What's up with all this Brady is declining crap??

[FalconHeavy]

Which season did Brady spend such a large part working without his #1 target in the passing game and instead throwing to two rookies, one of which an undrafted FA and decent slot receiver who also went undrafted? This is the hardest offense to master. The WR's have either been running the wrong option routes, rounding their routes off, or dropping the ball when they do run the right routes. Not excusing Brady for the bad throws he's made, because he has made them (the INT late against New Orleans was a bad decision and throw, the pick-6 vs. the Jets was a bad throw that should have had more air under it, just to provide two examples). But he's been given very little to work with to this point and has to rely on young pass catchers mastering the hardest offense to learn in the league, which is a shame at this point in his career.

first point: Why are they not considering changing it. Others seems to do fine and able to find Offensive talent in draft very easily. We are the only ones that suck at this. probably due to the lack of coaching talent too !

second point: completely agree. this is totally unfair that they are doing this to Brady at this stage of his career. They should have gone all in for the next few years until Brady walks off in to sunset. But partial blame has to go to Brady because is such a loyal soldier and would never open up his mouth against anything that BB / Kraft does. IMO, he should have raised a stink and gotten what he wanted in O.

 

[Kontradiction]

first point: Why are they not considering changing it. Others seems to do fine and able to find Offensive talent in draft very easily. We are the only ones that suck at this. probably due to the lack of coaching talent too !

second point: completely agree. this is totally unfair that they are doing this to Brady at this stage of his career. They should have gone all in for the next few years until Brady walks off in to sunset. But partial blame has to go to Brady because is such a loyal soldier and would never open up his mouth against anything that BB / Kraft does. IMO, he should have raised a stink and gotten what he wanted in O.

Because this is the offense that Brady, GOAT candidate, has mastered. That's why they're not changing it.

 

[BrickPat]

Because this is the offense that Brady, GOAT candidate, has mastered. That's why they're not changing it.

I think BB /Kraft will make some changes as it pertains to WRs next off season. Can you see them trying to convince Brady that they will stand pat with Ras I Amendola, Dropson and bobble Thompkins?

 

[Kontradiction]

I think BB /Kraft will make some changes as it pertains to WRs next off season. Can you see them trying to convince Brady that they will stand pat with Ras I Amendola, Dropson and bobble Thompkins?

It depends on whether or not there is a staunch improvement in that area by the end of the season. Right now? I'd hope they would make some moves. But that could obviously change.

 

[MassPats38]

Brady is good but not as good as our management thought.

Is there any QB in the NFL you see as good enough to teach the bulk of key offensive players how to play NFL football?

These rookies aren't bad, but they are rookies. The hope may have been that they had the aptitude to pick it up quickly, but the process has been slow.

Management predicted Hernandez, Amendola, Gronkowski and Vereen (they were using him as a wideout preseason) would be there as fallbacks - guys with knowledge of the system that would allow the rookies to see time without being called upon repeatedly in critical downs. Edelman, with 69 career receptions in 4 years, could not have been considered the "go to" guy, but now he has 46 catches at game 7 because he is the one familiar face on the field. That crappy throw (double coverage by two taller defenders is not a throw you make, unless JE has a 6 foot vertical leap) in double coverage to him in the Saints game likely spoke volumes of his status.

And you can't just change an offensive system to match players. Players are brought in to fit the offense, not vice versa (ie., the personnel added to the Pats likely work in a timing system, so the Pats cannot simply adopt the Dallas Cowboys offense to simplify the playbook for rookies). Brady is not a speed QB. He will not run, and he is not great throwing on the run. The line has to hold, because he is a pocket passer who is very good at making slight movements in the pocket to avoid hits and makes accurate passes if given enough time.

While I am sure he could reduce sacks by simply dumping the pass at 2 seconds, the receivers don't develop without throws in a game. If they are running open and he holds the ball too long, then that is his screwup. If they are not open, his options are (1) run (not a good idea generally), (2) throw the ball away, or (3) wait a second or two longer to see if they separate. If he goes with (3), the throws cannot be as deliberate, and some will be plain off due to pressure and contact. If someone wants to say Brady has not been perfect and has made mistakes, and there have been plenty by Brady as well as everyone else, much of that goes with option (3).

 

[Rob0729]

For all the people who are talking about a decline of Brady, here is his game log for 2006. His number at least through the first six games isn't much better than he has had this year. I guess he was declining then too.

Also, that year for passes over 30 yards, he was 7 for 25 or 28%. This year he is 2 for 10 or 20%. So there isn't much difference there either.

It has more to do with his lack of familiarity with the receivers than anything else.

Tom Brady Game By Game Stats and Performance - New England Patriots - ESPN

 

[BrickPat]

For all the people who are talking about a decline of Brady, here is his game log for 2006. His number at least through the first six games isn't much better than he has had this year. I guess he was declining then too.

Also, that year for passes over 30 yards, he was 7 for 25 or 28%. This year he is 2 for 10 or 20%. So there isn't much difference there either.

It has more to do with his lack of familiarity with the receivers than anything else.

