Welker was never coming to the patriots

[ausbacker]

I consider E Smith the elite RB of that generation. Barry Sanders I'd describe as the best RB never to win a SB.

In my opinion, that's an incredibly naive way to rate the performance of a player given the lack of team success. In my opinion, both were elite Running Backs.

In today's environment, does that mean you believe Ray Rice to be a better Running Back than Adrian Peterson given your qualification?

 

[Bruins29]

I will simply put the loser a-holes who trash Welker on ignore because that's where they really belong.

That is s real mature way to deal with it. I personally think that using the ignore feature for anyone other than pure trolls is just for babies.

Also, who is trashing WW. And why do you feel you need to be WWs representative here? You seem to take this whole thing awfully personally? Are you WW?

 

[Ring 6]

You're all over the place. I just said the same thing and you challenged it as a matter of me saying you don't care about winning when i actually said nothing of the sort, i said the wisdom of the decision will be borne out by the results next season.

No, you seem to be mixing up your arguments.
I said the Patriots made the move they felt was best for the team.
You said they didn't publicly state that and acted like they wanted Welker.
I said I don't care about the media or spin.
You said, wait til they lose in the playoffs.

We were discussing that the media relations mattered to you and not to me and you decided to put wanting to win on your side of the argument to try to change and artificially strengthen it.
My point stands. What was said in the media is meaningless, and the decision was about winning, right or wrong.

You are also saying you don't care about the PR of it but jumped into a discussion of just that. Bottom line on that to me is that Kraft lied, you can respect that, i don't. At this point I'm basically done with it, I will simply put the loser a-holes who trash Welker on ignore because that's where they really belong.

I don't know if Kraft lied, and I don't care. Bob Krafts honesty, morality, religion, humanitarism, sexual orientation, politics, etc mean nothing to me.
What he does to affect the team winning is all that matters to me. I do not root for Bob Kraft I root for the New England Patriots (I do appreciate the job he has done).
If lying to the media means we win more, I encourage him to lie. If it means we win less, I would like him to not.

 

[Sciz]

I will simply put the loser a-holes who trash Welker on ignore because that's where they really belong.

Does this include the people who say he's only worth $6M a year and not $10M?

 

[VJCPatriot]

In 2013, all the hype was that there were considerable negotiations before free agency started and that Welker was almost a lock to stay. Obviously, that was utter nonsense. On the first day of free agency, Welker was offered 2/20 or the team would sign a player that night, player who has missed more than half his games over the past two years.

I think you've got your numbers wrong. If Welker was offered 2/20 he would have signed on the dotted line right away. Heck, I think even 2/15 guaranteed would have gotten it done.

Instead he got lowballed with a 2/10 offer, although to be fair, incentives would have pushed it to 2/16. I think Welker's agent advised him against taking it and he took 2/12 with Denver instead because his pride got wounded.

Dan Marino was overrated. Not because he doesn't have a ring, but because he is considered great and a large part of the argument is that he did it all on his own. However, the excuse for him not winning is that he had to do it all on his own. The bottom line is that Marino played poorly in the games that his team was eliminated in, overall, and almost every time. His play was why they lost.
Wes Welker's play was not why the Patriots lost, in fact, without him, they wouldn't have gotten near where they did.

Tossing out the rings argument as you said, we still have to face facts. And welker had some bad drops during the superbowl losses that could well have been the difference between winning and losing. If Marino gets rightly blamed for playing poorly when his team was eliminated, well Welker is not exempt from that either. His hands failed us when the spotlight shone the brightest. That he was even in position to make those catches speaks to his talent. But the fact that he ultimately didn't reel those in, well that separates very good from GREAT.

I guess the Pats were ready to move on from Welker. Actions speak louder than words. And as fans it looks like we'll need to do the same.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

You're all over the place. I just said the same thing and you challenged it as a matter of me saying you don't care about winning when i actually said nothing of the sort, i said the wisdom of the decision will be borne out by the results next season.

You are also saying you don't care about the PR of it but jumped into a discussion of just that. Bottom line on that to me is that Kraft lied, you can respect that, i don't. At this point I'm basically done with it, I will simply put the loser a-holes who trash Welker on ignore because that's where they really belong.

Since WW is gone and that is not changing, you should be happy at this point. Just think, as the Patriots falter you can sit there and say I told you so, re-post all the hate toward Kraft and BB, and really just take your Patriots fandom in an interesting and unique direction -- kind of a 'love-hate on crank' kind of thing.
I'm one of the ones you should put on ignore. It'll hurt at first but I'll pull myself up by the boot straps and find a way to keep going.

