Who is lying - Jamie Collins or Mike lombardi

[patsbrasilpatriotas]

Agreed. Odds are he was playing on his Xbox during the team mtg while Lombardi was talking, so there was no way he could reasonably be expected to remember it.

Xbox??? The pedicure/manicure dude? I highly doubt it

 

[scout]

Of course he doesn't, he doesn't know who was responsible for it. Does he coach the opposing team too? Or are you saying BB is spying on them and the fuhrer should roll out spygate II?

A great example is the Gronk TD against the Bills. Go check out the Bills forum, some of them are saying the safety bit on the inside route. Others are saying the Safety was in man coverage against Edelman. If you're on the outside, you don't know. BB explained this before to the media, you don't know who's responsible for who. You don't know what the call was. All you know is the coverage was blown.

You cherry picked a play. I would put that in the extremely confined category of "wtf happened coverage" versus knowing the coverage of every play during the season. Oh, and a special "WTF" for your spy-gate reference.

 

[Gumby]

You cherry picked a play. I would put that in the extremely confined category of "wtf happened coverage" versus knowing the coverage of every play during the season. Oh, and a special "WTF" for your spy-gate reference.

And for you/Deus to argue the opposite of what Wheelman said ("quoting BB by the way"), you have to essentially cherry pick plays where it is totaly obvious what the responsibilities of ALL THE BACK 7 are.

While neither position is 100% true, I think it is safer to say you cant always tell unless on the inside than to say an outsider (who is football/technique smart) can always tell.

 

[TomPatriot]

It really doesn't matter.

BB looked at Collins' play this year, compared it to Roberts, Van Noy and others. He wasn't impressed by the difference and he thought there might be addition by subtraction. So he tried to get a mid-to-high pick next year to help restock. Is that the smart play? "We'll see," said the Zen Master.

 

[Danger Zone]

Of course he doesn't, he doesn't know who was responsible for it. Does he coach the opposing team too? Or are you saying BB is spying on them and the fuhrer should roll out spygate II?

A great example is the Gronk TD against the Bills. Go check out the Bills forum, some of them are saying the safety bit on the inside route. Others are saying the Safety was in man coverage against Edelman. If you're on the outside, you don't know. BB explained this before to the media, you don't know who's responsible for who. You don't know what the call was. All you know is the coverage was blown.

A great post.

???

Players, coaches and fans can often figure out who's responsible for a blown coverage.

It's not rocket science, even when Patricia's calling the plays.

And a great example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[patfanken]

Where did we hear BB complain "I can't get these guys to play the way I want them to play?"

It was in 2009 in one of those 'inside look' documentary type clips. The one that featured BB and Brady meeting before a Ravens game. Its the same one where he and Brady hyped how good Ed Reed is. In that one he makes the statement either to Brady or someone, that he just can't get THIS particular team get it

 

[Ivan]

It was in 2009 in one of those 'inside look' documentary type clips. The one that featured BB and Brady meeting before a Ravens game. Its the same one where he and Brady hyped how good Ed Reed is. In that one he makes the statement either to Brady or someone, that he just can't get THIS particular team get it

I agree, and I think that's the reason for this trade. Belichick decided to let Collins go because he wasn't doing his job the way they wanted him to but I also think his attitude in the locker room and off the field played a role in this. Much like Adalius Thomas I think Collins was a distraction and negative force with other young players and that Belichick saw that as problematic in terms of getting them focused and playing on the same page. I think Belichick is trying to get everyone focused on the one goal of playing their best team football going into December and the play-offs and knew he had to deal with the culture that was developing in the locker room, as well as the focus in games.

As far as the whole free lancing argument goes I think Belichick will accept some free lancing but it has to come from veteran players who do intense film study and see things about to happen in the field and free lance on cues they learned through study, I don't think he accepts it from really young players or those who don't do the off the field work, and Collins made clear on his way out that he doesn't watch football and prefers playing video games, which doesn't lend itself to hours and hours devoted to film study.

 

[Raymond]

It was in 2009 in one of those 'inside look' documentary type clips. The one that featured BB and Brady meeting before a Ravens game. Its the same one where he and Brady hyped how good Ed Reed is. In that one he makes the statement either to Brady or someone, that he just can't get THIS particular team get it

It was Bill B, A Football Life. NFLN

 

[Ivan]

It's funny because all week I heard the talking heads crying about there is no way this could make the Patriots better when in truth that's exactly what it does if their defense all get in the same page and play better team defense. Does it weaken them in terms of depth and athleticism, of course, but that doesn't mean they can't come out of it as better defensive unit in the end, and that's what Belichick is banking on.

 

[PF_SU]

It was in 2009 in one of those 'inside look' documentary type clips. The one that featured BB and Brady meeting before a Ravens game. Its the same one where he and Brady hyped how good Ed Reed is. In that one he makes the statement either to Brady or someone, that he just can't get THIS particular team get it

It was with Brady at the sidelines in New Orleans in the late stages of the ass-whopping at the hands of the Saints.

 

[fnordcircle]

Who has the most to gain or lose?

 

[Deus Irae]

And for you/Deus to argue the opposite of what Wheelman said ("quoting BB by the way"), you have to essentially cherry pick plays where it is totaly obvious what the responsibilities of ALL THE BACK 7 are.

While neither position is 100% true, I think it is safer to say you cant always tell unless on the inside than to say an outsider (who is football/technique smart) can always tell.

There's a difference between not always being able to tell who blew a coverage and not ever being able to tell who blew a coverage. Generally speaking, figuring out who blew a coverage in man is easy, while figuring out who blew a coverage in zone is more difficult, but will still come down to one of two players.

 

[Nikolai]

Where did we hear BB complain "I can't get these guys to play the way I want them to play?"

That Saints MNF debacle in 2009...

 

[EddardSnow67]

Of course he doesn't, he doesn't know who was responsible for it. Does he coach the opposing team too? Or are you saying BB is spying on them and the fuhrer should roll out spygate II?

A great example is the Gronk TD against the Bills. Go check out the Bills forum, some of them are saying the safety bit on the inside route. Others are saying the Safety was in man coverage against Edelman. If you're on the outside, you don't know. BB explained this before to the media, you don't know who's responsible for who. You don't know what the call was. All you know is the coverage was blown.

In terms of coverage schemes, you're right. In terms of run fits, it's a little more cut and dried. The only possibility that Lombardi is wrong about that play is if the call required Collins to run blitz that gap, which makes absolutely no sense in a general defensive context and makes even less sense in the passive style of defense Matt Patricia runs.

No way Collins would be blitzing inside the guard on the second play of the game with the run and QB scramble being the Bills' offensive strength. I mean there was literally no one to set the edge except Collins or the DE and the DE collapsed the tackle. Perhaps the DE erred, but in that case, Collins at the very least shot too far inside his gap anyway. On the play you can even watch Hightower realize this and try to pursue laterally, beating the guard responsible for him to the outside from the other side of the offense. Collins actually shot the gap that Hightower was responsible for. You can tell this because the guard chases High to the outside yet there is a free blocker (TE) to pick him up when he gets to the edge. You can also see the combo block employed by the TE and LT, where leverage dictates who stays on and who comes off the block. When the DE shifted leverage inside, the TE came off to pick up the outside defender, but there's no one there at first until Hightower comes around the edge, at which time he had way too much depth to impact the play.

So, technically, you're right that he doesn't know with absolute certainty, but logic would dictate that Collins screwed up on that particular play. Coverage schemes are inherently more complicated and variable than run fits.