **** Tom is into, and Tom being like left alone on a boat? Blaaaah.

Personal example that immediately sprang to mind, I used to work night shift at a commercial print shop. There were two supervisors A team and B team that could not have been more different. A team was a people person, he was laid back, easy going, and a good guy I would have very happily gone out and got a beer with him. He was also an incompetent boob with no standards. There would be hours at a time I wouldn’t see him on the floor. Guys loved him though because certain guys could get away with murder and there was no pressure on his shifts. B team was a demanding, harsh, pain in the ass who made it so my head was on a constant swivle making sure I knew where he was and what he was doing. Clearly he had been promoted for skill though because anytime a machine went down he was right there making sure it got back up and running. He was fair treating everyone pretty crappy, but the one thing I remember most about him is one time i was unfairly in trouble with the higher ups he went to bat for me. I don’t think team A guy would have.

So I like team A guy but I respect team B guy and given the choice I would want to work for B 11/10 times cuz I want a guy that makes my job easier and has my back.
Of course all we can do is theorize about their relationship, but my take is that they're both bright enough to know that they benefitted from each other and their big football brains enjoyed each other's company. They also both benefitted from Bill's authoritative style and Tom's respect for authority, making them a match made in heaven.

Using your A vs B analogy, in my last years working we went from an A to a B, but the B didn't get the same respect as yours. In our case the A was easier but got more respect because he was even handed. B was a hard-ass but generally got mocked and made the work more difficult with his micro-management. He used to overuse the word simplistic and everyone would smile.

One of the funnier things that came up after B took over for A was when we were having a seminar and the instructor asked two questions. One was what makes a good manager and the other was what makes a bad manager. The first question didn't get much of a response but when he asked what makes a bad manager everyone in our department raised their hands with plenty of examples.
 

1960Pats

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Show me the time BB or any GM in history hit on 100 or even 50% of draft picks consistently and this will make sense. Go back to 2001-2004 when he was supposedly “good at drafting” and show me these amazing draft classes. The average NFL career lasts three years, the draft is a crapshoot... always has been, always will be. Getting 2-4 players from a draft class is a good haul. This golden age of Patriots drafting never existed, so this theory is whack.
I don't follow college ball so the draft isn't as exciting to me. But after hearing all of the criticism of BB I decided to take a closer look at the draft. I stuck to the AFCE because I didn't feel like putting in that much time.

These are the numbers of the AFCE draft since BB has been here. I used %'s because the Pats drafted more players than everyone else;

Pats
Players Drafted - 187
Still on the team - 34 (18.2%)
On other teams - 31 (16.6%)
Out of football - 121 (64.7%)

Miami
Players drafted - 161
Still on the team - 27 (16.8%)
On other teams - 27 (16.8%)
Out of football - 107 (66.5%%)

NYJ
Players drafted - 147
Still on the team - 23 (15.6%)
On other teams - 18 (12.2%)
Out of football - 106 (72.1%)

Bills
Players drafted - 168
Still on the team - 24 (14.3%)
On other teams - 22 (13.1%)
Out of football - 122 (72.6%)

Looking at those numbers shows me that the talk about the Pats terrible drafts is inaccurate. At first glance it doesn't support the idea that the Pats had any worse of a run from 2013 on as has been suggested. The Pats also have more players still playing from earlier drafts than the others. When I have some more time and energy I'll look a little closer to the years.
 

1960Pats

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Of course it helped the team. No question.

It's the term "sacrificed" that is crap.
I get the same feeling when I see the "needed more time to spend with the family" nonsense. NYFL players get to spend a heck of a lot more time with their families than most working stiffs.
 

ivanvamp

In the Starting Line-Up
I don't follow college ball so the draft isn't as exciting to me. But after hearing all of the criticism of BB I decided to take a closer look at the draft. I stuck to the AFCE because I didn't feel like putting in that much time.

These are the numbers of the AFCE draft since BB has been here. I used %'s because the Pats drafted more players than everyone else;

Pats
Players Drafted - 187
Still on the team - 34 (18.2%)
On other teams - 31 (16.6%)
Out of football - 121 (64.7%)

Miami
Players drafted - 161
Still on the team - 27 (16.8%)
On other teams - 27 (16.8%)
Out of football - 107 (66.5%%)

NYJ
Players drafted - 147
Still on the team - 23 (15.6%)
On other teams - 18 (12.2%)
Out of football - 106 (72.1%)

Bills
Players drafted - 168
Still on the team - 24 (14.3%)
On other teams - 22 (13.1%)
Out of football - 122 (72.6%)

Looking at those numbers shows me that the talk about the Pats terrible drafts is inaccurate. At first glance it doesn't support the idea that the Pats had any worse of a run from 2013 on as has been suggested. The Pats also have more players still playing from earlier drafts than the others. When I have some more time and energy I'll look a little closer to the years.

