What’s Left To Do?

[maust]

I asked him to provide a citation, said it sounded madeup.

It’s not smoke. Defense flows from the front back… basic football. A bad defensive front with little to no pressure leads to a bad backfield.

Rkarp told me James White sucked and was in danger of being cut back in 2014 because Shane Vereen was ahead of him on the depth chart. He told us last year Okorafor, Leverett and Jordan were good free agent signings on the offensive line. He makes silly proclamations all the time and time almost always proves them wrong.

You're even blowing smoke about what you posted. You did use the word 'seem' at first

Provide a citation for your stats… they seem fake.

But then in the same post there's this...

So, stop making up fake stats just because you made a silly prediction about him being cut.

@rkarp1 may or may not be mistaken about many things (or might be a genius for all I know about it) but the one being less than truthful here is you. PFR is the go to source for hard stats.

I only jumped in here because when I saw the discussion I went and looked. Those numbers rather beggared belief to the point I had to see them for myself. I did not use the link provided, I went to the site and pulled Marcus Jones numbers specifically because I had a hard time believing they were that bad but there they were. Point being I doubted it so I went and looked, which is what I'd expect most normal people would do before saying someone was 'making up fake stats'

 

[Wozzy]

You're even blowing smoke about what you posted. You did use the word 'seem' at first



But then in the same post there's this...


@rkarp1 may or may not be mistaken about many things (or might be a genius for all I know about it) but the one being less than truthful here is you. PFR is the go to source for hard stats.

I only jumped in here because when I saw the discussion I went and looked. Those numbers rather beggared belief to the point I had to see them for myself. I did not use the link provided, I went to the site and pulled Marcus Jones numbers specifically because I had a hard time believing they were that bad but there they were. Point being I doubted it so I went and looked, which is what I'd expect most normal people would do before saying someone was 'making up fake stats'

You never answered my question… if the Patriots had a near dead last pass defense last season does that mean the two starters in Gonzalez and Jon Jones sucked as well?

Keion White had arguably a down season, I bet he has a bounce back year under Vrabel. Marcus Jones isn’t bad, the defense and team was bad. This isn’t singles tennis.

 

[rkarp1]

You never answered my question… if the Patriots had a near dead last pass defense last season does that mean the two starters in Gonzalez and Jon Jones sucked as well?

Keion White had arguably a down season, I bet he has a bounce back year under Vrabel. Marcus Jones isn’t bad, the defense and team was bad. This isn’t singles tennis.

Jon Jones did suck (look at his numbers)
Gonzo was very good

I did not say Marcus Jones was a bad CB. He was a very good CB his rookie season. Last season, he was very bad. the numbers say so. my eye test says he was picked on, hunted, in order to stay away from Gonzo

 

[maust]

You never answered my question… if the Patriots had a near dead last pass defense last season does that mean the two starters in Gonzalez and Jon Jones sucked as well?

Keion White had arguably a down season, I bet he has a bounce back year under Vrabel. Marcus Jones isn’t bad, the defense and team was bad. This isn’t singles tennis.

That's weak, moving the goal posts based on something I already acknowledged (unprompted BTW)
I'm not answering jack for you until you own your own BS, not to mention you haven't asked me a question. Honestly, it is getting to the point where if you spelled poorly and made more grammatical errors I'd suspect 'Wozzy' was a cover name for another Andy sock puppet account.

 

[Ring 6]

It's a very fair question to ask. But also such a minute and nuanced thing it's hard to discuss on a message board. Kind of need visual aids to work through it. As hardcore as we/I think we are as fans this gets into a technical level that's just hard to write about at least for me.

I can't help but wonder if a slightly larger wingspan or arm length could have helped SEA when Hightower tackled Lynch just before the Butler play. Might longer arms/wingspan given the OL enough leverage to hang on a split second longer and he scores

Who on those plays extended their arms horizontally as far as they could and if they reached another inch it would have made a difference?
That’s what wingspan is. Wondering how more wingspan would have affected a block without any actual benefit from wingspan us just whistling past the pines.
OL don’t block with wingspan.

