What's the worst Pats team since 2004?

[RayClay]

That is completely irrational and bleeds bitterness.

One last stop in SB42 and that team is considered the greatest of all-time.

So you have to go back and change history to make your point?

The object every year is to win the Super Bowl, nothing else. Gaudy statistics are nice and imaginary greatest teams ever, if that is important to you.

I'm way too old to be bitter about a football team.

The habits and play style that won us three super bowls were changed for that team that did not. They are hurting our play calling now, which is why I'm listing it.

The problems of 2005 could be solved by drafting or acquiring players or just getting healthy. The 2007 and current teams are loaded with talent. A team that's loaded with talent and still can't get over the hump is a much bigger problem than a team that needs to fill a few spots.

I'm optimistic about the current team, but the pass happy, star system offense seems alive and well to me and is hazardous to our prospects if not altered IMO.

 

[RobertWeathers]

So you have to go back and change history to make your point?

The object every year is to win the Super Bowl, nothing else. Gaudy statistics are nice and imaginary greatest teams ever, if that is important to you.

I'm way too old to be bitter about a football team.

The habits and play style that won us three super bowls were changed for that team that did not. They are hurting our play calling now, which is why I'm listing it.

The problems of 2005 could be solved by drafting or acquiring players or just getting healthy. The 2007 and current teams are loaded with talent. A team that's loaded with talent and still can't get over the hump is a much bigger problem than a team that needs to fill a few spots.

I'm optimistic about the current team, but the pass happy, star system offense seems alive and well to me and is hazardous to our prospects if not altered IMO.

I'm not changing anything, RayClay. Ok. The fact that they went 18-1 and did better than a 11-7 team is justification enough.

I understand you logic better, but I still don't agree with it. You are judging on the what-ifs (2005) and using a style of football that you don't like (using 2007 was the foundation for failures now) to make your arguement.

I'm going by what happened and the outcome of a single year. You are using multiple data points spread across multiple years.

 

[aluminum seats]

Oh no?? I have no real complaints and think all of the teams were good.. could they have done some things better yes, but all these polls about the gloom and doom need to be put into perspective.. we have fielded a top team in this decade..

This isn't gloom and doom, it's a way of talking about the different teams--there's no whining, etc. here at all. That's why your post would be better placed elsewhere.

 

[aluminum seats]

You had me until you said this....

Why isn't the 2007 team a TEAM? All due respect but that line of thinking makes no sense. The most dominant team in regular season history, with two touh playoff wins vs a hot JAX team and a galvinized SD squad and comes within 30 seconds of cementing itself as THE greatest team of all-time potentially loses to a secondary of rookie Hobbs, a not yet good Asante, Artrell Hawkins and lost Eugene Wilson? That schedule at the end of the year for 2005 team was full of cupcakes.

If Rodney doesnt get hurt....its a closer contest. That I may agree with.

yeah, I went back and forth with that one. Obviously 2007 was a great team, and the possibility exists they would have blown out the 2005 Pats. But the 2007 offense had slowed down, and I guess my point is that the 2005version could have made a game of it.

 

[Nikolai]

I went with 2006. It was very close between that and 2005.

I don't fault the 2008 team for not making the playoffs. It was a fluky year in many respects. Teams with 11-5 records tend to make the playoffs, and the Pats just happened to be on the short end of the stick, after just happening to lose their franchise player. Sure, they had a pretty easy schedule, but winning in the NFL isn't easy, especially when critical pieces are missing from your team.

2006
2005
2008
2009
2007

 

[RayClay]

I'm not changing anything, RayClay. Ok. The fact that they went 18-1 and did better than a 11-7 team is justification enough.

I understand you logic better, but I still don't agree with it. You are judging on the what-ifs (2005) and using a style of football that you don't like (using 2007 was the foundation for failures now) to make your arguement.

I'm going by what happened and the outcome of a single year. You are using multiple data points spread across multiple years.