Tom Brady Game By Game Stats and Performance - New England Patriots - ESPN

Was it BB who said stats are for losers? All kidding aside I choose to believe what my eyes see. Yes the rooks are mediocre at best but there have been times where Brady threw them shockingly inaccurate passes when they were wide open. Still say it has to do with confidence (or lack thereof) and there will be a modest WR revamp in the off season.

 

[Rob0729]

Was it BB who said stats are for losers? All kidding aside I choose to believe what my eyes see. Yes the rooks are mediocre at best but there have been times where Brady threw them shockingly inaccurate passes when they were wide open. Still say it has to do with confidence (or lack thereof) and there will be a modest WR revamp in the off season.

I don't think the rookies are mediocre. They are actually pretty good for rookies, they are just rookies.

Brady hasn't been perfect. Far from it at time. But I don't think it has to do with age because of the fact his problems aren't typically age related.

 

[oldskool138]

"And you can't just change an offensive system to match players."

Sure you can! In fact, you must, in certain situations. Answer me this, do the Pats run the same offense now as they had when Bledsoe was playing or did they change it based on the players they have? How about the offense when Cory Dillon was on the team?

"so the Pats cannot simply adopt the Dallas Cowboys offense to simplify the playbook for rookies"

Why not? The two top WR's that aren't hurt are rookies that desperately need to get on the same page as Brady.

 

[BennyBledsoe]

Good players and teams adapt to who they're playing with. I'm sure they'll figure it out.

 

[letekro]

For all the people who are talking about a decline of Brady, here is his game log for 2006. His number at least through the first six games isn't much better than he has had this year. I guess he was declining then too.

Also, that year for passes over 30 yards, he was 7 for 25 or 28%. This year he is 2 for 10 or 20%. So there isn't much difference there either.

It has more to do with his lack of familiarity with the receivers than anything else.

Tom Brady Game By Game Stats and Performance - New England Patriots - ESPN

Great post, except it is completely wrong.

After 7 games in 2006, Brady had 14 TDs and a 92 average rating. After 7 games in 2013, he has 8 TDs and a 75 rating. That is a significant difference, especially considering that the 2006 receivers and running backs were worse than the 2013 versions.

 

[sb1]

Great post, except it is completely wrong.

After 7 games in 2006, Brady had 14 TDs and a 92 average rating. After 7 games in 2013, he has 8 TDs and a 75 rating. That is a significant difference, especially considering that the 2006 receivers and running backs were worse than the 2013 versions.

The 06 Pats had one of the top OL's in football.

This year they are playing lousy, and it shows in the stats of the QB.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think the rookies are mediocre. They are actually pretty good for rookies, they are just rookies.

Brady hasn't been perfect. Far from it at time. But I don't think it has to do with age because of the fact his problems aren't typically age related.

What's surprising people, I think, is that they didn't actually expect Amendola to get hurt, despite his history. An offense with Amendola/Edelman/Dobson or Thompkins as the top 3 WRs is a much different offense than one with Thompkins/Edelman/Dobson as the top 3 WRs.

Julio Jones caught 54 passes as a rookie
A.J. Green caught 65 passes as a rookie
Calvin Johnson caught 48 passes as a rookie

That's 3 of the very best WRs in the game today, and the Patriots are, out of necessity, forcing the ball to Thompkins and Dobson to the tune of them being on pace for 53 and 50 catches respectively, despite all the drops, poor routes, etc..., when neither of them is near the level of a Jones, Green or Johnson. When you couple that with the absence of Gronk and AHern, terrible offensive play really shouldn't be surprising anyone. I think that the fact that it is surprising so many people just shows that a lot of people really didn't remember how much rookie WRs usually struggle, probably because we haven't really had to deal with that in New England since Branch was a rookie.

Brady's just the fall guy.

 

[Rob0729]

What's surprising people, I think, is that they didn't actually expect Amendola to get hurt, despite his history. An offense with Amendola/Edelman/Dobson or Thompkins as the top 3 WRs is a much different offense than one with Thompkins/Edelman/Dobson as the top 3 WRs.

Julio Jones caught 54 passes as a rookie
A.J. Green caught 65 passes as a rookie
Calvin Johnson caught 48 passes as a rookie

That's 3 of the very best WRs in the game today, and the Patriots are, out of necessity, forcing the ball to Thompkins and Dobson to the tune of them being on pace for 53 and 50 catches respectively, despite all the drops, poor routes, etc..., when neither of them is near the level of a Jones, Green or Johnson. When you couple that with the absence of Gronk and AHern, terrible offensive play really shouldn't be surprising anyone. I think that the fact that it is surprising so many people just shows that a lot of people really didn't remember how much rookie WRs usually struggle, probably because we haven't really had to deal with that in New England since Branch was a rookie.

Brady's just the fall guy.

Brady isn't just the fall guy. He deserves a decent share of the blame pie. So does the o-line that has been atrocious at times the last three weeks (the beginning of the second half this weekend had nothing to do with the receivers). The receivers also deserve the blame too.

The ironic thing is Brady was worse this weekend because he over-relied on Gronk than he was when he didn't have a proven target in his arsenal.

