What’s Left To Do?

[DaBruinz]

Does this mean Cole Strange is our starting LT? Never has a tackle measured less than 78” for a wing span at the Combine, invented by Bucko Kilroy.

Sit down, Captain Stone wannabe. You're schtick is old and stinks worse than a full septic tank.

It's amazing how you claim that you are a fan of this team during a time when it had arguably one of the best O-Line coaches to ever coach, yet you ignore his statements about Wingspan and Arm length because you think you're smarter than him. Sorry, but I'll take Dante Scarnecchia's opinion about Arm Length and wingspan over you any day.

Go ahead and show everyone the PROOF of your CLAIMS.. Or are you just being a lemming and regurgitating some BS you heard?

 

[DaBruinz]

Vederian Lowe will start at LT this season at some point. Lowe-Campbell-Bradbury-Robinson-Moses.

I’m making a big assumption about Onwenu being let go when he shows up to TC out of shape and at 375+. Like he has the two previous times.

And assuming old man Moses will play and play well is a double-barreled shotgun of unicorns and rainbows dancing in the air.

Ozzy Trapilo being drafted at 59 hurts. Hurts bad.

You're quoting some nobody hack as if his s**t is gospel?

Onwenu hasn't shown up to TC at 375+. Where the hell are you getting this idiocy?


Why are you thinking that Moses won't play well? What PROOF do you have?

What I think is that you're a Butt hurt Negative Nancy who's ego is larger than Mt. Everest. Because you're butt hurt, you're crapping all over every move that Vrabel made while ignoring reality.

 

[DaBruinz]

God, I hated the BBDB approach. At times it is effective, but mostly it is death by paper cut. I can't wait to see the Patriots playing a more attacking style.

You hated the team having top 10 defenses in terms of points allowed, turnovers, and wins? Have you even looked at the defenses that Vrabel had in Tennessee? His defenses were top 10 just twice in 6 years. His Houston Defense was last in the league in points allowed. f

The Pats had a top 10 defense in terms of points allowed 18 times from 2000 - 2023.. That was 3 out of every 4 years. That's what helped get the Pats to 9 SBs and 6 SB wins.

The problem with this attacking style is that it's feast or famine. That's shown by the 5 times that Vrabel's defenses weren't top 10, not only did they give up points, but they were bottom half of the league in yards allowed..

Let me put it a different way. Vrabel hasn't had a defense give up fewer than 300 points in a season. Ever. The Pats defenses did it 9 times. 6 of which came AFTER Polian and the Point of Emphasis BS. Vrabel's teams have allowed, on average, over 350 points a season and over 21.47 Points allowed per game.

I'd much rather have the "Bend, Don't Break" with under 20 Points Allowed per game with a high number of turnovers. It's much more demoralizing to opposing teams..

 

[patfanken]

lol. Ken, “ sand in the pants is an old cliche” draftniks use to describe prospects who either do or don’t have a big ass/ legs. I was joking about it.

It’s also been used to describe either having or not having any balls.

Basically Ken I think the Draft leads to paralysis by analysis, and people get so caught up in metrics, both good and bad, that whether the guy can play or not gets lost in the shuffle.

Thanks for the quick reply.

Upon a second reading I kind of thought you might be doing a little tongue in cheek posting, but you pulled it off with such complete conviction that I couldn't help but wonder about its reality. Fortunately, based on some of the later responses, I wasn't the only one you got over on.

I AM familiar with the term SITP and what it means. It was commonplace even in the 60's and 70's. Personally, I had no SITP. My wife loved my skinny ass. But I did have huge thighs which cause a lot of problems getting pants when I was young.
So many different body types.

But OL blocking is so much different now. In my day the object of passblocking was to put your face in the middle your opponents' numbers and keep your ass between you and the QB and lead him to take an outside path to the QB. You literally couldn't extend your arms forward. Now you want to extend your arms in order to keep the rusher off your body.