Sure, I'm stretching to make a point, but the point is damned valid. There is no NFL trophy for greatest team of all time, that's in people's imaginaginations.

Given that, we need to separate football as entertainment, gaudy statistics, beautiful pass plays, and football as winning the last game.

In my opinion, we are doing a great job of putting a competitive team on the field every year, the only way to maximize chances of winning it all IMO. Too many examples of great teams that didn't win and flukes like 2001 that got hot and did it.

I really liked that 2005 team. They obviously had less talent to work with, hell they put two full complements of a starting secondary on IR at least. every running back went down, yet they found a way to make the playoffs. They were only a couple playoff wins away from what the 2007 team did, because winning it all is what counts. Had they picked up a couple more waiver players, maybe they could have done something because they had learned hoe to adapt, how to squeeze out improbable wins. Did the 2007 team?

Like I say, I'm making a point, but it's the same in life. You going to bet on the guy who has lived on a big inheritance or the guy who fought all the way out of tough circumstances, when the going gets tough?

I love the talent on this team and I love watching Moss and Welker. My opinion is we are wasting Moss's talents by not exploiting all the openings teams give us because of their overplay on him and Welker.

Moss getting beat up at the line, Moss getting smashed over the middle, throwing to Moss in triple coverage. Insanity. Same goes with continuing to pass to Welker when he's covered instead of using TEs, running, using Faulk, screen passes on the opposite side of the field etc.

When we patiently march up the field, or indeed get big plays form the supporting cast for TDs, defenses will have to adjust, the easy passes (anything under triple coverag lol) to Moss will be back, the middle will open back up for Welker. It's football 101.

A balanced offense including stars is even more entertaining than a strictly long passing offense. When you are talking about 2004 and later greatest teams, you're talking most entertaining, none of them won it all. Beating the Titans by 50 points is the same as beating the skins or buf in 2007. 20-40 points that are completely, and I mean completely meaningless. To the extent that it makes offenses distorted or complacent, I'd say big wins could even be counter productive.

 

[RayClay]

I'll throw in 2006 because i think it was predictable we would be so old and lacking in depth at linebacker it would cost us.

 

[IcyPatriot]

We had a 11-5 record with Cassel last year.
Is it the worst nightmare when we have a 11-5 with TB this year? Who would think of that???

Only you ... just you

 

[Kontradiction]

Patriots opposition post-bye week defensive rankings 2008:

Week 5: 49ers - 13th
Week 6: Chargers - 25th
Week 7: Broncos - 29th
Week 8: Rams - 28th
Week 9: Colts - 11th
Week 10: Bills - 14th
Week 11: Jets - 16th
Week 12: Dolphins - 15th
Week 13: Steelers - 1st
Week 14: Seahawks - 30th
Week 15: Raiders - 27th
Week 16: Cardinals - 19th
Week 17: Bills - 14th

Patriots opposition defensive rankings since Week 5 2009:

Week 5: Broncos - 5th
Week 6: Titans - 25th
Week 7: Bucs - 26th
Week 8: Bye
Week 9: Dolphins - 19th
Week 10: Colts - 15th
Week 11: Jets - 1st
Week 12: Saints - 16th

I didn't feel comfortable going on after Week 12 because those are games that have yet to be played. But, if anyone is curious, the defensive rankings of the teams we face from Week 13 on are as follows: 19, 11, 23, 21, 17. In the same period of time between 2008 and 2009, Brady has face two top ten defenses while Cassel faced just one. In the same period of time, Brady has faced two top five defenses and Cassel faced just one. Both faced the number one ranked defense at the time (Cassel's being the number one ranked to end the year, while Brady's opposition likely to finish in the top three, if not number one). Here are their numbers...

Cassel vs. Pittsburgh: 19 for 39 for 169 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs
Brady vs. NYJ: 28 for 41 for 310 yards, 1 TD, 0 INTs

Cassel also played Pittsburgh later in the year and had the "advantage" of getting his sea legs under him by then and still put up a stinker against a team which Brady regularly sawed in half evertime they played.

