Who should have the Patriots taken at 48 instead of Wilson

[Off The Grid]

A 3-4 DE was one of our biggest needs predraft, so even though PatChick made a good point, I would have taken Still or Reyes (whomever they liked best) at 48 Then taken Johnson at 62 and gone Golfing.

Psst!!

The "34" has plummeted to the bottom of the Depth Chart, my friend!!

 

[Off The Grid]

In all this love for Lavonte David, just where would he have played for them? He is woefully undersized for their LB corps, and too slow for their Safety needs.

Could he have replaced Tracy White? Sure but why? White isn't over the hill and you don't spend a second rounder on a ST player who isn't even a gunner candidate.

Yeah I know Larry Izzo played [actually sat], for years. But the Pats did not spend a second on him either. Matt Slater in the Fifth, was criticized as too high a choice for a Pro bowl Gunner and ST maven. Second Round? Never!!!!:snob:

You need to stand closer to the Tape, my friend.

There was no other player in the entire Draft Class like LaVonte David.

245.

425.

335.

433.

343.

Honestly, there is NO alignment in which he wouldn't've been a FORCE.

 

[bbell31]

In all this love for Lavonte David, just where would he have played for them? He is woefully undersized for their LB corps, and too slow for their Safety needs.

Could he have replaced Tracy White? Sure but why? White isn't over the hill and you don't spend a second rounder on a ST player who isn't even a gunner candidate.

Yeah I know Larry Izzo played [actually sat], for years. But the Pats did not spend a second on him either. Matt Slater in the Fifth, was criticized as too high a choice for a Pro bowl Gunner and ST maven. Second Round? Never!!!!:snob:

I agree completely, lavonte David made zero sense for us at that pick. A top db with versatility great hips/man cov skills is what I was lookin 4 here

 

[everlong]

I hope this kid becomes the second coming of Rodney so I can bump all 137 of the threds covering this topic...........although Rodney in today's game might put a zero behind the originals fine numbers never mind the games suspended.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I agree completely, lavonte David made zero sense for us at that pick. A top db with versatility great hips/man cov skills is what I was lookin 4 here

Too bad one wasn't available.

 

[bbell31]

Too bad one wasn't available.

Jamell Fleming.

 

[mayoclinic]

Jamell Fleming.

As with Trumaine Johnson, I think a lot of people would have been fine with the Pats picking Fleming in the 2nd round, even as high as 48. Fleming does have more fluidity and man coverage experience than Wilson. However, he also had a slighter frame, a much less physical style of play, lack of actual safety experience, and character and academic issues. Fleming wasn't on NE Patriots' Draft's pre-draft contact list, so I assume that the Pats saw enough to evaluate him out without a further look, and they chose to pass. Again, you're basically questioning the personnel evaluation process of a FO who have consistently been among the best at identifying personnel who fit their scheme and their team. Everyone makes mistakes, but I don't think that any of us is smarter than the FO. I had Trumaine Johnson and Brandon Hardin as my top 2 CB/FS hybrids, and the Pats passed on both. That doesn't make Wilson a bad pick.

 

[bbell31]

I didn't question sh-t, I stated who I would have taken and fleming is a much better pick than trumaine Johnson. Johnson's hips r to tight. I agree on the cons with Fleming but I think he could play safety if needed with good results as I feel the same with devin and Arrington

 

[IcyPatriot]

I was thinking that Peter Konz would have been solid choice. Dominant centers are hard to find and he could also play guard. I guess Koppen must be doing well...

what does he think?

 

[patchick]

I agree on the cons with Fleming but I think he could play safety if needed with good results as I feel the same with devin and Arrington

It's an interesting thing about Arrington -- he seems to play bigger than he is, which must be why his name gets bandied about in the safety talk. But at the end of the day, Kyle Arrington is the size of Ellis Hobbs.

 

[bbell31]

It's an interesting thing about Arrington -- he seems to play bigger than he is, which must be why his name gets bandied about in the safety talk. But at the end of the day, Kyle Arrington is the size of Ellis Hobbs.

Yup and at the end of the day he could b a solid safety.

 

[DaBruinz]

Lavonte David.

I'm fine with the Wilson pick for now until I see how he plays. But I thought David was one of the best defensive playmakers in the draft.

Looking at the Tavon Wilson pick in a vacuum is silly. You have to take into consideration what the Pats had already added in Jones and Hightower. Jones is an OLB in the Pats 3-4 and Hightower is an ILB in the 3-4 and MAYBE a pass rusher in the sub Packages.. But he's also 6'2 1/4.

Lavonte David is 6'0 1/2. He's only 233 lbs. David's ONLY position for the Pats would have been ILB in sub-packages. Yes, David has a very good vertical and strong legs and is an excellent tackler, but using a 2nd round pick on a guy who really doesn't fit the Pats 4-3 system doesn't make any sense.

As I mentioned in another thread, David is perfect for the Tampa-2. And that's exactly where he went. He should be excellent there, provided the rest of the team doesn't suck..

But, once the Pats added Hightower, there was no way David was going to be drafted. And, in all reality, I doubt that David had a high ranking for the Pats because of his height and weight and his system limitation.

 

[DaBruinz]

What Bill should've done is trade 48 to GB for 59 & 123; he then could've chosen either
DB Trumaine Johnson or WR Rueben Randle (my choices), or Vinny Curry or CBs Casey
Hayward & Josh Robinson.

If he stayed at 48, then he should've chosen DLman (& NH-raised) Kendall Reyes (my choice),
or Konz or LB Lavonte David, or any of the names mentioned for 59 above.

I still can't believe how badly Bill effed-up that 2nd round.

