Why the hell did we not try harder to keep TB12?

[Pape]

Uh, Thuney is not the only R guard in the league.

he plays on the left side of the line

 

[Pape]

Have you seen the Tampa thread? There are people saying that if Brady doesn't make it to the super bowl this season is a failure. Have you seen that buffoon Tommybrady12's posts? You would think we had JP Losman for 20 years. There are plenty of people bashing Bill but there are also plenty of people bashing Brady. Bill deserves credit but by the end of the run Brady was overcoming Bill's shortcomings as a GM.

nope i ignore that sihtshow... nothing good will ever come out of that thread...

but saying a player needs to make it to the super bowl, that kinda infers a high level of success, doesn't it? Compare that to the criticism BB has taken here ... not even remotely in the same class

 

[203Pat]

nope i ignore that sihtshow... nothing good will ever come out of that thread...

but saying a player needs to make it to the super bowl, that kinda infers a high level of success, doesn't it? Compare that to the criticism BB has taken here ... not even remotely in the same class

People are calling it a failure if Brady doesn't play in a super bowl while at the same time letting Bill off the hook for putting together a terrible team and going 7-9.

 

[Boomer B]

The problem some here have is they can’t comprehend that these 3 statements can all be true:

1) Bill is the best coach ever
2) from 2000 - 2014 Bill was overall among the very best at drafting (some off years but some great drafts)
3) since 2014 Bill hasn’t drafted well and our decline in the last few years is due to those players drafted in those years did not adequately replace the older players

It’s a forum where we discuss the team. The good and bad. No one I’d rather have then Bill but it’s ok to discuss his more recent short comings.

 

[Nikolai]

1. The Pats had about fifty bucks of cap space.

2. The Pats did try to get Brady weapons. They signed Antonio Brown. They drafted a WR in the first round. They traded for Sanu ( Brady's choice).

3. They went to four of the last six Super Bowls and won three.

4. Because of cap space management, free agent signings, coaching and etc etc... the Pats have had a unprecedented twenty year run resulting in 13 AFCCG appearances, 9 Super Bowl appearances and Six wins.

5. Belichick and Brady were together Six years longer than the next successful tandem. Six years. They got tired of each other?

6. For whatever reason, and I don't care what the reason was, their relationship soured. They got divorced.

7. The cap space was a factor. Did BB have some poor drafts? Yes. But did he try to surround Brady with weapons? Yes he did.

Not aiming this at the OP but WTF.

What a bunch of whiny sniveling twits.

If you're *****ing and are.....

Over 40 - phuck off. You've never had a better twenty year ride in your life. And half of you probably got married and divorced during the ride.

30 - 40 - phuck off. You're too young to realize that you had the best ride of your life. And half of you are probably filing for divorce after ten years of marriage.

20-30. -. Phuck off. You were born into a dynasty and was fed great moment after great moment with the proverbial golden spoon. What a bunch of spoiled pink hats.

10-20. - There's still hope for you. Slap your pink hat dad a couple of times for me. Will you?

BB built a playoff team in Cleveland. He built the Patriots into a Dynasty and he'll build them up again. No doubt in my mind.

I truly don't understand this "who was more valuable" bull shyt because the answer is they both supplied us an incredible twenty year run.

I love both Brady and BB. I'm enjoying watching Brady do his thing down in Tampa and I'm enjoying watching BB rebuilding the Pats.

Will he rebuild the Pats to what they were over the last twenty years? No. It's impossible. The BB/TB dynamic has only happened once in NFL history. It was special. Will BB rebuild the Pats into playoff contenders? Absolutely.

Pretty much stopped reading this thread after this post. This is the definitive post on the subject. Out****ingstanding

 

[Ivan]

I think both Brady and Gronk just didn’t want to play for Belichick any more. He’s the greatest coach in football history but he’s also an unrelenting hard ass, and after playing so long for him Brady wanted some love, and he wanted more enjoyment out of playing football, and that simply was not going to happen in New England. I also think Belichick has wanted to move to a more athletic QB, and wants to rebuild to Championship level with his new QB before hanging them up, so he was fine with moving on.