Passing stats through Week 12 this year: Brady - 20 TDs; 8 INTs
Passing stats through Week 12 2008: Cassel - 13 TDs; 8 INTs

Given the defensive strength of the opposition and the sheer numbers, and on top of those numbers, the fact that Cassel had better weapons to throw to in the passing game in 2008 than Brady does in 2009, I'm not quite sure how anybody in their right mind can say that Cassel was playing better last year than Brady is this year through Week 12 of the season.

 

[Deus Irae]

Sure, I'm stretching to make a point, but the point is damned valid. There is no NFL trophy for greatest team of all time, that's in people's imaginaginations.

The point's not valid, though. The 2007 team was one of the greatest teams ever assembled. You'd have to go back to at least the Chicago Bears Super Bowl winning team to find a better team, and even that's an arguable proposition.

 

[IcyPatriot]

How is anyone here "spoiled", regarding this particular thread? The poll is about Patriots teams post-2004. I assume we'd all have put every one of those teams ahead of the 2008 Lions, but that was not the question being posed.

The negativity by some ... sucks ... it's an opinion forum ... I gave mine.

YouTube - pitino

 

[Nikolai]

The point's not valid, though. The 2007 team was one of the greatest teams ever assembled. You'd have to go back to at least the Chicago Bears Super Bowl winning team to find a better team, and even that's an arguable proposition.

Good points. I put the 07 Pats in the same league with the 67 Colts; two amazing teams that failed to get the ring. These two teams should go down as being among the best football teams of all time, without a doubt.

 

[Deus Irae]

Given the defensive strength of the opposition and the sheer numbers, and on top of those numbers, the fact that Cassel had better weapons to throw to in the passing game in 2008 than Brady does in 2009, I'm not quite sure how anybody in their right mind can say that Cassel was playing better last year than Brady is this year through Week 12 of the season.

Because he was, in my opinion. In the second half of last season, the only bad game Cassel had was the Pittsburgh game, and that game snowballed after Cassel put the ball into Moss' hands in the endzone, which would have given the Patriots a nice lead had Moss not dropped it. It's true that the Patriots fell apart after that, and Cassel certainly wilted in the second half, but we saw Brady screw the pooch just this Monday, with the difference being that it was a Brady mistake that started the avalanche against the Saints.

BTW, Cassel was a major part in the Pittsburgh and San Diego losses last year. That's it. The Miami loss was about the wildcat. The Indianapolis loss was about a dropped pass and a stupid personal foul. The Jets game was lost by a coin flip in overtime after Cassel helped engineer a great comeback. Brady's already been a major reason for losses against the Jets, Saints and, arguably, the Broncos.

As for Cassel having better weapons to throw to, that would be one 'weapon', the WR3. However, this year, Maroney is finally being used out of the backfield, giving Brady a weapon that Cassel didn't have.

Brady's the better QB. Brady's the G.O.A.T. in my estimation. That was not the point of what I posted, since it was just about a snapshot in time.

Also, if you want to throw out some numbers, let's use the last 11 games of 2008 and the start of this year, even though I look at Cassel's season as making the jump beginning with the Jets game:

Number of times the Patriots scored fewer than 10 points
2008: 0
2009: 1

Number of times the Patriots scored fewer than 20 points
2008: 3
2009: 3

Number of times the Patriots scored more than 30 points
2008: 5
2009: 4

Number of losses:
2008: 3
2009: 4

You may disagree with the notion that Cassel was playing better at the end of last season than Brady has so far this season, and there are some statistical arguments in Brady's favor that can be defended. But, to call the notion "foolish" as another poster did, or to say "I'm not quite sure how anybody in their right mind can say that Cassel was playing better last year than Brady is this year" one has to basically ignore the reality of what's gone on with the team this season.

