We Do Not Need Any More Receivers

[upstater1]

How many safety blitzes did the Colts run? Please, if you are going to try and pick apart my reply to you, try and keep it in context.

WHy did they need to run safety blitzes when their safeties are camped out on the line? You don't need to run a blitz from there. if it's a run, you're there. If it's not, you're backpedaling. They knew that they could keep up with New England backpedaling, basically.

You're the one who said there were no 9 man fronts. I'm counting 9 in the box on multiple occasions in the AFCG on my DVR.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

The offer the Pats made Branch, prior to "bad blood" etc., was a choice between a 5 year deal and a 3 year deal. The 3 had an APY of about $6M. So yes, that amount was offered by the Pats at one point.

PFnV

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Dude, did you see the San Diego game? We need a receiver that can consistently create separation. I can't believe I’m saying this, but a Terry Glen type. We don't have one on this team, and as a result Brady (good soldier that he is) became uncharacteristically frustrated at times this year. He's the franchise, let's get him someone (by "top flight" I mean/meant someone that can get consistently open). And by the way, you can thank Brady for all those "value" receivers we've picked up, now it's time to get him a bonifide threat.

I think Bobby Engram could be our man to put in the slot. We could get him for decent money. it would add to overall depth.

 

[Seneschal2]

All offenses have their spells where they don't succeed. And that includes Peyton Manning and the Colts. If you want to look at things in a vacuum and focus on just one game, go ahead. You won't have any credibility though.

And just what was the reason behind the offense not getting things done? Was it strictly play-calling? Was it the players talent? or was it execution? If you are certain that it was any single one of those, please, go to Foxboro and tell BB what an offensive messiah you are and have him replace either the OC, the QB, or the scouts because you obviously are smarter than them.

The Pats don't need more talent on offense to have a better offense. That is what you are missing. If the Patriots work on their execution of plays, and then execute them during the game, they will be better. That include Brady hitting the open man, Caldwell, Watson, and Gaffney holding on to passes and Jackson being on the field for more than blocking on running plays. Then the Pats offense will be better.

Stallworth isn't going anywhere if you believe PatsfaninPA who lives in Philadelphia. Kevin Curtis? Drew Bennett? Really? Are you 100% certain of this? I'm not. Kevin Curtis wasn't able to supplant an old and tired Isaac Bruce this year. Don't get me wrong, I like Curtis, but what's to say he will be an UPGRADE over Gaffney or Caldwell? Bennett is a possession receiver. Has been every year with the Titans. Even when he was their #1 because Mason and McCareins were gone. Having 3 #2 type receivers wouldn't be a bad thing, but most people are talking upgrades over Caldwell and Gaffney. I just don't see a WR of that caliber being available.

What is non-sense is people saying the Pats can upgrade the offense by getting a draft pick or adding some WR whose never been in the system before. It took Deion Branch a season and a half to supplant David Patten in this offense and that is only because Patten got injured. Givens didn't move into the starting slot until 2004 on a full time basis. It took Caldwell 6 games to start making a difference consistently. Gaffney finally started making a difference as the post season came around.

So, why should I believe that any receiver out there will magically upgrade the Pats from day 1? Could it happen? Yes, anything is possible. But I don't feel its probable and I don't feel that there really are that many receivers out there who would be upgrades over Gaffney and Caldwell. Over Brown, Kight, and Childress, yes. But not necessarily Gaffney and Caldwell.

Terrific post!

 

[upstater1]

The Pats DID have problems in the passing game last year during the game against Denver. Givens had a couple of critical drops in last year's game aganst Denver. So did Branch and Brown.

I remember people talking about it afterwards.

Like I said, I'm only concerned about people disrespecting our passing game. It clogs the running lanes. A dropped pass by Branch is another problem entirely.

 

[upstater1]

Gaffney particularly came out of nowhere. I for one can not wait to see whether he's got it long term, or whether he played over his head.

