We Need A Nickel/Slot Defensive Back

[maineman209]

Just like how a lot people said regardless of his play in the SB Butler wasn't good enough to replace Revis as the #1 CB?? and that Logan Ryan was absolute **** that needed to be replaced. Yet here we are 2 years later with Butler and Ryan winning SB rings as the #1 and #2 CB

But ya let's write Cyrus and Jonathan off because they didn't come in as rookies to a defensive system that was different from what they did in college and excel their first year. Idiotic logic.


I recall a guy by the name of Dont'a Hightower who people said sucked and was a complete bust after his first year.



Oh and there was a guy by the name of Trey Flowers who was active for 1 game his rookie year and was deemed "Jake Bequette 2.0"

Flowers was one of my binkies that draft. I nearly fell off the couch when BB selected him because he almost never takes my binkies in their draft year. In fact, BB drafting Flowers makes my record something like 1 for 385.

 

[maineman209]

Coleman had 227 snaps on defense in 2016 versus 65 on ST. He played 66% of the defensive snaps in wk-1, and 90% in wk-2, but sat wk-3 and didn't top 42% again until wk-9 (SEA, 63%). After wk-9 he saw only 4 more defensive snaps total.

His usage pattern was similar in his rookie year, 2015. He played 272 of his 300 defensive snaps from wk-3 through wk-9, averaging about 60% of the defensive snaps in those games with a low of 24% (wk-5) and a high of 95% (wk-8). After wk-9, he saw nothing on defense again until wk-15 (35%).

Cy Jones had 147 snaps on defense, 51 on ST (which includes return attempts). He was used for 47% of the defensive snaps in wk-3, apparently replacing Coleman, and then for 29% in wk-5 (CLE). He didn't see any defensive snaps again until wk-12 (Rams, 35%) and wk-13 (Ravens, 69%).

Coleman and Cy Jones were active only 10 games each in 2016.

Jon Jones had only 64 total defensive snaps versus 307 on ST. Half of Jones' 64 defensive snaps came in wk-5 (CLE, 51% of defensive snaps). The rest came as "token" snaps at the end of the games in wks 13, 14 & 15.

OTOH, Jon Jones was active all 16 games, averaging 19 ST snaps per game, fourth most among all special teamers.

There are a lot of different ways to interpret the defensive usage patterns for Coleman and Cy Jones, but it seems to me that Jon Jones isn't in the conversation at this point for a significant role in the 2017 defense unless he makes a dramatic year-2 leap.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Cyrus Jones, Justin Coleman, Jonathan Jones. Butler can play nickel too if he is on the team.

Sure but they are not paying Malcolm $13m to be a nickel CB

 

[TommyD4207]

Sure but they are not paying Malcolm $13m to be a nickel CB

They're not paying Butler $13m this year, regardless.

 

[Kontradiction]

None of them are any good. The Pats need someone new there.

I don't think we can say with any level of certainty that Cyrus Jones is not any good just yet. He was god awful in the return game but, defensively, I don't think he looked terrible just yet. There's definitely room to grow, but he has the pedigree for the job. He played in a very similar system in college. He was drafted that high with a plan in mind and the nickel role is probably it. He'll be given every opportunity to earn that role.

 

[Nunchucks]

I am betting one of the Jones guys wins the job in camp.

 

[maineman209]

I don't think we can say with any level of certainty that Cyrus Jones is not any good just yet. He was god awful in the return game but, defensively, I don't think he looked terrible just yet. There's definitely room to grow, but he has the pedigree for the job. He played in a very similar system in college. He was drafted that high with a plan in mind and the nickel role is probably it. He'll be given every opportunity to earn that role.

Logan Ryan began last season as the starting RCB. After Rowe was acquired, he alternated between RCB and the slot (as did Rowe). But I'm not sure it's correct to consider Ryan's contributions a "nickel" role - as in merely the third CB on the field when called for by specific defensive packages.

Ryan actually played 86% of all defensive snaps in 2016, and his snap percentages did NOT decrease after Rowe was acquired. In fact, he played 100% of the defensive snaps in three of the last four weeks of the regular season, and 79% in wk-15 (NYJ, when Coleman saw his last significant defensive snaps of the season).