 

[pats1]

Because he was, in my opinion. In the second half of last season, the only bad game Cassel had was the Pittsburgh game, and that game snowballed after Cassel put the ball into Moss' hands in the endzone, which would have given the Patriots a nice lead had Moss not dropped it. It's true that the Patriots fell apart after that, and Cassel certainly wilted in the second half, but we saw Brady screw the pooch just this Monday, with the difference being that it was a Brady mistake that started the avalanche against the Saints.

BTW, Cassel was a major part in the Pittsburgh and San Diego losses last year. That's it. The Miami loss was about the wildcat. The Indianapolis loss was about a dropped pass and a stupid personal foul. The Jets game was lost by a coin flip in overtime after Cassel helped engineer a great comeback. Brady's already been a major reason for losses against the Jets, Saints and, arguably, the Broncos.

As for Cassel having better weapons to throw to, that would be one 'weapon', the WR3. However, this year, Maroney is finally being used out of the backfield, giving Brady a weapon that Cassel didn't have.

Brady's the better QB. Brady's the G.O.A.T. in my estimation. That was not the point of what I posted, since it was just about a snapshot in time.

Also, if you want to throw out some numbers, let's use the last 11 games of 2008 and the start of this year, even though I look at Cassel's season as making the jump beginning with the Jets game:

Number of times the Patriots scored fewer than 10 points
2008: 0
2009: 1

Number of times the Patriots scored fewer than 20 points
2008: 3
2009: 3

Number of times the Patriots scored more than 30 points
2008: 5
2009: 4

Number of losses:
2008: 3
2009: 4

You may disagree with the notion that Cassel was playing better at the end of last season than Brady has so far this season, and there are some statistical arguments in Brady's favor that can be defended. But, to call the notion "foolish" as another poster did, or to say "I'm not quite sure how anybody in their right mind can say that Cassel was playing better last year than Brady is this year" one has to basically ignore the reality of what's gone on with the team this season.

I think someone should put together Brady's numbers in the final seven games of 2007 (with/without playoffs) vs. Cassel's numbers in the final seven games of 2008. I think we'd be surprised.

Alright, I'll do it:

Brady, Weeks 14-17, playoffs of 2007:

15 TD, 6 INT, 67% passing, 264 yds/game

Brady, Weeks 11-17 of 2007:

17 TD, 4 INT, 64% passing, 254 yds/game

Cassel, Weeks 11-17 of 2008:

14 TD, 4 INT, 59% passing, 270 yds/game

 

[RayClay]

The point's not valid, though. The 2007 team was one of the greatest teams ever assembled. You'd have to go back to at least the Chicago Bears Super Bowl winning team to find a better team, and even that's an arguable proposition.

The point is valid. Assembling a team is great.

The point is to win a super bowl. Why not just say most entertaining team, or best fantasy team assembled? Beating teams by 40 points counts the same as 1 point, you know. It counts 1 (W)

There were some damned impressive teams assembled, if you're talking composed of all pros, that totally took a dump.

It's hard to compile a list because, well, nobody cares how good a team was assembled, if they don't perform and perform when it counts.

I'll take our three imperfect, but performing teams and you can have "greatest assembled".

You might check out some recent Redskins teams to start.

Jets often start out with the greatest team ever assembled too.

 

[Deus Irae]

The point is valid. Assembling a team is great.

The point is to win a super bowl. Why not just say most entertaining team, or best fantasy team assembled? Beating teams by 40 points counts the same as 1 point, you know. It counts 1 (W)

There were some damned impressive teams assembled, if you're talking composed of all pros, that totally took a dump.

It's hard to compile a list because, well, nobody cares how good a team was assembled, if they don't perform and perform when it counts.

I'll take our three imperfect, but performing teams and you can have "greatest assembled".

You might check out some recent Redskins teams to start.

Jets often start out with the greatest team ever assembled too.

What you'll "take" has nothing to do with the poll. That 2007 team would have crushed every other Patriots team post 2004. Your assertion is not valid in the context of the thread.