The receiving corp has been an issue, but not as big as you make it to be. Brady has been an issue, but not as big as others make it to be. To your overall agenda, Welker would have helped this offense but not fix the problem. There are far more issues going on than the loss of Welker or any one receiver. If Hernandez didn't go to jail, he wouldn't have fixed the issues either.

 

[Deus Irae]

Brady isn't just the fall guy. He deserves a decent share of the blame pie. So does the o-line that has been atrocious at times the last three weeks (the beginning of the second half this weekend had nothing to do with the receivers). The receivers also deserve the blame too.

The ironic thing is Brady was worse this weekend because he over-relied on Gronk than he was when he didn't have a proven target in his arsenal.

The receiving corp has been an issue, but not as big as you make it to be. Brady has been an issue, but not as big as others make it to be. To your overall agenda, Welker would have helped this offense but not fix the problem. There are far more issues going on than the loss of Welker or any one receiver. If Hernandez didn't go to jail, he wouldn't have fixed the issues either.

This is what happens when you take all 5 top receivers away and replace them with 2 rookies, OHOH, Mulligan, Bolden and a guy who had 69 receptions in his first 4 seasons. It's also what happens when the receiver change means you have to change your offense from one that strikes right down the middle of the field to one that has to function largely on the outside. I think it's the receivers, Rob. I think they are every bit the issue that I make it to be, and I expect that time will show that, once Gronk and Amendola are back and healthy, and the group has a chance to gel.

 

[Rob0729]

This is what happens when you take all 5 top receivers away and replace them with 2 rookies, OHOH, Mulligan, Bolden and a guy who had 69 receptions in his first 4 seasons. It's also what happens when the receiver change means you have to change your offense from one that strikes right down the middle of the field to one that has to function largely on the outside. I think it's the receivers, Rob. I think they are every bit the issue that I make it to be, and I expect that time will show that, once Gronk and Amendola are back and healthy, and the group has a chance to gel.

And you know that isn't what happened. Vereen was Woodhead's replacement. He broke his arm. The Pats had no idea that Hernandez was a sociopath. A lot of it was out of the Pats' control.

And the o-line totally missing assignments and getting beat on four man rushes have nothing to do with the receiving corp. The o-line deciding not to block Mohammed Wilkerson on a passing play is not the receivers' fault.

Also, Brady overthrowing and underthrowing wide open WRs are not all on the receivers. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Brady deserves some of the blame.

Yes, the turnover in the receiving corp has been an issue, but this offense has had far more problems than the receiving corp.

 

[letekro]

And you know that isn't what happened. Vereen was Woodhead's replacement. He broke his arm. The Pats had no idea that Hernandez was a sociopath. A lot of it was out of the Pats' control.

And the o-line totally missing assignments and getting beat on four man rushes have nothing to do with the receiving corp. The o-line deciding not to block Mohammed Wilkerson on a passing play is not the receivers' fault.

Also, Brady overthrowing and underthrowing wide open WRs are not all on the receivers. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Brady deserves some of the blame.

Yes, the turnover in the receiving corp has been an issue, but this offense has had far more problems than the receiving corp.

I agree with all of this. I would also note that it seems that the one thing these rookies do well--get behind the defense--has not been exploited because of Tom's lack of accuracy on the deep ball. Conversely, the rookies don't have the timing down for Tom to show his talents in the short passing game. It's just not a good match right now. The blame doesn't fall solely on either side.

 

[Kdo5]

The 06 Pats had one of the top OL's in football.

This year they are playing lousy, and it shows in the stats of the QB.

The 06 Pats had a good rushing tandem w/Dillon/Maroney and Faulk as a 3rd down back. They still had an older Troy Brown who had long experience and chemistry w/Brady. Daniel Graham and Ben Watson were a good duo at TE. And up until the AFCCG, our receivers didn't have major cases of the dropsies.

IMO there were reliable guys on that offense who had been there for a while, and had Brady's trust. That's not really the same this year w/the exception of Gronk who just played his first game.

 

[Deus Irae]

first point: Why are they not considering changing it. Others seems to do fine and able to find Offensive talent in draft very easily. We are the only ones that suck at this. probably due to the lack of coaching talent too !

Wait... where's the lack of ability to find offensive talent in the draft?

QB - Brady/Cassel/Hoyer (and they're even 6/7/UDFA)
RB - Ridley/Vereen
OL - Solder/Mankins/Vollmer/etc....
TE - Gronk/AHern

The only position left is WR, and that's one that they hadn't been paying much attention to prior to this season.

I think the drafting has been inconsistent, as all drafting is, and I think they bombed out a lot from 2006-2009, but those were mostly defensive drafts.

 

[Deus Irae]

And you know that isn't what happened. Vereen was Woodhead's replacement. He broke his arm. The Pats had no idea that Hernandez was a sociopath. A lot of it was out of the Pats' control.

Sorry, but it is what happened, and I didn't blame the Patriots. Some of it is Patriots-decision based, and some of it is not but, in the end, it's what I said it was.