 

[Wozzy]

Jon Jones did suck (look at his numbers)
Gonzo was very good

I did not say Marcus Jones was a bad CB. He was a very good CB his rookie season. Last season, he was very bad. the numbers say so. my eye test says he was picked on, hunted, in order to stay away from Gonzo

The 2024 Patriots ran more zone defense than at any point in the two decade dynasty. You’re ascribing bad defense and scheme to otherwise good and great defenders.

From 2023 to 2024 the Patriots D went from 5th in points allowed (PPD) to 27th… but you think it’s the players, even though it’s almost the entirely same defensive personnel.

Tell me you don’t understand how football works without actually telling me.

 

[Ring 6]

BS. Numbers don't lie, people do. There's nothing at all 'vague' about these stats:



You can blow smoke all you like but a right guy would apologize for saying "So, stop making up fake stats..."
Interpret the underlying cause of those numbers as you will but they are not 'fake' or 'made up' they are right there, from an unimpeachable source. Shame on you for resorting to Andy-ish BS like 'vague'

Your obsession with me is creepy.

Why are we calling those stats bad? It’s just under 3 catches for 40 yards a game. It’s a slot corner holding receivers to less than 4 yac per catch. Not sure why someone would think that is bad.

 

[signbabybrady]

Who on those plays extended their arms horizontally as far as they could and if they reached another inch it would have made a difference?
That’s what wingspan is. Wondering how more wingspan would have affected a block without any actual benefit from wingspan us just whistling past the pines.
OL don’t block with wingspan.

You're looking at it too literal.

And I'm not saying I have a definitive answer or anything. And that's why I specifically said both arm length and wingspan. Just kind of spit balling.

I don't think you need to have your arms fully extended in order for a longer arm or wing span to help create leverage. This is where the visual aid would help.

But if I'm just lined up directly in front of you not fully extended a longer arm with equal strength as a shorter one should create more leverage. Pretty sure there's got to be some science behind that but maybe I'm completely wrong.

I get it we're talking eighths of an inch but then that's possibly the difference between Hightower stopping him or Lynch scoring. If I remember correctly it was Okung who was blocking Hightower and he had long arms but could 2 or 3 8ths of inch been a difference? I don't see how it would have hurt.

 

[rkarp1]

The 2024 Patriots ran more zone defense than at any point in the two decade dynasty. You’re ascribing bad defense and scheme to otherwise good and great defenders.

From 2023 to 2024 the Patriots D went from 5th in points allowed (PPD) to 27th… but you think it’s the players, even though it’s almost the entirely same defensive personnel.

Tell me you don’t understand how football works without actually telling me.

Marcus Jones did not play in 2023
stop already
he did not play well last year
stop the excuse making to fit your wrong narrative
own it that you are wrong. period.

 

[Real fan 02]

This is false.

As on outside CB he was wozzy.. when he's in the slot he's phenomenal...

 

[PancakeBlockPaul]

this is just to say that i accidentally chose the wrong reaction to your extremely informative post and i will never use the reaction emojis on mobile again

I’m so glad I’m not the only one that has difficulty choosing my chosen emoji…for the whole time I’ve been posting, I thought it was just me. It’s not that they’re unselectable, I just have to correct said emoji with the one I want. Maybe it’s my lack of hand-eye coordination, maybe not…Things definitely change when on mobile…Que sera sera…

 

[PancakeBlockPaul]

I’m kinda surprised no one has mentioned this before, but if they have, you have my apology. What a longer wingspan would allow an OL to do is….wait for it….HOLD. When that DE starts blowing past you to the outside, it could give you the reach to get your hand on him (and hold) until you properly get in front of him. Which none of this should be happening in the first place. Got my flame ******ant suit on so….flame away!

 

[BobDigital]

God, I hated the BBDB approach. At times it is effective, but mostly it is death by paper cut. I can't wait to see the Patriots playing a more attacking style.