Now do the same thing but figure out the average draft slot for each team, and the expected careers of players based on those draft slots and you will find that the Pats' drafts have been MUCH better than these other teams.
 

Wozzy

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
I don't follow college ball so the draft isn't as exciting to me. But after hearing all of the criticism of BB I decided to take a closer look at the draft. I stuck to the AFCE because I didn't feel like putting in that much time.

These are the numbers of the AFCE draft since BB has been here. I used %'s because the Pats drafted more players than everyone else;

Pats
Players Drafted - 187
Still on the team - 34 (18.2%)
On other teams - 31 (16.6%)
Out of football - 121 (64.7%)

Miami
Players drafted - 161
Still on the team - 27 (16.8%)
On other teams - 27 (16.8%)
Out of football - 107 (66.5%%)

NYJ
Players drafted - 147
Still on the team - 23 (15.6%)
On other teams - 18 (12.2%)
Out of football - 106 (72.1%)

Bills
Players drafted - 168
Still on the team - 24 (14.3%)
On other teams - 22 (13.1%)
Out of football - 122 (72.6%)

Looking at those numbers shows me that the talk about the Pats terrible drafts is inaccurate. At first glance it doesn't support the idea that the Pats had any worse of a run from 2013 on as has been suggested. The Pats also have more players still playing from earlier drafts than the others. When I have some more time and energy I'll look a little closer to the years.
Good post 1960, I’d also add there’s a premium on drafting more players. Volume drafting, even later picks, means more players in camp, fewer UDFA’s that need to be negotiated with. Considering many UDFA’s are getting paid now more than some late round draft picks this is also a cost controlling device. These people hate facts though, so expect some emotional blowback with little to no substance.
 

Nunchucks

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Show me the time BB or any GM in history hit on 100 or even 50% of draft picks consistently and this will make sense. Go back to 2001-2004 when he was supposedly “good at drafting” and show me these amazing draft classes. The average NFL career lasts three years, the draft is a crapshoot... always has been, always will be. Getting 2-4 players from a draft class is a good haul. This golden age of Patriots drafting never existed, so this theory is whack.
Well, the patriots had a pretty rough go at it with some terrible picks. Cyrus Jones, Jordan Richard's, Duke Dawson, Rivers, Gonzales, etc. Patriots never really had young talent to fill in the gaps. Patriots also had some phenomenal FA pick ups and trades in the past and haven't had as much lately.

I am just explaining why the team talent level sucks ATM.
 

NG Pats Fan

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Bill has become infallible to some and they will twist themselves into pretzels while insulting anyone who disagrees with them. I love this board and there are some great posters here. Some really know the X's and O's, some the full history of the team, and some (like you) have in depth draft knowledge but in the end of the day we are all rooting for the same team and I think sometimes that gets forgotten.

bb could continúe drafting awful the next 5 years and people here would still bring up him drafting Brady 25 years earlier as “proof” he is still great at drafting
 

NG Pats Fan

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Well, the patriots had a pretty rough go at it with some terrible picks. Cyrus Jones, Jordan Richard's, Duke Dawson, Rivers, Gonzales, etc. Patriots never really had young talent to fill in the gaps. Patriots also had some phenomenal FA pick ups and trades in the past and haven't had as much lately.

I am just explaining why the team talent level sucks ATM.
Yup

1st selections since 2013

2014 Dominque Easley
2015 Malcolm Brown
2016 Cyrus Jones
2017 Derek Rivers
2018 Isiah Wynn
Sony Michel
2019 NKeal Harry
2020 Kyle Duggar

that is awful. Zero high level players right there
 

Nunchucks

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Yup

1st selections since 2013

2014 Dominque Easley
2015 Malcolm Brown
2016 Cyrus Jones
2017 Derek Rivers
2018 Isiah Wynn
Sony Michel
2019 NKeal Harry
2020 Kyle Duggar

that is awful. Zero high level players right there
I don't think it is fair to lump 1st round picks with 3rd rounds picks - I don't mind the Easley pick at all, blue chip talent that fell due to injuries, I am fine with Brown, he was a solid starter - both Wynn and Michel are fine - Harry was supposedly the top receiver on the board and Duggar looks like he will be good. I have a problem with Cyrus Jones from that list.
 

bresna

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I don't think it is fair to lump 1st round picks with 3rd rounds picks - I don't mind the Easley pick at all, blue chip talent that fell due to injuries, I am fine with Brown, he was a solid starter - both Wynn and Michel are fine - Harry was supposedly the top receiver on the board and Duggar looks like he will be good. I have a problem with Cyrus Jones from that list.

From this list, Cyrus Jones is the only one I had a problem with too. The others looked like great picks at the time. I remember how so many teams were throwing stuff around their draft rooms when the Patriots got Easley. I thought they got a steal and I wasn't alone.

