We could have drafted a LT who might have started in 2025

[Wozzy]

Yeah. QB as a position is overrated.

They should have drafted Davis Mills instead of Mac in 2021.

 

[Wozzy]

????? They were 13th in yards per carry, 19th in rushing yards and 26th in rushing touchdowns

This conversation is going nowhere, the facts have spoken and believing something else because you want to isn't worth arguing against.

Isaiah Pacheco led the entire NFL postseason in rushing yards, he was third in rushing yards per game.

In the Super Bowl the Chiefs offense didn't score a single TD in regulation football, don't tell me that wasn't a defensive battle.

 

[mgteich]

That offensive line and power running by Isaiah Pacheco was a big reason why last season. The run game and defense largely carried them.

and during the draft, did you have Pacheco labelled as a stud?

It is very, very easy to find player who have succeeded in every round, and also those who failed who were picked in the same round.

And it is easy to say that where a player is drafted has nothing to do with talent. After all the GM's are hopeless and are incapable of judging talent.

The reality is that a player drafted 15 spots ahead of another is much more likely to succeed in the NFL.

ANY pick could fail. ANY pick could get a top starter. Of course, this includes the 3rd pick in the draft or the last (or a 6th rounder). Any of these COULD get us a top QB, or a top LT.
===========
BOTTOM LINE
1) Players picked higher are more likely to succeed,
2) In hindsight, there will almost always be better players available if one judges by their career (or even rookie) performance. Curiously, and hopefully, that won't be the case with the #3 pick. We certainly hope that no one picked later will add more value.

 

[mgteich]

They should have drafted Davis Mills instead of Mac in 2021 coaching had not been so terrible in the past two years, I think that Jones would be in the Brissett role in 2024.

Perhaps.

Few agreed at the time. Jones was judged to be a better choice. Some of us did favor Mills.

IMO, neither QB is a top 10 QB in this league. Mills or Jones would likely have been on the roster in Brissett's role this year. BTW, and maybe Mills would have made the playoffs as a rookie, and maybe not.

Talent does indeed define the ceiling of a player. However, I believe our coaching would have doomed any QB that we drafted that year.

 

[mgteich]

Prioritizing WR over offensive tackle.

Yup, we could have drafted Paul instead of Polk, and then drafted your choice of WR at 68. Who were those p[ossibilities at 68?

Of course you would have made a trade and given 68 and a couple of more picks to HOPEFULLY move up to 50.

But let us ignore trades. Paul and who? The we can compare after the season.

 

[KCSVEN]

Football is won in the trenches is as old as time. Tom Brady and Mahomes are the best QB's in the modern age, both looked mortal and ran for their lives behind bad offensive lines. This isn't a debate. Jim Harbaugh just gave a masterclass on the line at the draft months ago before taking an offensive tackle with the 5th overall pick, and he knows what he's talking about.

In 2008, Pro Football Focus proclaimed that the Pittsburgh Steelers were one of the five worst pass-blocking offensive lines in all of football.
They rolled through the playoffs and beat the Arizona Cardinals in the Super Bowl.

The Giants had the worst offensive line in the NFL at the end of the 2011 season. There wasn’t a single offensive line that surrendered more quarterback pressures that year. Super Bowl Champs!

The evidence is overwhelming you don't need a great line to win a Super Bowl.

JIm Harbaugh? lots of Super Bowl wins there! See how he does the next few years with that approach LOL.

Tom Brady said he only needs 2 great receiver and will put up 35 points.

I'd love to know when Brady and Mahomes looked mortal.

Mahomes worst year, by far statistically was this past year, he had receivers that dropped balls all over the place, 34 drops vs Purdy having only 14, and you just said they had a great line and now you say the Chiefs had a bad line.

So far, you have no facts to back up your opinion, but you believe it because you want to.

It is a team game; a good line makes a difference like a good anything makes a difference. The QUESTION is receiver's vs line when you have a really good QB, again all the facts overwhelmingly say receivers more important than line.