BBDB is gone and i don't think it is coming back any time soon in the NFL. It had its time and served its purpose. Really from 1990-2010 was the heyday of bend but don't break. The time when it could REALLY work for you. Offenses at that point had become a bit stagnant and predictable. Defenses could still get away with lighting you up for the most part and QBs weren't as protected as they are now especially while they did non-traditional QB things.

But as offenses became more tricky, multidimensional and more improvisational it really started to show make it an nonviable. Yeah it could still work vs middling offenses okay. But elite ones would find a way to break through. We saw the Patriots realize this and change to a more coverage based defense. Emphasis man, but keep safeties back still and contain in the pocket. It was still a version of BBDB but it needed higher skill to carry out. A Talib/Revis/Gilmore type player and solid #2 behind them as well as a reliable nickel became mandatory. However since you were in man it would break a bit more often than before, but still manageable.

However now you have QBs who are true double threats and can break contain for good yardage even when you play back and buy a lot of time until their guys come open if you don't get after them. Add in a little less structure and more 'school yard' style ball and suddenly BBDB breaks down entirely as it was never designed to stop something so multifacitated and fluild.

We saw in the 2nd dynasty run of the Patriots how our offense often needed to go out and score a lot of points at least once if not twice in the playoffs even with supposed elite Ds cause they could break our bend even with often good coverage.

The Pats full transition to what i guess you call the Vrabel style D of attacking and voilence is past due. The only way to play offenses as they are now is to attack them. Make them be percise quickly. Don't give those QBs the chance to buy time and run around or try to contain them only for them to break contain in the end and run for first down on a 3rd and 7 anyway cause your LB was too slow and playing too far back cause he was afraide to lose the angle.

Attack and risk losing. On the upside you will force more mistakes and when you do get stops they will likely not take so long giving your offense more and better opportunities. Not to mention sometimes the D can score points by itself or at least give you a free FG chance without the O having to do anything.

 

[DaBruinz]

Wozzy,

You don't have layden Robinson making the team??

Why would anyone have Layden Robinson making the team. He was, arguably, the 2nd worst O-lineman on the team last year. And that includes being worse than the guys they let go like Michael Jordan.

 

[DaBruinz]

I think there’s roughly one/two spots available for Robinson, Wallace or Jacobs. All three needed to get stronger. I said weeks ago whichever one of these guys arrives to camp 10-15 pounds heavier with muscle will likely take a roster spot.

I thinks it’s telling in Mike Vrabel’s opening address to the team (Forged In Foxboro) he asked Wallace to stand up, asked him if he had been working out, gotten stronger and used him as an example.

These guys were weak, too light, not strong enough… this isn’t college anymore and there’s always the practice squad.

I would be shocked if Jacobs makes the team. Particularly over Wallace. Jacobs made Brandon Gorin look like an All-Pro.

 

[DaBruinz]

Nate bulked up from his rookie to sophomore season, he showed up visibly heavier and stronger. Also not for nothing, Solder was a freak athlete, his only weakness was upper body strength… Wallace and Robinson not so much.

Solder was 305 when the Pats drafted him and was listed at 315 for his playing weight. He was over 6'8..

 

[DaBruinz]

I too have some concerns at CB.
Davis has been injury prone.
Marcus Jones has been very uneven. he was picked on (successfully) a lot last year.
team is perhaps S heavy and CB light.

Where do you get that Marcus Jones was picked on?

The Team currently has 9 corners on the roster. 10 if you count Isaiah Bolden.

They have Gonzalez, Davis, Austin, Marcus Jones, Marcellus Dial, DJ James, Miles Battle, Brandon Crossley and Kobee Minor. Bolden would make 10.

Of those, Gonzalez, Davis, and Marcus Jones are locks. Alex Austin and Marcellus Dial have their work cut out for them, but Dial was on 84% of the ST snaps last year, so that likely gives him an inside track. Same with Austin.

I've mentioned what makes Battle and James intriguing in another thread.. Both are extremely athletic.


CB was one of the areas that there were a lot of FAs this past off-season. I think it's telling that he didn't bring in anyone else but Davis. I think that it speaks to the confidence he has in that area of the team.