One of my most disappointing draft picks was Chad Jackson. I remember that year ESPN had this pre-draft competition and Jackson was a monster. So was Stephen Gostkowski. And then the Patriots went and drafted both of them. I was pretty psyched. Chad bombed.
 

JarOfMayo51

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
so we used a first round pick on a “complimentary “ player over offensive players who have 10 year all pro potential, some of them hall of fame potential?

Yea basically.. he may not have lived up to his draft position, but that doesn't mean he's completely worthless. He is still a valuable piece of the offense that we will need to be a 2 headed tandem with Harris

Would Chubb have been better? Sure, in hindsight that is fairly obvious, but no one really questioned the pick at the time and he played really well his rookie year to help us win a SB. He played well this year too in the 2nd half of the season, so if he can stay healthy and keep producing like that, he will still help us and provide value

The Michel picks arent the ones that naw at me, its the picks like Harry that really grate me
 

crawhammer

On the Game Day Roster
Saying it was all about Brady and dismissing any player who was pivotal to winning those rings started and ended the conversation.
It would be a lot easier debating with you if you would just stop already with the straw man fallacies.

I never said "it was all about Brady."
I never said "no other player was pivotal to winning those rings."

The Patriots won those Super Bowl titles AS A TEAM. Many different players made pivotal contributions throughout the course of the dynasty. Coaches made pivotal contributions throughout the course of the dynasty. However, Brady made the most pivotal contributions, not all, but the most. If I'm ranking the most important contributors throughout the entire course of the dynasty then Brady is at the top of the list. However, the list doesn't end there. Other contributors in descending order would follow. Do you understand?

You don't want to talk about the facts, the math involved in them kicking the salary cap can down the road
I provided a detailed reply about the cap. Go back and read it if you want. Or not. But it's there so don't say I've ignored the cap because I have addressed it already.

BB drafted and taught Brady. One can hardly credit the student for the teachers success... except you of course.
The Organization drafted Brady, at 199, so let's not act like bb knew what he was doing there. Thereafter, how would you know what bb did or did not "teach" Brady? What about the different quarterback coaches and offensive coordinators that Brady has worked with? There is no scenario where bb is exclusively teaching Brady everything he knows. Brady wasn't an empty slate by the time he was drafted into the NFL either. So your Mr. Miyagi and Daniel-son analogy doesn't work.

Regarding your "except you" comment, I already pointed out that when asked who's more important to the dynasty?... 70% say Brady over Belichick. So I'm hardly the exception.

And you think Brees and Rogers are "less than" than Brady and their record is the reason why... of course it is. Wins and losses are a TEAM record, not a QB record.
So when Belichick is taking a victory lap over passing Don Shula for the most wins by an NFL head coach, you'll say the same thing? We'll find out after bb strings enough losing records together to surpass Shula.

The fact of the matter is, wins and losses are tracked for starting quarterbacks. Especially when it comes to Super Bowls. When Brady was sitting on 3 rings for a decade, all you heard from Montana fans was Montana has more rings than Brady... once Brady blew past him that debate was over for good.

BB would have won with Bree or Rogers all the same... give us a break.
Brady would have 700 touchdowns and 10 rings if he had played with Sean Payton in New Orleans. (jk)

Brees is not even in the conservation as the greatest ever despite the stats. Why? Because HE wasn't good enough when it counted most. Same with your bo Rodgers. Let's see if he doesn't suck again in a conference championship game this weekend. Rodgers loses this game, I don't care if it's 60-59, he'll be out of the conversation for good too.

BB put a top O-Line, Defense and Special Teams around Brady. That's why he has so many rings.
Yeah right, Matthew Slater is the real reason why Brady has 6 rings. I'll generously give Vinatieri a small piece of the credit pie for the FG's.

Who are these HOF offensive linemen Brady played with? I'll dial it back a little, all-pros? Pro-bowlers? It's a very short list. I know Mankins was one until bb shipped his ass out of town.

I can tell you this for sure... Brady was surrounded by way fewer pro-bowlers than Montana or Manning.

If Nick Foles and Joe Flacco can do it, if they have more than Marino and as many as Brees or Rogers, if Eli has more than any of them... it's not as important a position as you make it out to be.
Yes, it's THAT important.

You realize Flacco was phenomenal in that Super Bowl winning postseason? The dude had 11 TD's and 0 INT's. HE was the main reason why the Ravens won that postseason.

Eli Manning... in the two Super Bowl runs he combined for an 8-0 record, 15 TD's and 2 INT's.
Otherwise he was 0-4 with 3 TD's and 7 INT's.
When Eli played like an elite QB, they won.
When Eli played like a bum, they lost.

Do we have to talk about Foles? Butler on the sideline. bb gifted that one to Philly.
 

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