Correction to my Drew Bennet rambling:

1) The Branch "bad blood" point is stipulated to, though not accepted. After all, it did drag out all pre-season, so the sides must have been moderately close. "It was widely reported" doesn't do it for me, but why belabor it. Let's accept that they were close, and that therefore they were in the 6M APY neighborhood.

2) I'll also drag in the fact that expectations within the Value system need to be adjusted upward, and will be, reflecting the cap's upward movement.

3) This one's not really a correction, so much as an expectation. The market is determined every year by who is on the market. Every year some middling starter gets paid like a pro-bowler, and the rush is on. The Pats tend to lag the market, looking for diamonds in the rough, cast-offs, etc. So I would not be surprised if he signs elsewhere for a nice chunk of change, based on hopes of a repeat of his one standout season. If this is the lay of the land, we can not compete for him.

One other point, regarding Branch: Assuming he'd established his value in the neighborhood of $5-6M APY by the Pats' reckoning, I think we have to look at part of that as an "in this system" bonus. In other words, as another poster pointed out, he's trained to be a Pats receiver, and proven he can excel in the system. This would increase his value relative to the Pats, moving him into the "upper middle class" of receivers. That's still in the range of "first among equals", not superstar. You can still consider the return on your investment good, if you are factoring in that you do not lose a year of "getting on the same page," and if you are factoring in that he really was a "Patriots type player." You pay something for those certainties -- a player might perceive it as loyalty, though I firmly believe that the Pats seldom make an altruistic personnel move.

And I am still gonna try to find out what was "widely reported," and what the source was. So there.

PFnV

Just as an FYI, borges, Tomase, Curran all wrote about the fact that Branch filed a second grievance against the Patriots alleging that Pioli and Belichick called him and told him they'd give him everything he wanted if he fired his agent. This offer violated the CBA. This grievance was officially filed in the NFL office. I have the article write in front of me, accessible now through Lexis/Nexis. It's in the Herald/ProJo/Globe archives (i.e. $$). Belichick even responded to the charge stipulating that Branch called him, not the other way around, which was an important part of the defense.

 

[upstater1]

The offer the Pats made Branch, prior to "bad blood" etc., was a choice between a 5 year deal and a 3 year deal. The 3 had an APY of about $6M. So yes, that amount was offered by the Pats at one point.

PFnV

I'm talking about the offer the Patriots made to him in early September.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

I agree, we need to at least draft a rookie for the 5th spot or potentially 6th spot (Childress/Kight/Smith/etc)

 

[maverick4]

upstater, your complaint is mostly that players stacked the box, but maybe that has to do more with McDaniels using formations where the receivers are lined up close to the offensive tackle. Also, defensive players aren't afraid to crowd the box when there's no play-action to make them pay.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

upstater, your complaint is mostly that players stacked the box, but maybe that has to do more with McDaniels using formations where the receivers are lined up close to the offensive tackle. Also, defensive players aren't afraid to crowd the box when there's no play-action to make them pay.

i think the double tight end set contributed to having the box full. and the spread 3 wr set was productive, but i think it was more the type of blocking that was utilized to run

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I'm talking about the offer the Patriots made to him in early September.

I'm not as concerned about the grievance issues, since they are in the past, in terms of establishing the "would haves." I'm concerned with offers... so I am not sure how this plays into it, unless you have offer terms along with the articles. If BB called Branch and said "I'll give you one dollar, fire your agent," the principle is the same as if he said "I'll give you all $100M of our cap this year if you fire your agent." Therefore, whatever transpired on the call, BB said Branch called him, and that was the defense.

The grievance(s) were not upheld, right? I am going by memory. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If they were not upheld, this becomes "Branch could not prove BB called. BB offered him something." Are there quotes by BB saying otherwise?