 

[DaBruinz]

I said you were wrong that Marcus Jones was poor in coverage and he got picked on. The entire backfield was one of the worst in the league and arguably had the best CB in the entire NFL in Gonzalez and a perennial stud in Jon Jones starting. Stats can be misleading. A bad unit doesn’t equate to bad individual players, it’s a team sport.

Agreed. People forget that the D-Line getting pressure on the QB (or not) also affects the secondary. With the return of Barmore and the additions of Williams and Landry, the team should get more pressure on the QB.

I am praying that Woodson is the Field General that this team has been missing since McCourty retired. I have seen nothing from Dugger or Peppers that says that they can make the Pre-snap reads needed to adjust the defensive backfield.

In regards to Marcus Jones. He had 385 coverage snaps and was targeted 63 times and gave up 38 receptions with 10 PD (60.3% allowed)
Christian Gonzalez had 563 coverage snaps. He was targeted 84 times and gave up 46 completions with 11 PD. (54.7% allowed)
Jon Jones had 425 coverage snaps. He was targeted 52 times and gave up 39 receptions with 6 PD. (75% allowed)
Alex Austin had 131 coverage snaps. He was targeted 19 times and gave up 9 receptions with 5 PD. (47.4%)


I think that @rkarp1 in confused about which of the Jones was bad in coverage last year.

The area of concern amongst the CBs is with injuries. All of Gonzalez, M, Jones, Austin and Carlton Davis have missed significant time over the previous 2 years.

NOTE: The Snap counts, targets and receptions were taken from PFF. The PDs were taken from Pro-Football Reference.

Note: I was incorrect in saying 60 targets for Marcus Jones. He was targeted 63 times.

 

[Vindicate]

Where do you get that Marcus Jones was picked on?

The Team currently has 9 corners on the roster. 10 if you count Isaiah Bolden.

They have Gonzalez, Davis, Austin, Marcus Jones, Marcellus Dial, DJ James, Miles Battle, Brandon Crossley and Kobee Minor. Bolden would make 10.

Of those, Gonzalez, Davis, and Marcus Jones are locks. Alex Austin and Marcellus Dial have their work cut out for them, but Dial was on 84% of the ST snaps last year, so that likely gives him an inside track. Same with Austin.

I've mentioned what makes Battle and James intriguing in another thread.. Both are extremely athletic.


CB was one of the areas that there were a lot of FAs this past off-season. I think it's telling that he didn't bring in anyone else but Davis. I think that it speaks to the confidence he has in that area of the team.

Marcus Jones Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft, College | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats for Marcus Jones. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, college, draft, and more on Pro-football-reference.com.

www.pro-football-reference.com

His numbers weren't great for last season, but they probably were more infuriating than normal given how everyone not named Gonzo had a bad year.

63% catch rate on 65 targets is kinda rough.

 

[Vindicate]

Agreed. People forget that the D-Line getting pressure on the QB (or not) also affects the secondary. With the return of Barmore and the additions of Williams and Landry, the team should get more pressure on the QB.

I am praying that Woodson is the Field General that this team has been missing since McCourty retired. I have seen nothing from Dugger or Peppers that says that they can make the Pre-snap reads needed to adjust the defensive backfield.

In regards to Marcus Jones. He had 385 coverage snaps and was targeted 60 times and gave up 38 receptions with 10 PD (63.3% allowed)
Christian Gonzalez had 563 coverage snaps. He was targeted 84 times and gave up 46 completions with 11 PD. (54.7% allowed)
Jon Jones had 425 coverage snaps. He was targeted 52 times and gave up 39 receptions with 6 PD. (75% allowed)
Alex Austin had 131 coverage snaps. He was targeted 19 times and gave up 9 receptions with 5 PD. (47.4%)


I think that @rkarp1 in confused about which of the Jones was bad in coverage last year.

The area of concern amongst the CBs is with injuries. All of Gonzalez, M, Jones, Austin and Carlton Davis have missed significant time over the previous 2 years.

NOTE: The Snap counts, targets and receptions were taken from PFF. The PDs were taken from Pro-Football Reference.

Lol took me too long to find the stats so my post feels redundant.