 

[PatsFan2]

In 2008, Pro Football Focus proclaimed that the Pittsburgh Steelers were one of the five worst pass-blocking offensive lines in all of football.
They rolled through the playoffs and beat the Arizona Cardinals in the Super Bowl.

The Giants had the worst offensive line in the NFL at the end of the 2011 season. There wasn’t a single offensive line that surrendered more quarterback pressures that year. Super Bowl Champs!

The evidence is overwhelming you don't need a great line to win a Super Bowl.

JIm Harbaugh? lots of Super Bowl wins there! See how he does the next few years with that approach LOL.

Tom Brady said he only needs 2 great receiver and will put up 35 points.

I'd love to know when Brady and Mahomes looked mortal.

Mahomes worst year, by far statistically was this past year, he had receivers that dropped balls all over the place, 34 drops vs Purdy having only 14, and you just said they had a great line and now you say the Chiefs had a bad line.

So far, you have no facts to back up your opinion, but you believe it because you want to.

It is a team game; a good line makes a difference like a good anything makes a difference. The QUESTION is receiver's vs line when you have a really good QB, again all the facts overwhelmingly say receivers more important than line.

Well said I remember us winning Super Bowls with Tom Ashworth and Brandon Gorin at Tackle a Great QB cures a lot of deficiencies. Having Two very good Offensive Tackles is overrated.

 

[rkarp1]

In 2008, Pro Football Focus proclaimed that the Pittsburgh Steelers were one of the five worst pass-blocking offensive lines in all of football.
They rolled through the playoffs and beat the Arizona Cardinals in the Super Bowl.

The Giants had the worst offensive line in the NFL at the end of the 2011 season. There wasn’t a single offensive line that surrendered more quarterback pressures that year. Super Bowl Champs!

The evidence is overwhelming you don't need a great line to win a Super Bowl.

JIm Harbaugh? lots of Super Bowl wins there! See how he does the next few years with that approach LOL.

Tom Brady said he only needs 2 great receiver and will put up 35 points.

I'd love to know when Brady and Mahomes looked mortal.

Mahomes worst year, by far statistically was this past year, he had receivers that dropped balls all over the place, 34 drops vs Purdy having only 14, and you just said they had a great line and now you say the Chiefs had a bad line.

So far, you have no facts to back up your opinion, but you believe it because you want to.

It is a team game; a good line makes a difference like a good anything makes a difference. The QUESTION is receiver's vs line when you have a really good QB, again all the facts overwhelmingly say receivers more important than line.

you need to stop
Wozzy is allergic to facts

 

[borisman]

Yup. We could have drafted a LT instead of Polk who might have started next year, or not.

We might have drafted an OT at 68 who might have been a solid backup in 2025.

Instead, we drafted our choice of WR (Polk) and Wallace who is likely to be an OT starter THIS YEAR, and who might compete to start at LT in 2025.
==========
SHAME ON WOLF!

Can you just throw out a percentage as far as “likely to be a starter THIS YEAR”?
Just asking because training camp hasn’t started yet. Mayo and Van Pelt “likely” don’t even know.

 

[mgteich]

Can you just throw out a percentage as far as “likely to be a starter THIS YEAR”?
Just asking because training camp hasn’t started yet. Mayo and Van Pelt “likely” don’t even know.

Obviously no one knows. Folks can make their choice. Do they think that Wallace or the alternatives available at 68 is more likely to start this year, or even whether the OT's picked between 50 and 67 are more likely to start than Wallace.

If we wait until we KNOW, then there would be no thread and no board other than reporting news and transactions.

 

[Huckleberry1]

WR also got cleaned out… and this was considered a very deep draft class for offensive tackle. There were two blue chip guys left.. time and results will determine who was right or wrong.

We disagree on Paul and Suamataia, I don’t think either are “ blue chip” prospects, I think they were 2nd tier OT’s. And I think Polk was 2nd tier WR, so it was going to be a 2nd tier pick either way, and they believed they could do better by going WR in the 2nd, and then OT in the early 3rd.