Whoever takes Ryan's place as the Pats "slot guy", he's going to need to be able to play edge contain against the run and tackle very well. Ryan led the Pats in 2016 with 92 total tackles, 73 of them solo.

 

[Tunescribe]

I don't think we can say with any level of certainty that Cyrus Jones is not any good just yet. He was god awful in the return game but, defensively, I don't think he looked terrible just yet. There's definitely room to grow, but he has the pedigree for the job. He played in a very similar system in college. He was drafted that high with a plan in mind and the nickel role is probably it. He'll be given every opportunity to earn that role.

He had seven tackles (three solo, four assists) and zero passes defensed in only 147 defensive snaps last season. He was inactive for nine games (including playoffs). That's terrible production for a second-round pick. I hope he has a good off-season because he really needs to turn it around.

 

[maineman209]

He had seven tackles (three solo, four assists) and zero passes defensed in only 147 defensive snaps last season. He was inactive for nine games (including playoffs). That's terrible production for a second-round pick. I hope he has a good off-season because he really needs to turn it around.

Cy Jones saw significant defensive snaps in only four games. OTOH, Coleman (a 2nd-year player) had 227 defensive snaps (down from 300 in 2015) with significant percentages in 8 games in 2016. While he had 3 PDs, he also had only 8 tackles.

 

[mgteich]

Logan Ryan began last season as the starting RCB. After Rowe was acquired, he alternated between RCB and the slot (as did Rowe). But I'm not sure it's correct to consider Ryan's contributions a "nickel" role - as in merely the third CB on the field when called for by specific defensive packages.

Ryan actually played 86% of all defensive snaps in 2016, and his snap percentages did NOT decrease after Rowe was acquired. In fact, he played 100% of the defensive snaps in three of the last four weeks of the regular season, and 79% in wk-15 (NYJ, when Coleman saw his last significant defensive snaps of the season).

Whoever takes Ryan's place as the Pats "slot guy", he's going to need to be able to play edge contain against the run and tackle very well. Ryan led the Pats in 2016 with 92 total tackles, 73 of them solo.

Ryan was our starting CB. When a nickel was needed, he moved to nickel, and Rowe came in to play outside.

Butler could play this role in 2017, where he could play 100% of the offensive reps.

There is nothing wrong with the first man off the bench being an outside corner.

I'm fine with this scenario. What I was trying to spotlight is that the great need if we lose Butler is NOT at outside corner; Rowe is OK there. The need is at nickel. Of course, there are those here who are believers in Cy Jones or in Coleman (#4 and #5 last year and perhaps this year as well).

 

[maineman209]

Ryan was our starting CB. When a nickel was needed, he moved to nickel, and Rowe came in to play outside.

Butler could play this role in 2017, where he could play 100% of the offensive reps.

There is nothing wrong with the first man off the bench being an outside corner.

I'm fine with this scenario. What I was trying to spotlight is that the great need if we lose Butler is NOT at outside corner; Rowe is OK there. The need is at nickel. Of course, there are those here who are believers in Cy Jones or in Coleman (#4 and #5 last year and perhaps this year as well).

Agree. As long as the Pats end up with enough moveable chess pieces - guys who are highly capable of handling more than one of the three roles - the secondary will have the versatility to allow for a wide range of matchup coverages and adjustments.

 

[Edelmania]

Sure but they are not paying Malcolm $13m to be a nickel CB

There not paying Malcolm 13m at all... plus I think what they do is based more on matchups than anything else. Butler played 200-something snaps in the slot last year

 

[Kontradiction]

He had seven tackles (three solo, four assists) and zero passes defensed in only 147 defensive snaps last season. He was inactive for nine games (including playoffs). That's terrible production for a second-round pick. I hope he has a good off-season because he really needs to turn it around.

Who was he supposed to leapfrog in the line-up as a rookie? Ryan? Rowe? That he saw defensive snaps at all is a miracle. Giving up on him this early would be ill advised. That said, CB is still a need in the draft, regardless of what happens with Butler, if only for depth purposes.