The issue of arm length comes when people try and figure who is going to be able to make contact first. The OT with his "punch" or the DE/OLB. The fear is that with his short wingspan the rushers will get to Campbell before he can get to him. Again it makes one wonder why we know the arm length and wingspan of almost every OT, we know very little about the guys who are his opponents. PLUS, this is only ONE dynamic in the pass rushing/pass blocking event.

Another thing to remember is that IIRC, as much as they pay rushers these days, even the much lamented VLowe won about 80% of his battles according to the stats. Now that still makes him terrible LT compared to the others in the league. But that SHOULD put some perspective on expectations playing the OL.

80% success gets you hate mail and a roster bubble slot for an offensive lineman and a 20% success rate gets you $30MM for a rusher. Go figure.

 

[Dec54]

Indulge me, Ro. What the **** is "sand in the pants" and how do you measure it. Sorry but until this moment, I have never heard of the "sand in the pants measurement let alone having it for others.

BTW- I need this explanation sooner rather than later. Enquiring minds need to know about SITP. Forget about Jordan/Bill. Forget about wingspan, or the latest stats on how many drops Maye put on the bathroom floor shaking off his last urination.

"Sand in the pants" - Then next 100 page discussion.

Is the sand wet or dry when measured, surely that makes a difference?

 

[Huckleberry1]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Upon a second reading I kind of thought you might be doing a little tongue in cheek posting, but you pulled it off with such complete conviction that I couldn't help but wonder about its reality. Fortunately, based on some of the later responses, I wasn't the only one you got over on.

I AM familiar with the term SITP and what it means. It was commonplace even in the 60's and 70's. Personally, I had no SITP. My wife loved my skinny ass. But I did have huge thighs which cause a lot of problems getting pants when I was young.
So many different body types.

But OL blocking is so much different now. In my day the object of passblocking was to put your face in the middle your opponents' numbers and keep your ass between you and the QB and lead him to take an outside path to the QB. You literally couldn't extend your arms forward. Now you want to extend your arms in order to keep the rusher off your body.

The issue of arm length comes when people try and figure who is going to be able to make contact first. The OT with his "punch" or the DE/OLB. The fear is that with his short wingspan the rushers will get to Campbell before he can get to him. Again it makes one wonder why we know the arm length and wingspan of almost every OT, we know very little about the guys who are his opponents. PLUS, this is only ONE dynamic in the pass rushing/pass blocking event.

Another thing to remember is that IIRC, as much as they pay rushers these days, even the much lamented VLowe won about 80% of his battles according to the stats. Now that still makes him terrible LT compared to the others in the league. But that SHOULD put some perspective on expectations playing the OL.

80% success gets you hate mail and a roster bubble slot for an offensive lineman and a 20% success rate gets you $30MM for a rusher. Go figure.

Ken, I recognize that arm length is a consideration for OT, and Campbell’s came in at 1/2 inch shorter than desired, but he’s also 6’6, 320, and one of the best athletes to ever come out at left tackle. His production at LSU was off the charts good, and he’s got the same mentality that made guys like Mankins and Hannah great, he wants to destroy anyone in his path. IMO his positives far outweigh that 1/2 inch in arm length, and I consider the “ wingspan” argument to be total ********. When tackles start playing like the Vitruvian Man then I’ll start worrying about it. One of the biggest differences between this years draft and 24’ was the attitudes of the players they are bringing in, which are, in a word, nasty, and that to me is 10X more important than fractions of metrics are. Guys like Campbell, Williams, Farmer etc… play like the next play is the last play of their career, and that’s exactly what guys like Mankins, Steve Smith Jr., and Bruschi did, and I’ll take that over Mike Mamula Metrics every day.

 

[TomPatriot]

The issue of arm length comes when people try and figure who is going to be able to make contact first. The OT with his "punch" or the DE/OLB. The fear is that with his short wingspan the rushers will get to Campbell before he can get to him. Again it makes one wonder why we know the arm length and wingspan of almost every OT, we know very little about the guys who are his opponents. PLUS, this is only ONE dynamic in the pass rushing/pass blocking event.