 

[Real fan 02]

Yup. We could have drafted a LT instead of Polk who might have started next year, or not.

We might have drafted an OT at 68 who might have been a solid backup in 2025.

Instead, we drafted our choice of WR (Polk) and Wallace who is likely to be an OT starter THIS YEAR, and who might compete to start at LT in 2025.
==========
SHAME ON WOLF!

From what I've heard.. here, and in the Patriots coverage.. chuks is slated to start at LT In camp.. now let's see how many times judon, Uche and Jennings beat him will depend on if Wallace gets a try there... I'm just as puzzled as you and everyone else why wolf didn't draft a natural LT.. well.. here we are the roster is the roster.. camp is around the corner.. I can't wait.. I'm forced to watch red Sox news at nauesem.
..

 

[Wozzy]

and during the draft, did you have Pacheco labelled as a stud?

I rated Breece Hall and Isiah Pacheco as the two best "big" RB's in that draft class.

It is very, very easy to find player who have succeeded in every round, and also those who failed who were picked in the same round.

And it is easy to say that where a player is drafted has nothing to do with talent. After all the GM's are hopeless and are incapable of judging talent.

The reality is that a player drafted 15 spots ahead of another is much more likely to succeed in the NFL.

ANY pick could fail. ANY pick could get a top starter. Of course, this includes the 3rd pick in the draft or the last (or a 6th rounder). Any of these COULD get us a top QB, or a top LT.
===========
BOTTOM LINE
1) Players picked higher are more likely to succeed,
2) In hindsight, there will almost always be better players available if one judges by their career (or even rookie) performance. Curiously, and hopefully, that won't be the case with the #3 pick. We certainly hope that no one picked later will add more value.

This is a large word salad above, not sure where you were going with this. Draft position means nothing once players enter the NFL and begins playing.

But I know this, the universe, god, yahweh, whatever you want to call it... only makes a finite amount of 6'8 330 pound athletes in relation to six foot 200 pound guys. There's almost an endless supply of those little guys.

The Chiefs win Super Bowls because they had one of the best O-Lines in the NFL, they won one with Tyreek... and two without him. They won with Juju Smith-Schuster leading them in WR catches and yards in the regular season and playoffs. When Mahome's line wasn't as good, he ran for his life, got sacked 3-4 times and failed in the playoffs. The only common denominator here has been the talent, or lack of it along that offensive line. Linemen make it so everyone else can do their job... this isn't fantasy football.

 

[Wozzy]

Perhaps.

Few agreed at the time. Jones was judged to be a better choice. Some of us did favor Mills.

IMO, neither QB is a top 10 QB in this league. Mills or Jones would likely have been on the roster in Brissett's role this year. BTW, and maybe Mills would have made the playoffs as a rookie, and maybe not.

Talent does indeed define the ceiling of a player. However, I believe our coaching would have doomed any QB that we drafted that year.

Mills put up better stats in a much worse situation than Mac Jones. He didn't go up the back stairs and complain to the owner his coach was mean, he didn't get a reputation for slapping opposing players in the balls or raising his cleats when he slid. He didn't throw over his 6'5" TE's hands and complain the guy ran the wrong route.

If I were a QB needy team next season, I'd give Davis Mills a shot to win that job. He's bigger and stronger than Mac. He's probably a second tier starter at best, but with a great line, rushing attack and defense you can win with that.

 

[Wozzy]

Yup, we could have drafted Paul instead of Polk, and then drafted your choice of WR at 68. Who were those p[ossibilities at 68?

Of course you would have made a trade and given 68 and a couple of more picks to HOPEFULLY move up to 50.

But let us ignore trades. Paul and who? The we can compare after the season.

If you took Polk, you don't have to take Wallace after, they could have traded back up and possibly also gotten Polk. Hell they possibly could have gotten Wallace later, neither prospect was some perfect specimen or highly touted.

Like I said immediately after the draft, if they left the draft with Maye, Paul, Polk and Baker I would have loved the draft. I had no issue with Polk as a player, OT in the 2nd was a philosophical decision for me and taking the best player available at the biggest position of need.