 

[Joker]

Milloy is never coming back and they hate their coach...

SSDD....

 

[Nunchucks]

Milloy is never coming back and they hate their coach...

SSDD....

I was more annoyed when they traded Seymour.

 

[Brady6]

You can't have it both ways. By your standard Brady and BB have sucked for 8 years.
Your argument is lame becuase it assumes all 53 players on the winning team are better than all 53 on the losing team.
The argument is reasonable for QBs, because they have so much to do with winning and losing.
You simply cannot hold not winning a SB against a player who was one of the greatest of all time because he wasn't on a team that was good enough.

Deacon Jones may have have been the best DE ever. He was unblockable. If you put him on any SB winning team, they would have still won the SB. He may have elevate some that didn't if you could put him there.
John Hannah was maybe the best OG of all time. There is no question that every team that won the SB during his career still would have with him at LG.
Champ Bailey was one of the greatest corners of all time. For the majority of his career (maybe not at the end) every SB winning team would have won if he was their starting corner.
The list goes on and on.
It is a team game. You can be the best ever to play the game at your position and not win a SB because of the players you are teamed with. As with anything trying to replace reason and thought with a hard and fast ignorant rule of thumb is foolhardy. Here you fail.

I value winning as much as anyone. But you have to use your brain.

Dan Marino was overrated. Not because he doesn't have a ring, but because he is considered great and a large part of the argument is that he did it all on his own. However, the excuse for him not winning is that he had to do it all on his own. The bottom line is that Marino played poorly in the games that his team was eliminated in, overall, and almost every time. His play was why they lost.
Wes Welker's play was not why the Patriots lost, in fact, without him, they wouldn't have gotten near where they did.

I find your viewpoint as valid and respect it. I just feel differently because I feel winners find a way to win and if a player lacks the will to win its hard for me to consider him elite.

I do disagree with your statement that Welker never cost us a game, had he caught that pass in the SB mathematically we had a 95% chance of winning. Add to that the fact his YPC in the playoffs drop below 10.0.

In our 4 regular season losses Welker averaged 107.75 yards and 15.4 YPC with 67.9% of his catches resulting in a 1st down compared to 76.6 yards and 10.3 YPC with 58.9% of his catches resulting in a 1st down these stats only further indicate that Welker's statistical dominance did not translate into victories for the team.

 

[Ring 6]

I think you've got your numbers wrong. If Welker was offered 2/20 he would have signed on the dotted line right away. Heck, I think even 2/15 guaranteed would have gotten it done.

Instead he got lowballed with a 2/10 offer, although to be fair, incentives would have pushed it to 2/16. I think Welker's agent advised him against taking it and he took 2/12 with Denver instead because his pride got wounded.



Tossing out the rings argument as you said, we still have to face facts. And welker had some bad drops during the superbowl losses that could well have been the difference between winning and losing. If Marino gets rightly blamed for playing poorly when his team was eliminated, well Welker is not exempt from that either. His hands failed us when the spotlight shone the brightest. That he was even in position to make those catches speaks to his talent. But the fact that he ultimately didn't reel those in, well that separates very good from GREAT.

I guess the Pats were ready to move on from Welker. Actions speak louder than words. And as fans it looks like we'll need to do the same.

There were not dropS, there was 1. We would not have been close to in position to win the SB without him. The difference is Marino playing poorly in big games vs Welker failing to make one single catch.

 

[Ring 6]

I find your viewpoint as valid and respect it. I just feel differently because I feel winners find a way to win and if a player lacks the will to win its hard for me to consider him elite.

Lacks the will to win?

I do disagree with your statement that Welker never cost us a game, had he caught that pass in the SB mathematically we had a 95% chance of winning. Add to that the fact his YPC in the playoffs drop below 10.0.

I said Wes Welkers play was not why we lost. We would not have been in postion for him to make a game sealing catch without him.

In our 4 regular season losses Welker averaged 107.75 yards and 15.4 YPC with 67.9% of his catches resulting in a 1st down compared to 76.6 yards and 10.3 YPC with 58.9% of his catches resulting in a 1st down these stats only further indicate that Welker's statistical dominance did not translate into victories for the team.

That is among the most inaccurate conclusions I have ever read.

 

[Brady6]

Lacks the will to win?


I said Wes Welkers play was not why we lost. We would not have been in postion for him to make a game sealing catch without him.


That is among the most inaccurate conclusions I have ever read.

Has he ever won? Did he leave his best chance to win to go play 3rd fiddle for a QB who's head could fall off at any moment?