Beldaré did an arms length comparison between Campbell and every edge rusher he might face this season.

 

[varjao]

Unfortunately I could not find time to read all draft threads and post my opinions, time is flying high this year so I've missed the timing but that's a good question. What's left to do, for me, this whole offseason, coaching additions, philosophy, free agency and draft has been close to perfect as it can be. They addressed needs with a vision of roster building to field a competitive team right now, the resources were there, no need to do a slow rebuild , "Oh it takes three years , it takes time ro rebuild" etc...yes it takes, but with the ammo they had, they made a huge step forward. Vrabel came firing on all cylinders.

Ofensive line was a huge question mark, left tackle specially and they used a top pick for that.
For me, whats left? There are question marks still on the left side that I would like to be fixed long term, this whole left guard/center dynamics. This is extremely important, not only based on the importance of the position itself but also to allow Campbell to do his job and develop at left tackle only. If he is concerned about his assignment plus the guy on his side that could mess up the whole operation, and his development.

I don't know who the left guard is, and who will be the center, although for center, we were in scenario with a washed up David Andrews coming back from structural shoulder surgery, and no one else, and now there is this scenario of Cole Strange maybe making a move to center, Bradbury who is a experienced vet former 1st round pick, although with limitations, is an OK option better than what we had a season ago and the rookie Wilson who was the top center in the draft from a top college program.

I don't think adding Bradbury and Wilson automatically push Strange back to left guard. I like that experiment of him playing center, I think he has the skills and body for it. They should still evaluate that, center is a difficult position. I get they didn't pick up his 5th year option (who was a bad draft value at that spot but that's past anyway) but that doesn't exclude them from an extension later in the year or next free agency with an adequate contract good for both sides. Wilson may need some seasoning and play few snaps this season, and Vrabel mentioned he wants to evaluate him at LG as well.

Strange was a good LG at times, but there's the injury concerns as well, so for me, there is enough question marks over there at LG/Center, I think they have the players, it's not a question of going after talent although I wouldn't mind if they had select a good LG in the draft, but they need to figure out the starters to have some stability there. And yeah one last note, I'm hoping Owmenu is playing accordingly his contract, if there are signs he is slowing down after got paid I would move his ass asap and give a chance to a hungry rookie to take his spot.

 

[Real fan 02]

My guess at a projected 53...

OFFENSE (25)
QB (2) – Drake Maye, Josh Dobbs, Ben Wooldridge (PS),
LT (2) – Will Campbell, Marcus Bryant,
LG (2) – Cole Strange, Sidy Sow,
C (2) – Garrett Bradbury, Jared Wilson,
RG (1) – Michael Onwenu, Layden Robinson (PS),
RT (2) – Morgan Moses, Caedan Wallace, Demontrey Jacobs (PS),
TE (4) – Hunter Henry, Austin Hooper, CJ Dippre, Jaheim Bell (FB),
BIG RB (2) – Rhamondre Stevenson, Antonio Gibson,
FAST RB (2) – TreVeyon Henderson, Lan Larison,
BIG WR (2) – Stefon Diggs, Kendrick Bourne/Mack Hollins,
FAST WR (2) – Kyle Williams, DeMeer Blankumsee,
SLOT WR (2) – Demario Douglas, Efton Chism,

DEFENSE (25)
DT (4) – Christian Barmore, Khyiris Tonga, Joshua Farmer, Jahvaree Ritzie,
DE (2) – Milton Williams, Keion White,
SLB (5) – Harold Landry, Anfernee Jennings, K'Lavon Chaisson, Bradyn Swinson, Elijah Ponder,
MLB (3) – Robert Spillane, Jack Gibbens,
WLB (1) – Christian Elliss,
SS (5) – Kyle Dugger, Jabrill Peppers, Marte Mapu, Marcus Epps, Brenden Schooler,
FS (1) – Craig Woodson,
BIG CB (3) – Christian Gonzalez, Carlton Davis, Miles Battle,
SLOT CB (2) – Marcus Jones, Marcellas Dial,

SPECIAL TEAMS (3)
K (1) – Andres Borregales/Parker Romo,
P (1) – Bryce Baringer,
LS (1) – Julian Ashby,

I had a hard time deciding who would get the final OL roster spot between Wallace, Robinson and Jacobs, like I said before... whoever shows up 10-15 pounds heavier with muscle. They brought small school OL Cole Birdow in, thought they should have signed and developed him.