 

[Wozzy]

In 2008, Pro Football Focus proclaimed that the Pittsburgh Steelers were one of the five worst pass-blocking offensive lines in all of football.
They rolled through the playoffs and beat the Arizona Cardinals in the Super Bowl.

PFF told us Stephon Gilmore had a bad player grade when BB made him one of the highest paid CB's in the NFL... who was correct?

The Giants had the worst offensive line in the NFL at the end of the 2011 season. There wasn’t a single offensive line that surrendered more quarterback pressures that year. Super Bowl Champs!

LT David Diehl played ten years, went to a pro bowl, was voted to an All Pro team and won two Super Bowls. Kevin Booth played 9 years, made 62 starts, he was respectable. Center Kevin Bass played 9 years, made made 84 starts, he was respectable. RG Chris Snee was a two time champion, 3X All Pro, 4X Pro Bowl, All Rookie Team, NY Giants ring of honor... he was pretty good. Kareem McKenzie played 11 years, made 153 starts, he was respectable.

PFF player grades are toilet paper. I'd suggest you listen to Mike Lombardi's story about how he was working for a team, they invited the main guy responsible for providing player grades in to see what the service provided and if they wanted to invest in it. They put the guy in front of a TV and asked him to breakdown film on players. The numbers nerd had zero knowledge about anything, about leverage, about assignment, about scheme, about football... nothing. Lombardi said it was a joke.

The evidence is overwhelming you don't need a great line to win a Super Bowl.

JIm Harbaugh? lots of Super Bowl wins there! See how he does the next few years with that approach LOL.

Tom Brady said he only needs 2 great receiver and will put up 35 points.

I'd love to know when Brady and Mahomes looked mortal.

Mahomes worst year, by far statistically was this past year, he had receivers that dropped balls all over the place, 34 drops vs Purdy having only 14, and you just said they had a great line and now you say the Chiefs had a bad line.

So far, you have no facts to back up your opinion, but you believe it because you want to.

It is a team game; a good line makes a difference like a good anything makes a difference. The QUESTION is receiver's vs line when you have a really good QB, again all the facts overwhelmingly say receivers more important than line.

Failed to provide facts?

Tom Brady got sacked five times against the Giants in the 2007 Super Bowl, in 2009 sacked 3 times by Baltimore for a first round exit, in 2010 on the 14-2 team he got sacked 5 times for a first round exit, in 2013 he got sacked 4 times because their line coach didn't account for the noise in Denver or prepare a silent snap count, it got that line coach fired. Brady's the GOAT.

Mahomes got sacked 4 times by the Pat's D in the 2019 AFC Championship game, he got sacked 3 times by Tampa's D in 2020 Super Bowl, got sacked 4 times by the Bengal's D in the AFC Championship game in 2021 after all his lineman got hurt... Tyreek gets open faster than anyone on the planet, he didn't prevent Mahomes from getting slaughtered and these were all losses. Why?

Joe Burrow in the 2021 Super Bowl, he got sacked 7 times and lost. The next year in the AFC Championship game he got sacked 5 times and lost. Burrow has arguably the best weapons in the game. Tell me again how Ja'Marr Chase and Tee Higgins are so talented and get open quickly so they prevent Burrow from getting sacked... funny stuff. He's suffered two season ending injuries in his short four year career, he's led entire NFL in sacks. He's had better weapons than anyone... give me a break.

Football is won in the trenches. "Receivers prevent QB's from getting sacked" is a terrible take, blocking prevents QB's from getting sacked. Receivers are literally the last person to touch a ball for a pass to be successful. Give me a break.

 

[Wozzy]

We disagree on Paul and Suamataia, I don’t think either are “ blue chip” prospects, I think they were 2nd tier OT’s. And I think Polk was 2nd tier WR, so it was going to be a 2nd tier pick either way, and they believed they could do better by going WR in the 2nd, and then OT in the early 3rd.