 

[Lansdowne]

The worst Pats team since 2004 was the 2005 team. Won the division.... at 10-6. Humiliated at home by the Chargers and Colts, ending their 21-game home win streak in the process. The Patriots would drop nine home games over the next four seasons.

One of the things we can hang our hats on with this year's team is at least we've protected our home turf so far (6-0). The common factor of the 2002, 2005, 2006, and 2008 teams is that they all lost 3 games at the Razor. At worst this year's bunch will tie the 2001 squad with two losses and at best they'll tie the 2003, 2004, and 2007 teams at keeping it clean.

After this week, the schedules get dicey for the Bengals and Chargers. The #2 seed is still in play, and if they can get there, it will be just a matter of hoping that the Colts get upset in the second round and the road to the Super Bowl could actually not go through the road at all.

Here's how I rank them, starting with the worst:

2005: See above.
2008: Although I still believe they could've won the Super Bowl if not for some horrible December luck (getting no help from the Dolphins and Ravens). Pats were clicking at the right time.
2009: Still a good team, but their losses are a microcosm of all the heartbreaking losses of the previous four seasons.
2006: Similar to 2008, only with a much more realistic chance of happening (with 1:42 and the Rex Grossman-led Bears the only remaining obstacles)
2007: Would have been remembered as the most dominant Patriots team of my life-time if they hadn't run out of gas just before the finish line. As it were, the 2004 team remains the best.

 

[Kontradiction]

Because he was, in my opinion.

And you're certainly entitled to that.

In the second half of last season, the only bad game Cassel had was the Pittsburgh game, and that game snowballed after Cassel put the ball into Moss' hands in the endzone, which would have given the Patriots a nice lead had Moss not dropped it.

Coincidentally, that was also the only quality defensive team that Cassel played in the second half of that season... and he didn't look so hot. You can talk about the point in which that game "snowballed" all you want (and I agree with you about that), but the fact of the matter is that Cassel never once looked comfortable against a defense of that calibur. Yeah, we would have had a nice lead. But it wouldn't have lasted. Roethlisberger and the Steelers had no problem putting points up against our defense while Cassel couldn't return the favor against theirs. 2008 was largely a benefit of having a creampuff schedule.

It's true that the Patriots fell apart after that, and Cassel certainly wilted in the second half, but we saw Brady screw the pooch just this Monday, with the difference being that it was a Brady mistake that started the avalanche against the Saints.

I fully agree that Brady had a terrible game this past Monday night. But any quarterback out there is going to prone to stinkers from time to time. Even Montana and Manning were and are prone to throwing up stinkers and Brady is no different. That still doesn't change the fact that Brady has put up better numbers against statistically better competition this season. Through Week 12, Brady is once again in the midst of a single digit interception season.

As for Cassel having better weapons to throw to, that would be one 'weapon', the WR3.

That's a helluva weapon to have when you consider how defenses are starting to play Moss and Welker. Cassel had yet another guy there that could make the defense pay if they drew too much attention to those two guys alone. Brady does not have that. Also, earlier in the thread, you highlighted out the O-Line was playing better at this point last season than they are this season. That's another point in Brady's corner for two reasons. For one, Cassel was more mobile and having an offensive line that could hold back the pass rush gave him even more of an advantage at this point last season. For another, the offensive line playing that well made it possible to move the tight ends off of the LOS more than they have this season which gave Cassel yet another weapon in the passing game which Brady has only had sporadically this season.

However, this year, Maroney is finally being used out of the backfield, giving Brady a weapon that Cassel didn't have.

Maroney's pass catching stats so far this season: 11 receptions, 74 yards, 0 TDs. That's not really what I would call a "weapon", especially when you consider that production in the passing game and compare it to Gaffney's production in the passing game last season. On top of that, Maroney really didn't start catching passes out of the backfield until very recently, so Brady hasn't had him as an option this entire season. However, it is encouraging to see Maroney get involved in the passing game more. It's something that many of us have been calling for and if he can do that more in the playoffs, we'll have yet another interesting dynamic to this offense.