 

[Brady6]

That is among the most inaccurate conclusions I have ever read.

Those stats are inaccurate?

 

[RobertWeathers]

I value winning as much as anyone. But you have to use your brain.

Dan Marino was overrated. Not because he doesn't have a ring, but because he is considered great and a large part of the argument is that he did it all on his own. However, the excuse for him not winning is that he had to do it all on his own. The bottom line is that Marino played poorly in the games that his team was eliminated in, overall, and almost every time. His play was why they lost.
Wes Welker's play was not why the Patriots lost, in fact, without him, they wouldn't have gotten near where they did.

This doesn't make sense, Andy.

You could also say that from 83 to 98 they would not have played in 19 playoff games if he were not the QB. However, if Mario had more talent around and better FO and coaching, (defense, running game) they might have won a SB...Who knows.

Was Marino a great passer? I think so. When compared to Brady & Montana is he beyond a great downfield passer a great winning, championship QB? Of course not.

 

[flasox27]

The indisputable bottom line is that the Pats won ZERO Lombardis while he was with the team and in the last two years his inability to make the crucial catch was the contributing factor to the loss. He as the greatest regular season slot receiver is a perfect match for the greatest regular season quarterback. Lets see how they perform in January when it really counts.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

This doesn't make sense, Andy.

You could also say that from 83 to 98 they would not have played in 19 playoff games if he were not the QB. However, if Mario had more talent around and better FO and coaching, (defense, running game) they might have won a SB...Who knows.

Was Marino a great passer? I think so. When compared to Brady & Montana is he beyond a great downfield passer a great winning, championship QB? Of course not.

Its been said by many people Matino butted heads with Shula who wanted to run the ball more and provide a more balanced offense but Dan always got his way especially since he was the guy who controlled the ball. If Marino would have let Shula coach the way he wanted they might have won a SB. I think thats what Andy's saying and I agree with him.

 

[strngplyr]

Has he ever won? Did he leave his best chance to win to go play 3rd fiddle for a QB who's head could fall off at any moment?

Welker took a risk to get us to sweeten our deal, he didn't anticipate we'd move on so quickly.

Welker will be the #2 option in Denver, much like he was for us in 2007. Welker will take Decker's snaps, not the other way around. Thomas and Welker are now the #1/2, Decker becomes #3.

Manning looked good last season, and looked better as time went on for much of it. Yes, they terrorized lower talent, but that's helped make Brady, Montana, and Marino all look great through their careers too.

Point is, Welker accepted the worst deal left available to him o play for a contender once NE shut the door on him, he could have made a few mil more to play for Tennessee but he still wanted to win. If it was all about money, and not winning, why is he playing for Denver instead of Tennessee, why did he still try to come back to NE?

 

[flasox27]

What makes you think WW will be the second option. Decker is bigger, stronger, faster and has an established rapport with Manning. Essentially, Welker is an upgraded version of Stokely in their offense since they have no tight ends to speak of.
While Welker had the choice of two quality teams to choose from this year, he may not next year when he counts against the cap for $8million and Elway has to sign Thomas and Decker.

 

[strngplyr]

What makes you think WW will be the second option. Decker is bigger, stronger, faster and has an established rapport with Manning. Essentially, Welker is an upgraded version of Stokely in their offense since they have no tight ends to speak of.
While Welker had the choice of two quality teams to choose from this year, he may not next year when he counts against the cap for $8million and Elway has to sign Thomas and Decker.

When it comes to the NFL, "bigger, faster, and stronger" do not equal better. Decker's best season, in which he caught passes from Peyton Manning, looks average compared to what Welker has done in New England.

Welker is always open because he is smarter than the defense. Manning will discover that pretty quickly, he's the only other player in the league on Brady's level when it comes to intelligence. Manning will rely on him to pickup those crucial 3rd downs.

You also make it sound like his "established rapport" with Manning was something he worked over his entire career to establish, it came in Manning's first season back after missing a year. Why don't you think Welker establish a rapport just as quickly with Manning?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Its been said by many people Matino butted heads with Shula who wanted to run the ball more and provide a more balanced offense but Dan always got his way especially since he was the guy who controlled the ball. If Marino would have let Shula coach the way he wanted they might have won a SB. I think thats what Andy's saying and I agree with him.

Yep I heard the same thing. If that was Andy's assertion then I 100% agree.

Shula certainly spent high draft choices on RBs in the Marino era (Hampton in '85, Sammie Smith in '89) but in this case, because Marino had established himself as a top passer and Joe Robbie binki, Shula had little leverage.