 

[SteveBsFan]

I think both Brady and Gronk just didn’t want to play for Belichick any more. He’s the greatest coach in football history but he’s also an unrelenting hard ass, and after playing so long for him Brady wanted some love, and he wanted more enjoyment out of playing football, and that simply was not going to happen in New England. I also think Belichick has wanted to move to a more athletic QB, and wants to rebuild to Championship level with his new QB before hanging them up, so he was fine with moving on.

Yea in the end it just comes down to Brady generally being done with BB and vice versa.

As a team builder, it's hard to plan for the future when your qb is an anomaly. In a normal football world, Brady would have retired and Jimmy taken over. But Brady kept playing and playing well.

Bill knows Brady is playing on borrowed time and is tired of planning around that. It's like planning your future around winning blackjack forever because you had an abnormally good stretch.

For a team with 9 SB appearances in 20 years, Bill should have the flexibility to plan for the future without fans getting butthurt and crying. But this is Boston. Same group that cries because the Sox didn't spend $365m on Betts.

 

[crawhammer]

So here we go... the whole Brady vs Belichick debate is again the culmination of every topic. Because really, what's more important? But make no mistake the pro-Belichick side is PMing the Mods about alleged trolling and begging for this thread to be shutdown asap. Because they're losing the argument in an extremely lopsided fashion. We all know, had Brady lost to New Orleans this weekend, the In Bill We Trust crowd would be going on about how Brady was 1-6 against teams with a winning record, the WFT win meant nothing, and you see Brady couldn't win a meaningful game without Belichick as his head coach.

But the facts are the facts. Brady in his very first season without Belichick has accomplished what Belichick couldn't do in 8 opportunities... win more than 1 playoff game. Think about this, in 8 full seasons, Belichick managed one playoff birth as a wild card team and won 1 game. Brady in one season has 2 playoff wins and possibly still counting. Brady doesn't need Belichick to be successful. Belichick has only been successful with Brady. These are facts.

It's also a fact that Brady is currently playing for another team because 1) Belichick created animosity between the two (see SB 51, see incentive laden contract, see mistreatment of personal trainer, see FA departures), 2) Belichick crippled the roster with exceptionally poor drafts and FA decisions and 3) most importantly, Belichick completely miscalculated Brady's elite window (by at least 3 years!).

So now the Patriots are not good, have no quarterback, and find themselves in a division with at least one other team that is going to be very good for many seasons (mainly because they now have the elite quarterback). Compounding matters, our elite quarterback is fully invested elsewhere, he's transformed the entire culture of his new franchise, and he's leading them on a deep playoff run that seemed improbable as recently as November. But Brady did what he usually does... rise to the heights required of the situation to make it successful.

When you’re wrong you’re wrong, it has nothing to do with “owing Bill.” You and the rest of the negative nancy’s are blaming Bill for providing 6 rings, 3 in the last dynastic run... because you expect more. Entitlement is the word...

Blind-faith is the word. For you. IBWT doesn't actually mean anything, it's not an argument, it's an empty acronym. His best player grew not to trust him and for very good reasons. No one's "blaming" Bill for 6 rings, we're applying more credit to Brady, and blaming Bill for prematurely ending the run. And costing the team the another ring in SB 51. So yes, I expected more, because I should. Brady, who also expected more, is proving that beyond any doubt right now.

 

[PatsDeb]

He wanted to stay if they would give him a two-year deal two years ago and get him some weapons. BB stuck to his stupid "every player is treated the same" mantra and the rest is history. He's still going strong and we are in the dumpster, at least for a while. It broke my heart to see him go and I was mad at all the parties involved that they couldn't make it work. But of course, just like in real life, even when someone breaks your heart you find that you still love them after the dust settles. So, after initially declaring I could not or would not watch Brady in another uniform, I have done so and I am rooting for him to go all the way. And, even though I was mad at the Pats and BB I of course watched every game from start to finish and will do so next year. I am hoping they find the next Brady in the draft (no more stop-gaps like Cam, please) and I will renew my season tickets (thought about not doing so as I have had some serious health challenges these past few months and all my kids [i.e. my game partners] will probably be away at college or are grown and gone from their Pats mania), if only to be able to attend the Pats vs. Tampa game next season.