Choose your kicker I don't care.

One of Bourne/Hollins should make it, it should probably be Bourne but Hollins might be Josh's binkie... shades of Ferentz. Blankumsee or Webb also making it at WR is probably wishful thinking considering the failure rate among rookie WR's, but this team could use more speed there.

Wozzy,

You don't have layden Robinson making the team??

 

[Real fan 02]

Unfortunately I could not find time to read all draft threads and post my opinions, time is flying high this year so I've missed the timing but that's a good question. What's left to do, for me, this whole offseason, coaching additions, philosophy, free agency and draft has been close to perfect as it can be. They addressed needs with a vision of roster building to field a competitive team right now, the resources were there, no need to do a slow rebuild , "Oh it takes three years , it takes time ro rebuild" etc...yes it takes, but with the ammo they had, they made a huge step forward. Vrabel came firing on all cylinders.

Ofensive line was a huge question mark, left tackle specially and they used a top pick for that.
For me, whats left? There are question marks still on the left side that I would like to be fixed long term, this whole left guard/center dynamics. This is extremely important, not only based on the importance of the position itself but also to allow Campbell to do his job and develop at left tackle only. If he is concerned about his assignment plus the guy on his side that could mess up the whole operation, and his development.

I don't know who the left guard is, and who will be the center, although for center, we were in scenario with a washed up David Andrews coming back from structural shoulder surgery, and no one else, and now there is this scenario of Cole Strange maybe making a move to center, Bradbury who is a experienced vet former 1st round pick, although with limitations, is an OK option better than what we had a season ago and the rookie Wilson who was the top center in the draft from a top college program.

I don't think adding Bradbury and Wilson automatically push Strange back to left guard. I like that experiment of him playing center, I think he has the skills and body for it. They should still evaluate that, center is a difficult position. I get they didn't pick up his 5th year option (who was a bad draft value at that spot but that's past anyway) but that doesn't exclude them from an extension later in the year or next free agency with an adequate contract good for both sides. Wilson may need some seasoning and play few snaps this season, and Vrabel mentioned he wants to evaluate him at LG as well.

Strange was a good LG at times, but there's the injury concerns as well, so for me, there is enough question marks over there at LG/Center, I think they have the players, it's not a question of going after talent although I wouldn't mind if they had select a good LG in the draft, but they need to figure out the starters to have some stability there. And yeah one last note, I'm hoping Owmenu is playing accordingly his contract, if there are signs he is slowing down after got paid I would move his ass asap and give a chance to a hungry rookie to take his spot.

As i predicted, and I know it's only OTAs..

But the starters are as seen in the practices:

Campbell LT
Strange LG
Bradbury C
Ownenu RG
Moses RT


I suspect this will remain, save for injury or a performance drop off as we go along here in the offseason/mini-camp/training camp, ect.

 

[rkarp1]

As i predicted, and I know it's only OTAs..

But the starters are as seen in the practices:

Campbell LT
Strange LG
Bradbury C
Ownenu RG
Moses RT


I suspect this will remain, save for injury or a performance drop off as we go along here in the offseason/mini-camp/training camp, ect.

I am leaning this way too, but believe both Strange and Bradbury are vulnerable

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I am leaning this way too, but believe both Strange and Bradbury are vulnerable

This is most likely Onwenu's last year in NE. Moses can last 2 years at the most. The whole OL is still in flux.

 

[Wozzy]

Wozzy,

You don't have layden Robinson making the team??

I think there’s roughly one/two spots available for Robinson, Wallace or Jacobs. All three needed to get stronger. I said weeks ago whichever one of these guys arrives to camp 10-15 pounds heavier with muscle will likely take a roster spot.