Umm.. How do you know that GB would have made that trade? OH.. you don't.

How do you know that BB effed up that 2nd round? OH, you don't know that either.

 

[DaBruinz]

You need to stand closer to the Tape, my friend.

There was no other player in the entire Draft Class like LaVonte David.

245.

425.

335.

433.

343.

Honestly, there is NO alignment in which he wouldn't've been a FORCE.

Gotta disagree with you OTG. David would NOT have been a factor in the 2GAP 3-4 System the Pats run. In fact, he becomes a major liability because there is no way he can handle guards.

Yes, in the sub-packages, David would be great. In the Tampa-2, as the MLB, he'll be great. The Pats don't play the Tampa-2.

 

[bbell31]

Gotta disagree with you OTG. David would NOT have been a factor in the 2GAP 3-4 System the Pats run. In fact, he becomes a major liability because there is no way he can handle guards.

Yes, in the sub-packages, David would be great. In the Tampa-2, as the MLB, he'll be great. The Pats don't play the Tampa-2.

Very well put, truth.

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

Gotta disagree with you OTG. David would NOT have been a factor in the 2GAP 3-4 System the Pats run. In fact, he becomes a major liability because there is no way he can handle guards.

Yes, in the sub-packages, David would be great. In the Tampa-2, as the MLB, he'll be great. The Pats don't play the Tampa-2.

Oh man, this is rich

 

[jsull87]

Oh man, this is rich

Personally i agree with DaBruins on this one. I watched the tape on David and thought he was definitely a play maker and great value in the middle 2nd but i just struggled to think where i would play him consistently on the pats. I just didn't see him as a 4 down player, where it could be argued all of our first 4 picks could be projected that way.

I also happen to agree that (from what i saw anyway and i am no scout) that his strength seemed to be the Tampa 2. Do i think he would be a good 4-3 LB? yes but i guess you can't pick em all and Wilson was better value to our FO.

 

[mayoclinic]

Looking at the Tavon Wilson pick in a vacuum is silly. You have to take into consideration what the Pats had already added in Jones and Hightower. Jones is an OLB in the Pats 3-4 and Hightower is an ILB in the 3-4 and MAYBE a pass rusher in the sub Packages.. But he's also 6'2 1/4.

Lavonte David is 6'0 1/2. He's only 233 lbs. David's ONLY position for the Pats would have been ILB in sub-packages. Yes, David has a very good vertical and strong legs and is an excellent tackler, but using a 2nd round pick on a guy who really doesn't fit the Pats 4-3 system doesn't make any sense.

As I mentioned in another thread, David is perfect for the Tampa-2. And that's exactly where he went. He should be excellent there, provided the rest of the team doesn't suck..

But, once the Pats added Hightower, there was no way David was going to be drafted. And, in all reality, I doubt that David had a high ranking for the Pats because of his height and weight and his system limitation.

We've had this discussion before, and we're just not going to agree on this. I understand and respect your point of view - I just disagree. You see David as both being a limited schematic fit and obsolete by neither. I don't agree. I had an extremely high grade on David, and I believe that despite his size issues BB could have found ways to use him creatively that would more than have justified the value of selecting him. I had him rated higher than Hightower, but I saw them as entirely different players, and the I didn't see the Hightower pick as making David obsolete at all. I recognize that I'm in the extreme minority here, as I said in a post above, and I don't expect others to agree with me. It seems that BB's view was probably closer to yours than mine, although some have noted that the Pats traded back from 62 right after Tampa Bay selected David, possibly suggesting that they still had interest in him. But it's irrelevant at this point. We won't know how good he would have been for the Pats. You aren't going to change your view, and I'm not going to change mine. Again, I recognize that mine evaluation of David is very skewed from what most people's probably were.

 

[mayoclinic]

Gotta disagree with you OTG. David would NOT have been a factor in the 2GAP 3-4 System the Pats run. In fact, he becomes a major liability because there is no way he can handle guards.

If you believe that the Pats are going to be running a 2-gap 3-4 system much of the time, then I agree with you.

Yes, in the sub-packages, David would be great. In the Tampa-2, as the MLB, he'll be great. The Pats don't play the Tampa-2.

No, they don't. But if you believe they are going to a hybrid defense with much more fluidity and movement between positions, then David would be a fit. And as Nick Caserio has noted, the Pats spent 65-70% of their time in sub packages in 2011. I think a player who would be "great" by your admission in 65-70% on the defensive snaps would be worth considering in the second round.

Again, we're just going to disagree (hopefully respectfully) on this one.

 

[The Gr8est]

FWIW, here's Mel Kiper's original evaluation of the Pats' 2009 draft:



NFL: Mel Kiper grades the NFL draft - ESPN

So Brace has been a JAG, Butler a bust, and Ingram lasted a year before he forgot how to long snap. Meanwhile Vollmer has been an All Pro.

Here's another evaluation of the 2009 draft:



2009 NFL Draft Grades: AFC East Edition - Buffalo Rumblings

I'll wait to see how Tavon Wilson does before passing judgment.

I don't like this post.....


I LOVE this post; not that it will do anything to enlighten the truly delusional who think they are better talent evaluators/drafters than those who actually do it for a living, as evidenced by some of the posts in this thread.

Disagreeing and discussing is one thing, presenting your disagreement as fact that BB doesn't know what he is doing is arrogant beyond belief.

I remember reading on line after the Vollmer pick that "BB should be locked out of the draft room". That tenor of that post is reminiscent to some of the commentary that I'm reading here.

For anyone reading this, if you had the power to overrule BB at the time the picks were made, and you would willingly exercise that power, then you are the kind of poster I am referring to.