They're only "2nd tier" in your mind because they went in the second round. This was considered a very deep draft class for OT, in other draft classes these two would have gone much higher.

But I agree Polk is a second tier WR, he ran a 4.5... he's not Randy Moss or Calvin Johnson, but he could become a very good WR. Javon Baker is nearly identical player, he was taken in the 4th round... they could be brothers.

Like I said, for me it was a philosophical issue and taking OT was taking a bigger position of need first. Also this is just beating a dead horse at this point. The Patriot's bed is made, there's no use crying over it now. I'm a fan of the laundry, once Caeden Wallace is in uniform I'm rooting for him, once Okorafor is starting at LT I'm rooting for him, I'm rooting for Polk, I'm rooting to be wrong. But if I'm not, I'm going to say I told you so...

 

[State]

McDermott on speed dial? The player not coach.

 

[Wozzy]

McDermott on speed dial? The player not coach.

He's a career backup and 32 years old... Okorafor is probably a better option.

The only tackles left out there are fossils. Bakthari hasn't played in much in three years, he's toast. Donovan Smith is probably the best option and his game is falling off at 31 years, he has played in 13 and 12 games the last two seasons... at least he's played some. But the Patriot roster is probably set until camp, they think they have their team.

 

[gobesmug]

PFF told us Stephon Gilmore had a bad player grade when BB made him one of the highest paid CB's in the NFL... who was correct?

LT David Diehl played ten years, went to a pro bowl, was voted to an All Pro team and won two Super Bowls. Kevin Booth played 9 years, made 62 starts, he was respectable. Center Kevin Bass played 9 years, made made 84 starts, he was respectable. RG Chris Snee was a two time champion, 3X All Pro, 4X Pro Bowl, All Rookie Team, NY Giants ring of honor... he was pretty good. Kareem McKenzie played 11 years, made 153 starts, he was respectable.

PFF player grades are toilet paper. I'd suggest you listen to Mike Lombardi's story about how he was working for a team, they invited the main guy responsible for providing player grades in to see what the service provided and if they wanted to invest in it. They put the guy in front of a TV and asked him to breakdown film on players. The numbers nerd had zero knowledge about anything, about leverage, about assignment, about scheme, about football... nothing. Lombardi said it was a joke.

Failed to provide facts?

Tom Brady got sacked five times against the Giants in the 2007 Super Bowl, in 2009 sacked 3 times by Baltimore for a first round exit, in 2010 on the 14-2 team he got sacked 5 times for a first round exit, in 2013 he got sacked 4 times because their line coach didn't account for the noise in Denver or prepare a silent snap count, it got that line coach fired. Brady's the GOAT.

Mahomes got sacked 4 times by the Pat's D in the 2019 AFC Championship game, he got sacked 3 times by Tampa's D in 2020 Super Bowl, got sacked 4 times by the Bengal's D in the AFC Championship game in 2021 after all his lineman got hurt... Tyreek gets open faster than anyone on the planet, he didn't prevent Mahomes from getting slaughtered and these were all losses. Why?

Joe Burrow in the 2021 Super Bowl, he got sacked 7 times and lost. The next year in the AFC Championship game he got sacked 5 times and lost. Burrow has arguably the best weapons in the game. Tell me again how Ja'Marr Chase and Tee Higgins are so talented and get open quickly so they prevent Burrow from getting sacked... funny stuff. He's suffered two season ending injuries in his short four year career, he's led entire NFL in sacks. He's had better weapons than anyone... give me a break.

Football is won in the trenches. "Receivers prevent QB's from getting sacked" is a terrible take, blocking prevents QB's from getting sacked. Receivers are literally the last person to touch a ball for a pass to be successful. Give me a break.

You are overrating the oline. John Hannah is the GOAT LG and never won a ring.

The Cowboys were recently lauded as having the best oline in the league for years and they didn't win a single playoff game.

Every position in football is important but having an elite oline, wr corps, dline, or secondary doesn't guarantee anything.

Having a HOF QB is the best chance at winning a superbowl