Brady's the better QB. Brady's the G.O.A.T. in my estimation. That was not the point of what I posted, since it was just about a snapshot in time.

There was never any doubt in my mind that you didn't consider Brady the GOAT.

Number of times the Patriots scored fewer than 10 points
2008: 0
2009: 1

Number of times the Patriots scored fewer than 20 points
2008: 3
2009: 3

Number of times the Patriots scored more than 30 points
2008: 5
2009: 4

Number of losses:
2008: 3
2009: 4

Again, this can all go to the defensive competition that both teams have faced. I do realize these stats exist, though. How many times did the Pats score almost 60 in a game in 2008? When did they do that in 2008 while Cassel threw for 5 TDs in a quarter? This season, against stiffer competition than in 2008, Brady is leading the offense to a #2 ranking (only behind one of the most complete offenses that many of us have ever seen), and has his team also ranking #2 in passing offense as well. Last season, against lesser defensive competition with better weapons, Cassel had his team as the #5 ranked offense with the #15th ranked passing offense. The stats are still in Brady's favor.

You may disagree with the notion that Cassel was playing better at the end of last season than Brady has so far this season, and there are some statistical arguments in Brady's favor that can be defended. But, to call the notion "foolish" as another poster did, or to say "I'm not quite sure how anybody in their right mind can say that Cassel was playing better last year than Brady is this year" one has to basically ignore the reality of what's gone on with the team this season.

Well, that was a wrong choice of words by me and I should have worded it differently. The stats and arguments you have made are compelling evidence and I can see where some would be in favor of Cassel. But, in my opinion, the arguments and statistical evidence presented for Brady this season are much more compelling. Is Brady having the kind of season we are accustomed to? No. Definitely not. But I thoroughly believe that we're in better hands with him this season than we would be with Cassel.

one has to basically ignore the reality of what's gone on with the team this season.

You clearly haven't been reading my posts on the state of the team this season.

----------

Let me just say that I was and always will be thankful for what Cassel accomplished last season. What he was able to do, after not having played since high school, and being thrown to the wolves, and having had to deal with the majority of the fanbase wanting him out after the preseason, was nothing short of impressive. He had a great year for us. However, I am in no way convinced that his play was better last season than Brady's is at the same point this season.

 

[Deus Irae]

Coincidentally, that was also the only quality defensive team that Cassel played in the second half of that season... and he didn't look so hot. You can talk about the point in which that game "snowballed" all you want (and I agree with you about that), but the fact of the matter is that Cassel never once looked comfortable against a defense of that calibur. Yeah, we would have had a nice lead. But it wouldn't have lasted. Roethlisberger and the Steelers had no problem putting points up against our defense while Cassel couldn't return the favor against theirs. 2008 was largely a benefit of having a creampuff schedule.

Cassel was looking fine until Moss got the dropsies. An incomplete pass to Moss on 3rd and 2 from the Pitt 11 meant that the Patriots had to settle for a field goal. Big Ben drove Pitt down for a TD. Cassel then answered for the Patriots by driving them from the Patriots' 27 down to the Pittsburgh 9. 3 incompletions to Moss later, Gost missed a field goal. That was, basically, the end of the half.

To start the second half, Cassel led the team from the Patriots 24 to a 2nd and 1 on the Pitt 31. Cassel was then sacked and taken out of field goal range. Pitt went on a 7 minute drive that ended in a FG. That was followed by Slater's fumble and touchdown which made it 20-10. The very next offensive play was the sack/fumble on Cassel, which lead to another FG, and the beating commenced. How that's supposed to be Cassel not looking comfortable to that point is something I just don't fathom. Prior to the Slater fumble/Cassel fumble combination, it was just a good game between an excellent defense and an improving offense with Moss' bad hands being the main difference in Pittsburgh's favor.