I thinks it’s telling in Mike Vrabel’s opening address to the team (Forged In Foxboro) he asked Wallace to stand up, asked him if he had been working out, gotten stronger and used him as an example.

These guys were weak, too light, not strong enough… this isn’t college anymore and there’s always the practice squad.

 

[Wozzy]

As i predicted, and I know it's only OTAs..

But the starters are as seen in the practices:

Campbell LT
Strange LG
Bradbury C
Ownenu RG
Moses RT

I suspect this will remain, save for injury or a performance drop off as we go along here in the offseason/mini-camp/training camp, ect.

This ^ is their best starting lineup.

They could probably swap Sidy Sow for Strange if they think he is not the player he was before injury or his contract makes them move on. Jared Wilson now provides some depth on the interior.

 

[Wozzy]

This is most likely Onwenu's last year in NE. Moses can last 2 years at the most. The whole OL is still in flux.

If he has a good season I could see them extending him.

 

[Real fan 02]

I am leaning this way too, but believe both Strange and Bradbury are vulnerable

Bradbury is the veteran and Vrabel likes that. I've been told he was average last season, However I didn't see him get benched in Minnesota with that prolific offense. What i believe is Vrabel likely saw him as an upgrade over an aging Andrews coming off another major injury.

Bradbury is a stop gap veteran. Strange is on the clock he'll need to prove he can stay healthy and develop into an anchor at LG.

 

[Real fan 02]

I think there’s roughly one/two spots available for Robinson, Wallace or Jacobs. All three needed to get stronger. I said weeks ago whichever one of these guys arrives to camp 10-15 pounds heavier with muscle will likely take a roster spot.

I thinks it’s telling in Mike Vrabel’s opening address to the team (Forged In Foxboro) he asked Wallace to stand up, asked him if he had been working out, gotten stronger and used him as an example.

These guys were weak, too light, not strong enough… this isn’t college anymore and there’s always the practice squad.

Ok. Robinson is a G right? And I believe Wallace is a OT? I know guys play different positions on the OL but I like to see guys master one position first before going to another. I think he was trying to show Wallace in front of the team that be has belief in him and that he's behind him. Young players need that. He did seem to handle his coach though lol.

 

[Real fan 02]

This ^ is their best starting lineup.

They could probably swap Sidy Sow for Strange if they think he is not the player he was before injury or his contract makes them move on. Jared Wilson now provides some depth on the interior.

Agreed. Wilson and Brown provides depth at C. Sow got hurt in the preseason last year and the anke was more serious than we initially thought. It pretty much hampered his season. I thought Sow was pretty good when healthy. He filled in admirably for strange. Strange will need to make it though training camp injury free to have a roster spot IMO. Right now he's a starter..

 

[Real fan 02]

This is most likely Onwenu's last year in NE. Moses can last 2 years at the most. The whole OL is still in flux.

That's why the whole premises of bringing in Moses was so guys like Robinson& Wallace, Campbell can learn from him and develop into solid players by the next season or two. I'm expecting ownenu to return to form.. the mayo stench is gone.

 

[Wozzy]

Ok. Robinson is a G right? And I believe Wallace is a OT? I know guys play different positions on the OL but I like to see guys master one position first before going to another. I think he was trying to show Wallace in front of the team that be has belief in him and that he's behind him. Young players need that. He did seem to handle his coach though lol.

I don’t think Vrabel or Cowden care the least about last year’s draft class… they weren’t their players. And even Wolf admits his draft class sucked.

But everyone gets a fresh start to prove they belong. Wallace is a tackle only, Robinson is an interior player only… neither is moving around much in an optimal situation. I just think they have much stiffer competition this year than last.

Marcus Bryant is a bigger stronger version of Wallace. Jared Wilson has to get stronger as well but he is hyper athletic and bigger than Robinson.

Robinson weighed 300 pounds soaking wet, he reminds me of Josh Kline… good technician but woefully undersized. Wallace and Robinson need to show up to camp heavier and stronger.