 

[fightingirish595]

We didn’t have enough resources to build around him and keep him

 

[NG Pats Fan]

But make no mistake the pro-Belichick side is PMing the Mods about alleged trolling and begging for this thread to be shutdown asap. Because they're losing the argument in an extremely lopsided fashion

You're Right. Unfortunately, some of the Mods here are bias and extreme belichick apologists themselves. Maybe not on the cult level of DaBruins and Luuked, whom started a group text full of Belichick worshippers. However, it's there. Belichick walks on water here. careful what you say.

 

[Wozzy]

So here we go... the whole Brady vs Belichick debate is again the culmination of every topic. Because really, what's more important? But make no mistake the pro-Belichick side is PMing the Mods about alleged trolling and begging for this thread to be shutdown asap. Because they're losing the argument in an extremely lopsided fashion. We all know, had Brady lost to New Orleans this weekend, the In Bill We Trust crowd would be going on about how Brady was 1-6 against teams with a winning record, the WFT win meant nothing, and you see Brady couldn't win a meaningful game without Belichick as his head coach.

But the facts are the facts. Brady in his very first season without Belichick has accomplished what Belichick couldn't do in 8 opportunities... win more than 1 playoff game. Think about this, in 8 full seasons, Belichick managed one playoff birth as a wild card team and won 1 game. Brady in one season has 2 playoff wins and possibly still counting. Brady doesn't need Belichick to be successful. Belichick has only been successful with Brady. These are facts.

It's also a fact that Brady is currently playing for another team because 1) Belichick created animosity between the two (see SB 51, see incentive laden contract, see mistreatment of personal trainer, see FA departures), 2) Belichick crippled the roster with exceptionally poor drafts and FA decisions and 3) most importantly, Belichick completely miscalculated Brady's elite window (by at least 3 years!).

So now the Patriots are not good, have no quarterback, and find themselves in a division with at least one other team that is going to be very good for many seasons (mainly because they now have the elite quarterback). Compounding matters, our elite quarterback is fully invested elsewhere, he's transformed the entire culture of his new franchise, and he's leading them on a deep playoff run that seemed improbable as recently as November. But Brady did what he usually does... rise to the heights required of the situation to make it successful.


Blind-faith is the word. For you. IBWT doesn't actually mean anything, it's not an argument, it's an empty acronym. His best player grew not to trust him and for very good reasons. No one's "blaming" Bill for 6 rings, we're applying more credit to Brady, and blaming Bill for prematurely ending the run. And costing the team the another ring in SB 51. So yes, I expected more, because I should. Brady, who also expected more, is proving that beyond any doubt right now.

So far the "pro-Belichick" crowd is owning this conversation, at least until someone can refute the math... they can't. Just FYI I'm pro Patriots, I like both Bill and Tom.

Brady going to a handpicked superteam was going to be successful, that's why they were favored in Vegas before the season began, it's why I chose Tampa and KC to play in the Super Bowl before the season began and said Tom would probably lead the NFL in passing. It was never a lack of faith in Brady, not by us, not by BB... it was about cap space and the future.

Your soap operatic narrative is tired, the day Brady told Kraft he was leaving they called Bill and the three had a healthy cry together. The only animus as far as I can tell if by you jokers. Work any place for twenty years with the same demanding boss and tell me how you feel, it could be the greatest job in the world. I'm sure Bill sat Tom down and told him the financial realities the Patriots were facing last offseason and it colored his decision. If BB wanted to be a **** he could have franchise tagged Brady instead of granting him a release. They could have done to Tom what Detroit did to Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson, holding them hostage and not allowing them to go play for a contender in their few remaining years... forcing Tom to either retire or hold out. They did right by the player, they did right by the franchise.

BB drafted Tom Brady.

You applying more credit to Brady is misguided fangasms, it's cheerleading.

Tampa has a window, don't come crawling back after the window has closed... we don't need you.

 

[denverpatsfan]

So just like everything else in this country it's "my way or the highway"? The truth often is somewhere inbetween.

Except SB 51...

 

[Wozzy]

So just like everything else in this country it's "my way or the highway"? The truth often is somewhere inbetween.

Except SB 51...

The truth requires proof. So far the doom & gloom crowd have only provided emotions and "because I say so" logic.

Bill literally told us all the situation in an interview with Charlie Weis on Sirius Radio.

If you don't believe Bill (ask why first of all?), or you think he's lying or making excuses... the proof is in the math.