Final note: his deal in Seattle was in the $6.5M APY range (6 years, $39M.) So Seattle ponied up both longevity and high annual take, and gave the Pats a first rounder for the priviledge. Givens left for a $24 million, 5 year deal. So, these are the deals you get for sub-1000 yard, way sub 10 td seasons, if you have a Super Bowl ring. In Deion's case, he's got an MVP to brag on too. Do we really think that an average of $11 million bucks a year -- 10% of our cap room -- should have gone to these guys? Do Belichick and Pioli? I'll await the offseason... I don't think they go north of $5M APY on anybody, and that's generous. Right or wrong, I think they probably feel they dodged the bullet in the Givens and Branch scenarios, if indeed they were even considering Branch as seriously as you say.

Do the articles quote BB as saying "we said we'd give him whatever he wanted," or do they quote Branch (or Chayut, for that matter?) Sincerely curious here, have no ProJo subscription, and am amazed at my lousy memory.

PFnV

 

[DaBruinz]

WHy did they need to run safety blitzes when their safeties are camped out on the line? You don't need to run a blitz from there. if it's a run, you're there. If it's not, you're backpedaling. They knew that they could keep up with New England backpedaling, basically.

You're the one who said there were no 9 man fronts. I'm counting 9 in the box on multiple occasions in the AFCG on my DVR.

Good for you. So what you are telling me is that when the Pats ran multi-receiver sets, Brady missed his open receivers because the Colts had 9 men in the box. So, it wasn't really McDaniels fault. It was Brady's because he couldn't find the open man when the Colts put 9 in the box.


ANd, I didn't say there were NONE. But thanks for putting words in my mouth, yet again. It seems to be the only way that you can prove your point.

 

[DaBruinz]

Like I said, I'm only concerned about people disrespecting our passing game. It clogs the running lanes. A dropped pass by Branch is another problem entirely.

Miami disrespects our passing game every year. It hasn't changed the entire time that Brady has been with the team. ANd that INCLUDES times when Branch was here. So, what is your point? The Pats haven't had a receiver CONSISTENTLY create space since Terry Glenn and Shawn Jefferson were the duos on the outside.

Branch didn't CONSISTENTLY create space until his 4th year in this system when he was FINALLY healthy and was able to put up a 78 reception year. BTW, that still only averages to 5 receptions a game.

Caldwell, in his 1st year in the system with a huge "?" lining up opposite him was able to put up 61. He didn't have a David Givens type receiver opposite him until Gaffney worked his way into the starting line-up against Houston. And, even then, it wasn't until the play-offs that Gaffney had an affect.

All I am saying is that there aren't many players who would be an UPGRADE over Gaffney and Caldwell that are available. In fact, I really think that only Stallworth is available right now that would be an upgrade. Mason, Owens, and Moss could all be available, but Owens and Moss come with lots of baggage. Mason could be of interest, but I question how much of the issues in Baltimore were McNair and how much were him. I don't know because I only caught one Baltimore game this year.

 

[ATippett56]

I think Bobby Engram could be our man to put in the slot. We could get him for decent money. it would add to overall depth.

Bobby Engram just turned 34 years of age and the Patriots don't need to get any older.

 

[Patriot Missile]

I kind of like the idea of inquiring about D.Mason. I don't rate him as a star anymore but I do think he is a a good to very good quality WR. I'm not sure how he'd fit? Or if he was used right in Baltimore's offensive schemes? I just remember him having very good hands and running crisp routes.

I wonder what his worth is to some here, as far as compensation in a trade?
A 3rd rounder? 5th?

 

[PaulNEPats]

I'd rather see Jerry Porter here than Mason. Mason's getting old.

 

[Brady to Brown]

Miami disrespects our passing game every year. It hasn't changed the entire time that Brady has been with the team. ANd that INCLUDES times when Branch was here. So, what is your point? The Pats haven't had a receiver CONSISTENTLY create space since Terry Glenn and Shawn Jefferson were the duos on the outside.

Branch didn't CONSISTENTLY create space until his 4th year in this system when he was FINALLY healthy and was able to put up a 78 reception year. BTW, that still only averages to 5 receptions a game.