I fully agree that Brady had a terrible game this past Monday night. But any quarterback out there is going to prone to stinkers from time to time. Even Montana and Manning were and are prone to throwing up stinkers and Brady is no different. That still doesn't change the fact that Brady has put up better numbers against statistically better competition this season. Through Week 12, Brady is once again in the midst of a single digit interception season.

You're equating numbers with performance as if it's a 1 to 1 thing when it's not. Furthermore, Cassel's numbers in the second half of last season were just fine on their own.

That's a helluva weapon to have when you consider how defenses are starting to play Moss and Welker. Cassel had yet another guy there that could make the defense pay if they drew too much attention to those two guys alone. Brady does not have that. Also, earlier in the thread, you highlighted out the O-Line was playing better at this point last season than they are this season. That's another point in Brady's corner for two reasons. For one, Cassel was more mobile and having an offensive line that could hold back the pass rush gave him even more of an advantage at this point last season. For another, the offensive line playing that well made it possible to move the tight ends off of the LOS more than they have this season which gave Cassel yet another weapon in the passing game which Brady has only had sporadically this season.

Yeah, I don't agree with much of this, other than the O-line playing better at the end of last season than it has this season, although it's been generally fairly solid in the passing game. Brady's been wildly inconsistent at the key moments this season, and Brady had Galloway on his team, but couldn't find a way to make that work. Galloway, even at 38, was a better player than any other WR3 Brady's played with before, and that includes Gaffney.

Maroney's pass catching stats so far this season: 11 receptions, 74 yards, 0 TDs. That's not really what I would call a "weapon", especially when you consider that production in the passing game and compare it to Gaffney's production in the passing game last season. On top of that, Maroney really didn't start catching passes out of the backfield until very recently, so Brady hasn't had him as an option this entire season. However, it is encouraging to see Maroney get involved in the passing game more. It's something that many of us have been calling for and if he can do that more in the playoffs, we'll have yet another interesting dynamic to this offense.

Gaffney caught 38 passes last season. Edelman's already caught 26 passes this season, and he's missed games due to injury. It's time to put the myth of Gaffney as the difference maker to bed. I think the team should have kept Galloway and designed plays that allowed him to run more standard routes. I think that failing to make the system flexible when there wasn't a better option was a mistake. But it's not as if Edelman, Maroney and Aiken haven't made up for Gaffney, because they have. They just haven't made that 3rd option a clear upgrade, which it could have been had the team found a way to make the Galloway option work.

Again, this can all go to the defensive competition that both teams have faced. I do realize these stats exist, though. How many times did the Pats score almost 60 in a game in 2008? When did they do that in 2008 while Cassel threw for 5 TDs in a quarter? This season, against stiffer competition than in 2008, Brady is leading the offense to a #2 ranking (only behind one of the most complete offenses that many of us have ever seen), and has his team also ranking #2 in passing offense as well. Last season, against lesser defensive competition with better weapons, Cassel had his team as the #5 ranked offense with the #15th ranked passing offense. The stats are still in Brady's favor.

Actually, ranking the Jets as the #1 defense just shows that stat to be a joke at this time. They are currently #6 in scoring, and a portion of that is because Brady sucked so badly against them in week 2, particularly once it got to be red zone offense situations. Neither the 2008 team nor the 2009 team was facing many juggernaut defenses.

Last season, despite the slow offensive start and a more heavy investment in the running game, the Patriots ended up as the #8 scoring offense. I expect that Brady will improve more and become more consistent, especially since the rest of the schedule shouldn't have any losses in it and is full of mediocre defenses. That's for the future rather than the present, however.

Also, you're using the full season from last year. That's not what the poll was asking about. It was asking about the team at the end of last season. Pats1 has already put up some numbers about it. I consider the switch point to be the Jets game, myself.

 

[RayClay]

What you'll "take" has nothing to do with the poll. That 2007 team would have crushed every other Patriots team post 2004. Your assertion is not valid in the context of the thread.

It's been proposed they were better than the 2001, 03, 04 teams too. True?