 

[ivanvamp]

Cyrus Jones, Justin Coleman, Jonathan Jones. Butler can play nickel too if he is on the team.

My impression was that Jonathan Jones did a pretty decent job for them last year. And that Cyrus Jones did far better as a DB than he did as a return man (though, of course, that's not really saying much).

 

[Tunescribe]

Who was he supposed to leapfrog in the line-up as a rookie? Ryan? Rowe? That he saw defensive snaps at all is a miracle. Giving up on him this early would be ill advised. That said, CB is still a need in the draft, regardless of what happens with Butler, if only for depth purposes.

I'm not suggesting he should've supplanted a starter, I'm saying he should've shown sufficient ability to warrant more snaps in rotation. He was disappointing both on defense and special teams. I'm not giving up on him, but the pressure is on this kid.

 

[maineman209]

My impression was that Jonathan Jones did a pretty decent job for them last year. And that Cyrus Jones did far better as a DB than he did as a return man (though, of course, that's not really saying much).

IDK. Jon Jones only had the one game (wk-5, CLE) where he had significant snaps on defense - 32 out of his season total of 64. OTOH, he had 307 ST snaps, 4th highest on the Pats.

 

[luuked]

I'm fine with this scenario. What I was trying to spotlight is that the great need if we lose Butler is NOT at outside corner; Rowe is OK there. The need is at nickel. Of course, there are those here who are believers in Cy Jones or in Coleman (#4 and #5 last year and perhaps this year as well).

Not sure what there is to highlight. People have been pointing this out for 2 weeks now but the majority in this forum doesn't even know the difference between an outside or inside corner.

Cyrus Jones will be our inside corner this year unless he has a total mental breakdown in camp. He has the physical traits to be a pretty good one as well, now only his mental side has to catch up. I am more worried about Rowe being able to play the underneath stuff as well as Ryan did in double coverage than about Cyrus Jones inside. So I'd almost say that outside corner is a bigger question mark than inside - unless Butler miraculously stays - because there is a steep dropoff after Rowe.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Coleman and Cyrus Jones are the incumbents. We'll see if they sign or draft anyone else.

I wouldn't sleep on Jonathan Jones either. If you assume his godawful combine 3-cone was a fluke (and it almost has to be, I don't think a corner of his size could survive an NFL training camp if he had that little agility), he otherwise projects pretty well as a slot corner playing up at the LOS. He also looked great in the preseason, and I've liked what he's shown in the few regular season snaps he's played.

But I do think the Pats will probably look to one of those three to be the slot corner, assuming Butler's gone. As godawful a punt return as C. Jones was, I would like to see him get a real shot to win the CB3 spot this year, and get most of his work in the slot. I thought he performed reasonably well as a rookie at CB, and could see him being a real asset in the near future.

 

[BradyFTW!]

This is partly why Cy. Jones was drafted. He needs to step up big time. How rookie campaign was abysmal. It'll be an open competition for sure this summer for that role.

Also, if there is any truth to the Revis rumors, he may find a niche in the slot. It's more area to cover, but it's also more important to be quick than it is to be fast, and I don't think he's lost his short area quickness. I actually think a cheap, motivated Revis can play very well in the slot. He generally always has before.

While Jones did have a terrible rookie season, I think it's important to be a little more specific. He was one of the worst returners I've ever seen, and that's where the bulk of his work came. As a corner, I didn't think he was so bad. Fine for a rookie, IMO.

 

[PatsBoy12]

While Jones did have a terrible rookie season, I think it's important to be a little more specific. He was one of the worst returners I've ever seen, and that's where the bulk of his work came. As a corner, I didn't think he was so bad. Fine for a rookie, IMO.

I hear you. But, to me, it all ties together. He talked about losing confidence and questioning a desire to continue playing. Not only that, but he was inactive for many games. I don't think roster concerns were such that if he was playing well as a DB they'd keep him off the game day roster in favor of someone else at CB or another position.

I do agree that a bulk of his struggles were obviously ST's related, but again, I think there obviously was more to it for him to be inactive so often and for the playoffs.