All one needs is a rudimentary understanding of the salary cap.

 

[luuked]

It’s a Pats forum. Are we only supposed to discuss everything good that happened in the past? I think it’s worthwhile to discuss where we are and how we got here.

That is not the point though. You are implying that the front office somehow screwed up drafting when my POV is that it was mostly a regression to the mean which historically is a very normal thing. All teams -- including the Ravens, Seahawks or Saints -- have periods of time where picks work out and times where they don't. No matter where they are picked, there is nobody out there who is a draft genius who consistently beats the uncertainty over longer periods of time.

Point being I don't think you can have a actual balanced discussion about anything if you don't compare our outcome to the average of the league over a longer period of time. And for one reason or the other that vital context -- and others like expected value of picks given draft position -- is usually missing in threads like this.

 

[Pape]

People are calling it a failure if Brady doesn't play in a super bowl while at the same time letting Bill off the hook for putting together a terrible team and going 7-9.

no one has let BB off the hook for going 7-9... quite the opposite. to say otherwise is not being honest

 

[Toofy]

Putting Myself in Bills shoes.. how pissed off he would be for drafting Harry and being questioned on the draft choices.. Harry was probably the nail in the coffin...

If only Harry had blossomed at least we have one emergent star on offensive line to build off on and now bill needs to again think whether he goes offense or defense...

Harry could have elevated the entire offense and the qb and by not even waking up has made the entire offense go into slumber... I really doubt if Bill will draft a offensive wr in first round...

 

[Boomer B]

That is not the point though. You are implying that the front office somehow screwed up drafting when my POV is that it was mostly a regression to the mean which historically is a very normal thing. All teams -- including the Ravens, Seahawks or Saints -- have periods of time where picks work out and times where they don't. No matter where they are picked, there is nobody out there who is a draft genius who consistently beats the uncertainty over longer periods of time.

Point being I don't think you can have a actual balanced discussion about anything if you don't compare our outcome to the average of the league over a longer period of time. And for one reason or the other that vital context -- and others like expected value of picks given draft position -- is usually missing in threads like this.

Fair point, but I think the draft success is something we just disagree on. I agree no one knocks it out of the park every year, that’s just not realistic, but we have a had a pretty long lull in finding above average players via the draft, especially in the higher rounds. We had 1 or 2 year lulls before but then Bill would come back and smoke a few out of the park.

Here’s our drafts, aside from a few lineman who are the upper tier players in the last 5 years? This draft list is the reason we are now a middle of the pack football team.

New England Patriots All-Time Draft History | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the complete draft history of New England Patriots starting from 1936 to present including year by year draft picks on Pro-Football-Reference.com

www.pro-football-reference.com

 

[luuked]

Fair point, but I think the draft success is something we just disagree on. I agree no one knocks it out of the park every year, that’s just not realistic, but we have a had a pretty long lull in finding above average players via the draft, especially in the higher rounds. We had 1 or 2 year lulls before but then Bill would come back and smoke a few out of the park.

Here’s our drafts, aside from a few lineman who are the upper tier players in the last 5 years? This draft list is the reason we are now a middle of the pack football team.

New England Patriots All-Time Draft History | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the complete draft history of New England Patriots starting from 1936 to present including year by year draft picks on Pro-Football-Reference.com

www.pro-football-reference.com

I'd like to point to the analysis someone at FO did for draft efficiency:

NFL Drafting Efficiency, 2010-2019

Guest columnist Benjamin Ellinger breaks down every draft pick in the past 10 years. Did Cleveland's tanking policy pay off? Which teams had the best results in the draft, and which wasted their picks? And is there anything meaningful in this data, or is there really some skill involved? The...

www.footballoutsiders.com

Where we are #8 (a rounding error away from being #5 btw) over the last 10 years and somewhere league average in the last 5 years in terms of return vs. capital. Argue with their approach as much as you want but at least it is quantitative and gives you an idea what the expected (i.e. average) return should be.

Yeah, the last couple of drafts have been thin on return for various reasons and should be improved upon. But we are far away from "awful since 2014".

 

[XLIX]

No, 7 - 9 is a primo spot for trading down on draft day.

Whew! Before this post I thought you were being serious! Thank you for showing us all you’re just trolling.