Caldwell, in his 1st year in the system with a huge "?" lining up opposite him was able to put up 61. He didn't have a David Givens type receiver opposite him until Gaffney worked his way into the starting line-up against Houston. And, even then, it wasn't until the play-offs that Gaffney had an affect.

All I am saying is that there aren't many players who would be an UPGRADE over Gaffney and Caldwell that are available. In fact, I really think that only Stallworth is available right now that would be an upgrade. Mason, Owens, and Moss could all be available, but Owens and Moss come with lots of baggage. Mason could be of interest, but I question how much of the issues in Baltimore were McNair and how much were him. I don't know because I only caught one Baltimore game this year.

Belichick tried to get Mason a short while ago. If Mason were avaliable why would Belichick not be interested now? Because you saw one game that he played bad in? Or because you think he is no good? Mason's wife would not move here or he would be on the team.

 

[ATippett56]

Drew Bennett would be an upgrade to our WR corp. So would Stallworth. So would Kevin Curtis.

First, Drew Bennett will probably want more money than David Givens and the Patriots will not shell out that kind of money for an unrestricted free agent wide receiver this year. Tell me why would Dante Stallworth want to leave the Eagles in the first place. Kevin Curtis looks good when the other outside receivers on the Rams are Isaac Bruce and Torry Holt.

 

[ATippett56]

I'd rather see Jerry Porter here than Mason.

Jerry Porter just graduated from the Randy Moss school of attitude.

 

[upstater1]

I'm not as concerned about the grievance issues, since they are in the past, in terms of establishing the "would haves." I'm concerned with offers... so I am not sure how this plays into it, unless you have offer terms along with the articles. If BB called Branch and said "I'll give you one dollar, fire your agent," the principle is the same as if he said "I'll give you all $100M of our cap this year if you fire your agent." Therefore, whatever transpired on the call, BB said Branch called him, and that was the defense.

The grievance(s) were not upheld, right? I am going by memory. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If they were not upheld, this becomes "Branch could not prove BB called. BB offered him something." Are there quotes by BB saying otherwise?

Final note: his deal in Seattle was in the $6.5M APY range (6 years, $39M.) So Seattle ponied up both longevity and high annual take, and gave the Pats a first rounder for the priviledge. Givens left for a $24 million, 5 year deal. So, these are the deals you get for sub-1000 yard, way sub 10 td seasons, if you have a Super Bowl ring. In Deion's case, he's got an MVP to brag on too. Do we really think that an average of $11 million bucks a year -- 10% of our cap room -- should have gone to these guys? Do Belichick and Pioli? I'll await the offseason... I don't think they go north of $5M APY on anybody, and that's generous. Right or wrong, I think they probably feel they dodged the bullet in the Givens and Branch scenarios, if indeed they were even considering Branch as seriously as you say.

Do the articles quote BB as saying "we said we'd give him whatever he wanted," or do they quote Branch (or Chayut, for that matter?) Sincerely curious here, have no ProJo subscription, and am amazed at my lousy memory.

PFnV

The grievances were dropped and everyone kissed and made up AFTER Branch was traded to Seattle. The direct quotes about the phone call came from Chayut and the lawyer handling the case, Kessler (who was once Belichick's lawyer). They directly said that Belichick offered Branch his terms if he would fire his agent. Belichick did not respond directly to this other than the Patriots saying, "Branch called Belichick." In other words, he issued a non-denial. I only got to reada this in the papers. I'm sure that if the grievance had been pursued, we'd know exactly what was said because they would have been under oath.

You could very well be right that Branch's side is lying, but then I'd wonder about the Patriots non-denial. it could also be that Belichick was just messing with him, who knows?

I just suspect that the Patriots are willing to spend cap room on a bonafide #1 receiver, and for us to continue the idea that the Patriots don't pay wideouts may be a mistake.